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John
`Olu`olu
656 Posts |
 Posted - 05/21/2002 : 4:03:56 PM
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Edited by - jwn on 08/05/2002 13:52:06
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Bopcat
Aloha
5 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2002 : 6:23:41 PM
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Hi jwn,
I've only just started to explore the world of slack key but I've played delta blues slide guitar for awhile and I'll share my approach with you. In Delta blues the tunes are very much identified with a particular musician and each musician has a very idiosyncratic style. It's very difficult for someone like me (an enthusiastic but not very talented amateur) to play a Son House tune just like Son House and then play a Fred McDowell tune just like Fred McDowell. After struggling to play tabbed out tunes note for note and not succeeding I took an entirely different approach. I "deconstructed" the tune. First I would isolate the essential melody and play that single note melody line over and over until I had it memorized. Then I would look over the tab (and listen to the CD) and see how the melody was accompnied. Was there a bass line? Did it alternate or was it monotonic? Which bass notes went with each chord? How were the "holes" in the melody filled - chord strums or a rhythmic lick? From this I built up a very simple arrangement that I could play but still was recognizable as a particular tune. On this basic (very basic) arrangement I would embellish the tune more and more. My reasoning is this - these blues guys didn't (I don't think) just wake up and play a complete tune out of thin air - they started with a melodic idea or lick and played around with it, embellished and added layers and layers of complexity on what started out as a simple idea - we only hear (and try to learn) the finished product. So I try to get into the musician's head and start from a simple idea and see how they added/improved on it. Some stuff is so hard I could never do it - so I leave it out, maybe add an idea of my own or an idea I lifted from someone else. In the end I make up my own arrangement which is very satisfying and it doesn't sound like some pathetic attempt at playing like one of the giants but has it's own beauty and richness since it comes from my own heart, head and hands. Find your own voice.
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Reid
Ha`aha`a
Andorra
1526 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2002 : 11:04:54 AM
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Man Jwn, have you presented a *lot* of bigtime ideas, or what? Each could be a major topic unto itself. I can only give you my own opinion and observations, but that's what you wanted right?
1. The Wall. That may be the most discussed topic on any guitar related newsgroup. I hit the Wall the first time I picked up a guitar. I am not getting better very rapidly and sometimes it seems that I *never* will get much better. I am fairly old, and as I said to my very goood guitarist friend John who has been playing 30 years: "By the time I have played as long as you, I'll be dead." So, my talent is limited and I haven't got lots of time to improve.
But, it doesn't matter. Either you love the sounds you hear and they create an emotion in you that is involuntary or you would do better to take up the unicycle. I sometimes laugh with joy just because of a sound I made with a guitar and sometimes tears flow. If you get that feeling some times, but not others, just play when that happens. There is a neat book called "Music, the Brain and Ecstasy" that nails why humans love music.
There is a lot of internal and societal and competitive pressure to be "good" or "have chops" or to play as well as some pro. Well, I am well beyond that feeling - I like to play well (and Sarah can tell you that I am often my harshest critic in most things, like cooking, or home improvement or whatever when I don't achieve what I expect), but that will never be the reason I play (BTW, I never mean "play"; I always say "practice"). So, what are your priorities? From the rest you say about your life, you seem to have a full one. Why can't slack key be just a nice little part of it. Do you feel more pressure to good at slack key than you do in other aspects of your life. Maybe some thinking about priorities is in order as well as what you get out of playing and what you don't.
You should read "The Art of Practice". It is about lots of different instruments, but the ideas are applicable to guitar.
2.Stale. That may be the *second* most discussed topic on any guitar related newsgroup. Do a Google search on rmmga for "stale" or "bored" or some synonym. Everybody gets stale or bored to some degree, performers included. I do. So I do something else or nothing at all. I change up what I am learning and try something different, or I'll try a new tuning or play a different guitar or take a few days break. Or do some reading trying to figure out the horrible ambiguities of music theory. I can't believe any one person has exhausted all the possibilities of slack key.
