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JeffC
Lokahi
USA
189 Posts |
 Posted - 02/22/2007 : 08:59:33 AM
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I'm toying with the idea of adding electronics to my guitar. I admit at this point the importance of electronics has to be considered pretty low. For the recording I'm doing to track my progress, I still have to do most of that at night after the kids are asleep, and it is pretty easy to find a quiet place then. But microphone position/placement is important even at this level--if it's close, but not right the bass is boomier than I want and if I'm not listening through the headphones, I don't know until it's done. And when I played at the AMC ho`ike a couple of years ago, the bass sound out of the stage monitors was so boomy to me that it was distracting and rattled this amateur's concentration.
So, I have some minor excuses to consider adding electronics. My "local" music store in Redding says it is no big deal, they do it all the time, it's easy. The guy's eyes lit up when I even asked about it. I think I could see a little drool at the corner of his mouth...
But it requires, among other things, cutting a hole in the side of my beloved Martin  .
Any opinions out there on how worthwhile this could be? Pros and cons, risks... (one con I can think of is that the wiring inside my Ovation tends to slap and rattle around and I'm not crazy about that). Any brands or models that you are familiar with and like or dislike.
Thanks
Jeff
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Jeff
Making Trout Country safe for Slack Key! |
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wdf
Ha`aha`a
USA
1153 Posts |
Posted - 02/22/2007 : 10:14:32 AM
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| There are magnetic soundhole pickups like the L.R. Baggs M1, and others that don't require any modification to your guitar - and they can be moved from guitar to guitar (as long as it's a steel string guitar). |
Dusty |
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cpatch
Ahonui
USA
2187 Posts |
Posted - 02/22/2007 : 11:07:07 AM
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You don't have to have a hole cut in the side of the guitar...you can use a pickup with outboard electronics that only needs the existing hole in the bottom of the guitar (where the strap peg is screwed on) to be enlarged slightly.
The only problem with the soundhole pickups are that they're magnetic (which affects the sound quality) and also can mar the surface of the guitar at the edge of the soundhole if they're not mounted carefully. You also have to deal with a cord coming out of the soundhole rather than out of the end of the guitar. I have one and personally don't care for it for these reasons. |
Craig
My goal is to be able to play as well as people think I can. |
Edited by - cpatch on 02/22/2007 11:09:20 AM |
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hapakid
Luna Ho`omalu
USA
1533 Posts |
Posted - 02/22/2007 : 2:40:51 PM
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There are a few pickup/preamp systems that position a tiny volume knob just inside the soundhole, so nothing shows on the outside of the guitar. Otherwise, you can put in a passive pickup and add a preamp, usually a small box that hangs on your belt or sits by your amp.
Jesse Tinsley |
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rendesvous1840
Ha`aha`a
USA
1055 Posts |
Posted - 02/22/2007 : 5:11:11 PM
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| I'm using an Audio- Technica PRO 7A condenser mike for sound reinforcement. It comes with a clip to attatch it at the soundhole. It also has a tie clip for vocal use. The sound is much more natural than the magnetic pickups I tried. They were more electric than I wanted. The downside of the PRO 7 is monitors tend to feedback when I jam with rock playing friends. I solve that by placing the monitor behind me when I can. Folk music volume levels haven't been a problem.It doesn't require any modification to (or holes in) the instrument, and I take it off when I'm not on stage. If possible, listen before you buy any type of pickup or mike. Some may emphasize more bass, other's more treble. If you're playing at open mikes or doing gigs, you're probably using a P.A. set-up. The E.Q. adjustments in the P.A. can make a world of difference in your sound, especially if the person at the controls knows their job. I'm not too good at that yet, but I hope to improve. |
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cpatch
Ahonui
USA
2187 Posts |
Posted - 02/22/2007 : 5:31:53 PM
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If you do end up using outboard electronics, keep an eye on the new stuff coming from Fishman:
http://www.fishman.com/news/press-releases.asp?id=56 |
Craig
My goal is to be able to play as well as people think I can. |
Edited by - cpatch on 02/22/2007 5:33:12 PM |
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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 02/22/2007 : 6:28:17 PM
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I use the Baggs dual source -originally cause Keola used it- it has the tiny slide switch that gets attached to soundhole -- but I use velcro so it actually attaches UNDER the guitar next to the soundhole -- anyway -- I first used it with a very modest guitar and it made the guitar sound much better than it was. I now have another one on my custom made Pimentel, and I love it. I used the Baggs Para Acoustic external preamp. I love the set up.
