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Karl Monetti
`Olu`olu
USA
756 Posts |
 Posted - 11/14/2005 : 1:34:02 PM
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A friend and I have started playing some local venues. Me on slack key, he in standard tuning or slack key backing me up. We have been asked for copies of our CD. As if!!! Well, my friend has some recording time at a studio coming to him, so we thought we might knock off a CD. We currently are playing about 15 slack key songs. We need to find out about copyrite laws, etc.. I know this subject has been covered before, so can anyone point me in the right direction? I have already asked one person for permission to do one of his songs, but need to know how to contact the folks i don't know, and to find the composers of some of the tunes
Hope you can help
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Karl
Frozen North |
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Russell Letson
`Olu`olu
USA
504 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2005 : 6:50:26 PM
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The usual drill for getting mechanical licenses is to go through the Harry Fox Agency (http://www.harryfox.com/index.jsp), which collects the money that eventually goes to the composers and publishers. But a good bit of the material that might go on a slack key album doesn't seem to be registered there, and (if I recall one of Peter Medeiros's posts correctly) might not even be covered by copyright thanks to various technicalities and errors of omission.
You can use the Songfile search on the Harry Fox website to see whether a tune is registered--"Punahele," for example, is registered, but Leonard Kwan's "`Ophihi Moemoe" isn't. (Chet Atkins' version is, though.) I got no hits for Sonny or Leonard, one for "Pahinui" (one of Martin's songs), none for Dennis Kamakahi, Eddie Kamae, or Ozzie Kotani. I'm not sure how they license their material--Peter M. probably has a good idea.
Interesting oddity: There are two entries for "Hi`ilawe," one credited to John Kalapana and published by Criterion Music, and the other to "Kawao Cockett" and published by Accadia Music. (Peter M. Had an interesting post about the song's publishing history back in September.)
The Songfile search engine, by the way, is remarkably dumb--put in "Leonard Kwan" and you get every composer whose first name is Leonard, and "Kamae" gets you M. Kamen and all sorts of other guys whose names start with "Ka." Query Ozzie Kotani and you find Ozzie Nelson and Ozzie Osbourne, among irrelevant others.
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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2005 : 7:00:37 PM
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| Just because the song is not listed with Fox, Ascap or Bmi does not mean it is not under copyright and that mechanical royalties are not due. It just means it isn't listed with one of those agencies. You should try to determine the copyright holder and status even if not listed. |
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chunky monkey
Ha`aha`a
USA
1022 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2005 : 05:55:05 AM
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Contact Dennis Kamakahi directly for anything that he's written. He has a website. He's also on the TP as Naukilo. He regularly answers his emails. Even if you get a copyright ok, it's still appropriate to get his permission to use his music.
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Ianui
Lokahi
USA
298 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2005 : 08:44:57 AM
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Russell The song Hi'lawe is in public domain. What you see copyrighted on most songs is a version produced by a particular artist. You cannot copy that version, but copyright for the song itself is no longer valid.
There are different copyrights one MUST be aware of. There are copyright for a song as well as a copyright for Publishing. There could even be a different one for recording. So, someone may have copyrighted the song but assigned a publishing right to someone else. In that case you would need permission to play the song from one source and to publish/record it from another.
The Estate of Leonard Kwan (children) has copyright on his songs. I wrote them requesting OK to publish a song and received no response from them at all.
It is not easy to find out who has what on Hawaiian Music. My source spent considerable dollars in attorney fees and time researching and determining what was in public domain and what was not.
Here is a source hat explaines what the processes are
http://fairuse.stanford.edu/Copyright_and_Fair_Use_Overview/chapter1/index.html
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Edited by - Ianui on 11/15/2005 09:13:51 AM |
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Karl Monetti
`Olu`olu
USA
756 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2005 : 09:06:48 AM
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Would it be appropriate for me to list the songs we wish to use on this forum, and have any of you reply as to the current knowledge on each tune? or is that asking too much of you guys, essentially doing the work for me?
Of course i would not ask anyone to go out ant find this info for me, but if someone already knows the status of a song and would not mind sharing that information,it would be greatly appreciated.
Let me know how you feel about me posting our set list |
Karl
Frozen North |
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Ianui
Lokahi
USA
298 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2005 : 09:21:45 AM
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Karl I'd love to help but it took me 4 months of writting letters and going through various bureaucratic processes to get clearences on just a couple songs.
As you are performing and not publishing a song I would look at "Permissions" rather than copyright. Look that up on the website I referenced in my last post. Thats the easiest thing to do.
I can tell you that the songs on Slack Tracks are in Public Domain. You just cannot copy our Tabs or our versions of the song as we have copyrighted them. However if you want to use Slack Tracks as Backing for a performance we can give permission to do that as long as you credit Slack Tracks in your performance. Anyone who does that should send an e-mail requesting that, so we can keep track of who is legally using them. |
Edited by - Ianui on 11/15/2005 09:27:39 AM |
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Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2005 : 12:34:09 PM
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What Karl is asking involves something distinct from copyright, namely clearance & royalty payments for recording.
The bottom line is that once a song has been recorded once, anyone can record it --providing they pay the royalties. Or make a reasonable attempt to do so...
Russell correctly steered him to the Harry Fox Agency -- you can do an online search and even get a special license for short run CDs.
If they don't have a song, the pono thing to do is simply figure out what the royalty would be (number of copies X the current statutory rate) and send a check to the copyright holder, songwriter, songwriter's family or best friend or whoever else you can figure out.
By all means contact Dennis, or Keola, or whoever directly if you can't find one of their songs at the Fox Agency.
Or, like I used to say to people that wanted to record my stuff, just stick a dollar in the hat of the next street musican you see...
So don't get bogged down in this -- just record the CD, try to do the right thing with the money, and have fun.