Also, Sarah and I have "bought the whole package". We are not guitarists - general purpose guitar players. We will never play another genre of music. Sarah came at this through her love of the language and I came at it through my interest in history and anthroplogy. We are students of Hawai`i: the land, the people, the language, the customs, the hula, the history, the stones and bones and plants and fish. So, slack key is important, but it is only part of what we love and are intrigued by. Do you know the history behind each piece you play? Do you know the life story of the composer(s)? Do you know the meaning(s) of the lyrics? Do you know the kaona? We try to. Not out of a feeling of duty, but from genuine curiosity. You don't have to do as we do, but what we do keeps us entertained, to say the least.
More later, brah. I gotta get off my titanium spine. Good topics.
E malama pono,
Reid
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Bruddah Chrispy
Lokahi
USA
164 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2002 : 11:55:30 AM
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Aloha kakou,
Wow, John, great topic for discussion!
I have noticed that many of the Zen hobbies in my life (Slack Key, Karate, Surfing, an li'dat) have similar characteristics. As I struggle to reach a certain level of competence, it's like climbing a very steep mountain. Then, gradually, I notice that the climb is not so steep; in fact I'm just able to cruise right along. I spend some time admiring the view, playing the songs I know, but not really advancing. Then I see other mountains out there to be climbed but don't know where to begin. That is the wall.
I don't really have a roadmap for scaling all the mountains in front of me (and like you if it envolves practicing scales I'll find a different route). So when I feel like I've been on the plateau too long I do things that are new and fun. I learn a new song. I love being in 'learning mode'. A new song just consumes me, revealing itself slowly and intimately to me. And in learning it, I often learn something new about other songs, or about slack key in general.
Playing with others has also helped me start up the foothills of a different slope. So much of kani ka pila, at least when Derek, Pauline, and I get together, is just sitting around having conversations like dis between songs. And listening to how others attempt to explain how they think about music is very enlightening. Pauline and Derek know so much more than I do in the realm of music theory that I feel I'm learning through osmosis rather than doing scales. 'Course every now an den they really start going down a rat hole as to whether a particular fingering is a G minor diminished with a triple lutz, but wen dat happens I just pick up my guitar an play. 
I've got more to add but I'm supposed to be in one meeting right now. 
Come join us sometime, brah!
Aloha a hui hou,
Chris P.
Edited by - Bruddah Chrispy on 05/22/2002 11:56:38 |
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Admin
Pupule
USA
4551 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2002 : 12:09:48 PM
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The dreaded wall. My opinion about the learning process whether it is guitar or other things is that it is cyclical... a series of peaks, valley and plateaus. In that sense, there is not one wall but countless walls along the way. Through practice, playing with others, playing in front of people, you climb over each one (sometimes quickly, sometimes slowly.)
The beauty of a folk tradition like slack key is that it is not bogged down by rigid rules like classical guitar. Your teacher will not tell you to practice your scales over and over. You do not have to play the piece precisely as the composer wrote it. Folk traditions are much looser. Play it as you hear it, feel it. Play what is in your soul and you cannot go wrong. Uncle Ray says, "If you play from your heart, the sound comes out beautiful."
With this in mind, you should not always emulate a song exactly as it was recorded. Easier said than done from a student's perspective. When you are learning you work hard at playing a song exactly as your favorite artist does, because you want to get it right. Or perhaps you are afraid of getting it wrong. I suspect that a proficient player worries less about playing it exactly as someone else. Professional slack key artists often play the same song differently every time. So I think there is not a black and white answer to your question. It depends where you are in your playing and what your motives are.