2 friends have cut in fishman preamps, and both claim they would never do it again - changed the sound/volume too much. |
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Leonard
Lokahi
USA
124 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2007 : 05:48:00 AM
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| I'm no expert, but I second the ideas that have pointed out there is no need to cut into the sides of your Martin to install a volume/EQ panel. I have a Baggs Element Active (undersaddle) in one Martin and a Western (dual pickups under the bridge inside the guitar) in another. Both are mounted entirely inside the guitar (relatively easy to remove, in professional hands) and the Baggs has a volume knob inside the soundhole, and a little bag with a battery, which I fish out to replace on rare occasions. I think they sound better than the usual magnetic soundhole pickup, which as someone has pointed out adds more "electric" sound. The wires run inside the guitar to a cable connector, which is mounted where the strap knob used to be. Some small modification in that strap knob hole usually needs to be made to fit the cable connector. (It's often a tapered hole for a tapered strap knob, and it needs to be opened up and made parallel for the pickup connector.) Then I plug into a Baggs Para acoustic DI box, which gives me some EQ and phase possibilities and additional small amplification (it's basically a preamp). The soundhole magnetic pickups are OK, with the advantages (can be moved to other instruments , ease of installation) and disadvantages (sound quality, possible small blemishes to soundhole, cable coming out the soundhole) pointed out in other people's posts. The internal pickups (undersaddle, underbridge or internal microphone) are a middle ground between the soundhole magnetic pickup and the factory-installed pickup systems, designed for a specific guitar model. LRR |
Be the change that you wish to see in the world. M. Gandhi |
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Fran Guidry
Ha`aha`a
USA
1579 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2007 : 07:34:44 AM
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I hang around a few different acoustic guitar discussion sites. The current buzz seems to favor the K&K Pure Western Mini. This is a passive three element pickup which is glued to the bridge plate. No cutting required. They have optional external and internal preamps and other components, but the basic Pure Western Mini does a fine job all by itself. http://www.kksound.com/
Fishman is the big dog in pickups. They offer various soundhole magnetics (Uncle Raymond Kane favors a soundhole mag pickup, by the way) and the Ellipse system which blends an undersaddle pickup with an internal mic without cutting holes in the guitar. They have also developed a modeling system, the Aura, that some people really like. http://www.fishman.com/
Baggs also has a soundhole magnetic as well as soundboard transducers and undersaddles along with internal and external preamps. http://www.lrbaggs.com/home_html/
One of my favorites is the Pickup The World systems. I've used their undersaddle and soundboard systems in various guitars and been happy with the results. http://www.pick-uptheworld.com/
There are many more systems out there. One place to get a bit of a grip on the subject is Doug Young's pickup comparison site: http://www.dougyoungguitar.com/pickuptest.htm
In short, you can have a pickup without cutting a hole in the side of your guitar. Nowadays, you can even do it without reaming your end-pin hole (see the "vintage jack" at the PUTW site).