Don's situation was different because he was involved in publishing the songs -- as in, creating a printed copy in the form of TAB. Very different kettle of fish.
cheers,
Mark
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Russell Letson
`Olu`olu
USA
504 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2005 : 12:49:37 PM
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If I understand the rules correctly, performers do *not* need to obtain permissions or licenses to use copyrighted material *in performance*--that is the job of the venue, which should be signed up with the appropriate licensing agencies (ASCAP, BMI, SESCAC, et al.). The venue pays a blanket fee to the agencies, the agencies pay the copyright holders, and the performer should have no worries. A recording offered for sale is a different matter, requiring not permission in the ordinary sense of the word but payment of the fee for a "compulsory license" (for material that has already been commercially recorded--for unrecorded material, you do need permission of the copyright holder). I'm not sure what this means for copyright holders who haven't signed up with Harry Fox--they can't legally refuse a mechanical license or charge more than the statutory fee (again, if I understand the rules correctly), but that doesn't mean that a copyright holder can't be difficult or unresponsive or perverse, no matter what the law says.
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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2005 : 3:45:28 PM
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Sure they can be buggers, but the bottom line is that once it has been recorded you do not need anyone's permission to record it, you just own them the mechanical. Difficult/unresponsive doesn't really mean a thing. I'm not sure what perverse means. They can be p*ss*d at you and generate some ill will, so you have to weight the pros and cons and decide. Printing lyrics and/or tab/music, as Mark says, is a different kettle.
This, of course, raises the issue of "ownership" across different cultures. In traditional Hawaiian culture, a song written/given to someone "belongs" to them. The copyright lawyer I checked with said that as far as he and his staff could tell, that understanding of ownership did not have precedent in US Courts. As he put it, if they record the song and, therefore potentially make money off it they enter the legal arena that governs us all.
This can be a difficult issue, and each person must decide for him or herself where they stand. |
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Karl Monetti
`Olu`olu
USA
756 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2005 : 09:00:12 AM
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Thank you all for the input. I will do as Mark said; "So don't get bogged down in this -- just record the CD, try to do the right thing with the money, and have fun. "
I am in the process of cantacting all the writers of the songs that i can find and will do as they wish. Really, this i meant only to be a small run of CDs for local sale and personal give-aways, so i won't get too worked up over it. I just want to do the correct thing. |
Karl
Frozen North |
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Kiwini
Lokahi
USA
203 Posts |
Posted - 11/18/2005 : 3:13:16 PM
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OK, BTW great question Karl, it spurned a few question that I have so here are some question of a different kettle.
Are there any concerns that one must consider when recording their own originals?
If someone does have their own originals, how do they copyright the material?
Is it required to have tablature and is a scribbled-in copyright valid? |
Me Ke Aloha,
Steve |
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hapakid
Luna Ho`omalu
USA
1533 Posts |
Posted - 11/18/2005 : 4:29:49 PM
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Hi Kiwini,
I think what you're talking about is registering your copyright with the US Copyright office. As soon as you create a work, it's yours. You should put the copyright symbol (a "C" inside a circle) on it with a date, too, but the registration of the copyright gives you specific ways to protect your rights, including the recovery of attorneys fees and a statutory amount of damages in case of an illegal copy. To register the copyright, you need a form from the copyright office (I think it's copyright.gov) and there is a modest fee, something like $40. Once it's mailed it, you have a registered copyright. To license the work so others may have a way to find you and pay you for it, I think you need to become part of a BMI, ASCAP or SESAC, who accept payments from radio stations and venues where music is played. Others might know more about those organizations.
Jesse Tinsley |
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Kapila Kane
Ha`aha`a
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 11/19/2005 : 02:45:19 AM
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Also, and it's been back in the mid-90's, we covered our copywrites with a blanket "collection" copywrite--mailed in. Saves registering each individual piece at the 40 dollar rate.
Then I did a lifetime publishing registration for $100 with BMI...
they must be doing some of this by web now, but haven't done it recently.
I did get some small songwriter and publishing for airplay in Canada...and I only registered after most of my airplay had passed...also aired mostly on public radio, community, and college stations, which may not generate or be monitered by the powers that sample and multiply the formulas.
It's usually not big money...but a tune can surprise everyone...including the writer... the right tune that passes into a film, tv or larger radio format could make that "throw away ditty" a more significant entity.
Hi'ilawe was listed as "traditional" on an IZ album I listened to today...
Arrangement copyrights only apply if you significantly copy the exact arrangement...
Not a lawyer, but I play one on talk radio.
Make a good faith effort and get some "tape" rolling...
and cook up an original or two.
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hapakid
Luna Ho`omalu
USA
1533 Posts |
Posted - 11/19/2005 : 06:19:25 AM
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The Stanford library site listed in a link above mentioned that virtually everything created before 1922 is in the public domain.
Maybe in the future the TP.net gang could produce a compilation of songs from that early era and we could distribute it freely among ourselves or whomever wanted it.
Jesse Tinsley |
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Leonard
Lokahi
USA
124 Posts |
Posted - 11/21/2005 : 05:29:01 AM
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| Just an interesting aside to Kapila Kane. You're right about not being able to predict the result of a given song. Mel Torme went over to Bill Wells' house in July of some year in the late 40's. Bill had been trying to make himself cooler (pre-AC) by writing the lyrics for a Christmas song. He was out when Torme arrived. Torme found the note, started working, Wells came home, and they wrote the song in about 35 minutes. The Christmas Song, aka Chestnuts Roasting on an Open Fire. I think Torme lived off the royalties ever after. I think it was the #1 ASCAP Christmas song in 2004 and maybe in other years. Who'd have guessed? LRR |
Be the change that you wish to see in the world. M. Gandhi |
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