Personally, I feel like I'm hitting a wall all the time. I have a small repertoire and confess that I too often learn parts of songs instead of whole songs. Beyond that, I hate sitting down with a book of tab and dedicating the necessary time to learn an entire song. Playing is fun. Sitting down by yourself with tablature is not, at least not for me. I think kanikapila is a great way to learn. If only I could go down to the Bailey House to jam every week in Maui. Or if I had a teacher to help open my repertoire more quickly. If you and your friends all know the same songs, it's time to throw the books to the side. Kanikapila is really its own animal in this learning discussion. Learning to compliment someone else or take a lead is a challenge in itself. If you feel like your playing is getting stale, practice the same song with your buddies. Play it slow, play it fast, and then play it with a swing feel. You could play the same song 50 different ways just to keep things interesting!
Back to the wall. Although I feel like I'm always hitting the wall, when I think longer term I realize that I have learned a lot compared to a year ago. I've learned new songs, new tunings, etc. Part of hitting and getting through the wall is perception. I used to study Taekwondo and similarly felt myself improving, taking a step back and plateauing for long periods. The beauty about slack key is that when you mess up, no one kicks the wind out of you. Enough writing for now... back to work.
Andy |
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marzullo
`Olu`olu
USA
923 Posts |
Posted - 05/23/2002 : 10:09:16 AM
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i sure relate to this dicussion... i don't think that i can add much more technical input.
but, i'd like to offer a toast to those who suffer as much, if not more, than we do. here's to our squeezes, who listen to us piss and moan about how we're not improving, who put up with us practicing first thing in the morning and last thing at night, and who defensively pick up the guitar or ukulele themselves to remain part of the crazy life we weave for ourselves. here's to all who listen to the same passage of music, played over and over, with the same mistake coming up again as sure as the sun rises, followed by a muttered oath, a pause, and yet another try.
at least we're not hitting the wall playing the bagpipes. (well, i'm not at least. i do haul out the harmonica every now and then and i have an accordion that i'm eyeing, but desertion is such an ugly word...)
aloha,
keith
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Admin
Pupule
USA
4551 Posts |
Posted - 05/23/2002 : 10:38:09 AM
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Well said Keith. I agree 100%.
"Here's to our squeezes..." Not only for putting up with the guitar and `ukulele but also for putting up with my hours down in the basement spent on the PC! 
Aloha nui loa,
Andy |
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Bruddah Chrispy
Lokahi
USA
164 Posts |
Posted - 05/23/2002 : 11:47:22 AM
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Aloha kakou,
While John has stepped off his soap box for a sec, I'll hop up on mine.
There seems to be a thread that appears here and in other topics on the board concerning how close we need to follow the original song. Well, if that's the path someone happens to be on, great. I walk that path occasionally myself. But we really don't have to.
Personally, I'm playing guitar because I like the feeling. I like the feeling of music coming out of me via the instrument. I like the feeling of closing my eyes and just letting it flow. And if, while I'm doing that, I'm not playing the particular peice the way Gabby, or Sonny, or Keola, would have played it, well, so what? For that matter, does anyone seriously believe that they always played the song the same way? I've heard Led Ka`apana play Radio Hula at least a half dozen times and I don't think it's ever sounded the same way twice.
I guess what I'm saying is the same thing I say about Zen. I don't know if what I'm doing meets someone else's definition, but I like what I'm doing. If the definition really matters, then I'm willing to call what I'm doing something else.
I'll call it me.
Aloha a hui hou,
Chris P. |
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Sarah
`Olu`olu
571 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2002 : 2:34:37 PM
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Aloha kakou,
There's an 'olelo no'eau in Hawaiian that I am very fond of. I think it applies to the wall and a lot of other things in life.
"Pipi ka wahie, ho'onui i ka pulupulu" -- When the firewood sputters, add more kindling.
For me, this means, that when I get bogged down, or stale, or whatever, I should look around and get some new input -- "fresh material", in a broad sense. I also like the way the saying's imagery of sparks and fire can allude to passion - any passion - and inspiration, both of which relate to whatever one is intensely interested in.
Aloha,
Sarah
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Bopcat
Aloha
5 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2002 : 3:06:53 PM
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Hi John,
I'm a guy, so you can use the male pronoun.