Fran |
E ho`okani pila kakou ma Kaleponi
Slack Key Guitar in California - www.kaleponi.com
Slack Key on YouTube
Homebrewed Music Blog |
Edited by - Fran Guidry on 02/23/2007 07:35:47 AM |
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Podagee57
Lokahi
USA
280 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2007 : 07:44:14 AM
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| My luthier has 2 guitars that have several different electronic pick-ups installed in them. He uses these guitars so people can hear what each unit sounds like. Check out a local luthier, he can advise you on how they work, how they're installed, and what is the latest and greatest, and may just have a couple of sample instruments for you to listen to. |
What? You mean high "E" is the TOP string. No way dude! That changes everything! |
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RWD
`Olu`olu
USA
850 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2007 : 07:50:14 AM
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I too have experience boomy bass with mic recording. Recently I have been adding a line-in from the undersaddle pickups on my guitars. I think that blending the mic with a line-in improves the recording. I also have a prefference for undersaddle over contact pickups or internal mics. Undersaddles don't pick up finger noises and squeeks like the others do.
Bob |
Bob |
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Reid
Ha`aha`a
Andorra
1526 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2007 : 08:17:20 AM
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Bob, maybe you already know all this, but the boomy bass from mic recording can be taken out by most of the recording/editing/tracking software that has been talked about here. First set a pretty big parametric peak with a modest Q (width) and sweep it between, say, 250 and 125 until you locate the boom and it drives you nuts. Then set a parametric EQ notch around at the same frequency and increase notch depth until it goes away. Fiddle with the Q so you only get the boom removed. Boom can also be reduced during tracking/recording by proper mic placement farther away from the lower bout.
I also record a pickup track, on the suggestion of all the good sound guys here, but only to get a clear bass and string attack. I cut off the frequency of that track before it does any damage to the mid range. So it sorta looks like a shelf, by itself.
...Reid |
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RWD
`Olu`olu
USA
850 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2007 : 08:33:13 AM
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Much appreciated Reid.
Mahalo
Bob |
Bob |
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Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2007 : 08:35:28 AM
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quote:
And when I played at the AMC ho`ike a couple of years ago, the bass sound out of the stage monitors was so boomy to me that it was distracting and rattled this amateur's concentration.
Welcome to the wonderful world of playing live. Here's what's going on - in many cases, anyway:
In most situations, you will be hearing sound coming from the back of the main speakers -- this can even be the case if you have a monitor wedge at your feet. Since the mains are pointed away from you, and since bass frequencies are less directional than the highs (simplified explanation...) you'll hear a boomy roar. Unless you are used to playing on stage, it sounds as if your guitar is EQed all wrong. You just have to learn to trust your sound engineer to make it right for the house.
Now adding a pickup to your guitar won't have anything to do with this -- it's a function of the way sound works. Even if you plug in, you'll still hear more bass than anything else when you are on stage.
There are other reasons to add electronics -- but be aware that this isn't one of 'em.
quote:
I too have experience boomy bass with mic recording
And that's a function of mic placement and, to a lesser extent, your room. Try aiming the mic looking up the fingerboard, about 8" from where the neck joins the soundboard. Good place to start.
Few acoustic guitar pick-up systems sound good enough to use as the only source. The usual way to use 'em is to add a little upper mids to the mic tracks. But be sure to offset the direct signal back a bit to avoid phase cancelation problems! Otherwise, the waveforms from the pickup will interfere with those from the mic, and it can actually make your recorded guitar sound worse.
Mark |
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JeffC
Lokahi
USA
189 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2007 : 10:11:02 AM
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| Thanks one and all. You guys are great! I know for sure now at least I'm not gonna let anybody cut a hole in the guitar. I wish I had local luthiers around here that might have instruments with multiple systems, but I don't. Mark, any recommendations in the Ashland/Medford area? |
Jeff
Making Trout Country safe for Slack Key! |
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rendesvous1840
Ha`aha`a
USA
1055 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2007 : 4:28:33 PM
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I think Acoustic Guitar Magazine had an article about adding electronics to your guitar a few years ago. I'll try to find the mag, and see what it said. It's still here, I don't throw nuttin' guitar related away, just ask Wanda.
Paul |
"A master banjo player isn't the person who can pick the most notes.It's the person who can touch the most hearts." Patrick Costello |
Edited by - rendesvous1840 on 02/23/2007 4:29:07 PM |
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