Your comment "playing has become a chore" has prompted me to reply again.
I'm 50 years old. I started playing guitar in my early 20's. Played ragtime and blues - not terribly well but it was fun and my chief way to unwind. As I got into my late 30's I developed carpal tunnel syndrome in my left hand. I had to quit playing guitar altogether and had surgery in 1991. I tried some other instruments to replace the guitar. Ultimately I ended up playing clarinet - it was comfortable to play and I had a beautiful tone right off the bat. I've always enjoyed jazz and as I improved I began to play jazz and standard tunes. At first I played them as written, but after a while I decided I would learn to improvise just like the real jazz guys. I began to practice scales and arpeggios in all 12 keys to ii-V-I progressions. I bought hundreds of dollars of play along CDs and instruction books. In retrospect this was a completely unrealistic goal for me - I just didn't have the talent or the time to do what is one of the most difficult things a musician can do (listen to Coltrane play "Giant Steps"). After a while music became a chore - I wasn't making any discernible progress (I was practicing 2 hours a day) I was making myself crazy. So one day I just stopped - I put my clarinet back in the case boxed up all my jazz stuff and stuck it in the closet.
Which leads me to where I am today. Blues (particularly acoustic blues) was my first musical "love." So I went back to the blues. I began playing slide because it didn't hurt my hand. From slide I discovered lap style and Hawaiian music and slack key. Now I play for fun. I play what I like and I play it as well as I can and I play it with my voice. I'm enjoying my playing more than ever.
To conclude; I was watching a special about Kurt Cobain on VH-1 one night when I couldn't sleep (I'm not a Nirvana fan by any means). A number of musicians were interviewed and asked to comment on Cobain's music and his death. Neil Young said he had talked to Cobain and told him to relax a little because (Young's words) "...after all, man...it's just tunes..." So, John remember...it's just tunes.
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marzullo
`Olu`olu
USA
923 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2002 : 7:55:48 PM
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sarah: quote:
Pipi ka wahie, ho'onui i ka pulupulu.
bopcat: quote:
remember...it's just tunes.
what great words of advice. agreeing with sarah, i try to push myself in multiple directions so that when i fatigue on one path, i try another. right now i am working on both ukulele and guitar. and bopcat's point is right, you need to keep it all in perspective. all i have to do for that is to play for my parents and watch 'em squirm (they like it, but i've found many people, my parents included, who are uncomfortable when someone plays music around them. maybe they're afraid that i'll ask them for a tip when i finish.)
this site has a great wisdom/word ratio.
aloha,
keith
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aplenty
Akahai
62 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2002 : 6:30:37 PM
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A few quick comments/ideas:
* get outside or somewhere in nature to play... beach is good... sunrise or sunset is awesome...
* play (perform) ... professional or not... get to a hospital, assisted living, or any place where people will truly appreciate what you already do... they won't be worried about what you can't do yet
* time to visit Hawaii and reconnect directly
E Ola Mau Ki Ho'alu!!
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Turtle Song
Aloha
47 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2002 : 8:52:46 PM
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Hiya, aplenty, welcome to the board!!
In case you didn’t recognize me, it’s Deborah, from Anchorage!
aka Deborah |
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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2002 : 03:10:54 AM
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Interesting discussion. My life is muich less philosophical when it comes to music. I practice 1 - 2 hours per day. (Yes, I work full time and have a family, too.) If I don't play, I start getting "crazy." I haven't hit the wall (which means give it up time for me) However, I often get plateaus -- places I feel stale. For me, I just get out a CD or two, hear something I want to do, and it's a whole new game. Since I don't live in Paradise, I have to rely on CD's. As to technique. Sorry, but I have little patience for anyone who cries about not being able to do anything well if they don't want to pay their dues and learn the skills necessary for the task at hand. I won many professional awards at woodcarving, but I spent hundreds of hours learning how to use my tools, my eyes and my consciousness, and getting them all together. Same for my profession. Same for slack key. Nowadys, I either hear something in my head -- and realize I don't have technique to play it -- Then I hit the technique books and learn the skills. (I spend about 20 minutes a day on strectches and technique building. Boring, but it pays of big time when I get to the fun playing.) As for copying someone playing. It's a great way to learn. My personal favorites are Uncle Willie K. and Peter Moon. Ozzie Kotani told me he learned a lot trying to get Peter Moon's work down. Boy, I can second that. (One of his knicknames was bionic thumb.) I'm working on his intro to Kawika now. Dynamite. I don't, however, play someone else's arrangement in public unless I give credit. By the way, if you have difficulty in picking up songs from CD's, you might want to try Traum's tape on the subject, as well as investing $60 or so for a digital sampler -- that way you can slow the licks down and still keep the right tone. ) Other ways of breaking through the plateau -- I try to arrange a mele for slack key. Just did Amy Gilliom/Uncle Wilie's "Hale Ali'i." I picked up a whole new slant on the parallel sixth run. Played with it a while. Tried it out in a few other songs. Another great challenge is Keali'i Reichel -- partly because of his sustained notes while singing, partly because of his liking for Eb. Theresa Bright, Na Leo, Kekui Kanahele -- lots of great material. I also pay close attention to hula -- using the Merrie Monarch highlights series -- To me hula rhytms are touchstones -- and I find it challenging to keep close to them. Then there's the whole other realm -- I recently bought "The Magic Box" by guitarist John Williams -- his renditions of African songs. What fantastic rhythms. I've worked up two of those pieces just to learn the rhythms and bring some of that into the slack key bass lines. Now I'm also working with a teacher to bring in some singing. I'd like to be able to add maybe 2 or 3 sung songs into a 50 minute set.
In short -- too much stuff to learn, to try, to have fun with. Just not enough time in a day to play. Keeping old repetroire up while learning new pieces is a challenge. I play my "old stuff" on a totating schedule for about a half hour, then go on to new stuff. I also try to work in some time for just improvising -- a lot less embarrasing at home than when playing with others.
Sorry for the lengthy talk.
Raymond
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Bruddah Chrispy
Lokahi
USA
164 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2002 : 5:47:13 PM
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John wen write:
quote:
Zen surfing? Whoa... your method of discovering understanding is a bit different than mine, young grasshoppa. Okay, okay... words are meaningless and logic is irrelevant except to the individual using them, but crashing down a 40 footer is, well... hey, maybe you're right... that definitely would qualify as a form of "awakening". As in rude. 
Da key is to avoid da crashing.
quote:
But then... you got serious on me. I tossed out the concept of losing one's way. Going stale. I don't think I ever said, "gotta do this... gotta do that". If it was taken that way, I'm sorry... I didn't mean to proselytize.
Nah nah nah nah nah, brah. I didn't mean that *you* said dat, or even anybody wen say dat. There's been hints of that kine talk, an I was jus using your forum to pontificate.
Aloha a hui hou,
Chris P. |
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donkaulia
Lokahi
249 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2002 : 6:10:38 PM
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hey guys and ladies.....if you come into a situation and hit the socalled "Wall"....backup, rethink and re-create. There is nothing better sounding than the sound of "YOU, YOURSELF & THE GUITAR". Keep this in mind.....try not to copy or micmic at a performance....but...in secret or in practice...to the best you can at copying but wind off of the exactness.......mainthing you practice on being perfect...practice the riffs and tones of making mistakes and identify these mistakes so that when the actual performance is in session....your heart, mind and soul has the knowledge of exactness and understands where the mistakes are and don't go there.
just a note from my heart to all....the wall is just a barrier to remind you to rethink and regroup.
Aloha, Don I play 7 nights a week and perfect each tone, song and riff each time to gain own perfection. That's 364 times in a year ... nothing wrong with that?
donkaulia |
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