| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Absolute
Lokahi
275 Posts |
 Posted - 09/17/2007 : 08:47:37 AM
|
I've got a lot of question with regard to the logic behind chords.
1. How does one establish, in general terms, the difference between how a dominant 7th chord is formed and how a major 7th chord is formed?
2. If I want to form a basic major chord triad, I start with the base note, and using a generic musical scale (C,C#,D,D#,E,F,F#,G,G#,A,A#,B) move first four steps up to get the second note, then seven steps up to get the third note. Is this a generally correct approach? (I know that with minor chords, I find myself having to use the chord scale printed out.)
3. Can I use the same scale from question 2 to identify the fourth note of the dominant and major 7th chords?
|
Thank you. |
|
|
Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2007 : 09:29:09 AM
|
Hi Ab -
The first thing you need to do is to learn how chords relate to the concept of key. So, taking your second question first:
You cannot build chords from the chromatic scale (Note: You can, but then we are talking about 20th Century art music & tone rows... and that's not relevant.)
Chords have to relate to a specific major scale. Take G-
The notes are G-A-B-C-D-E-F#-G
A chord is a the root, third and fifth. So a G chord is G- B -D; an A min is A-C-E, a C is C-E-G and so on.
quote:
generic musical scale (C,C#,D,D#,E,F,F#,G,G#,A,A#,B) move first four steps up to get the second note, then seven steps up to get the third note
You are missing the point. First off, this isn't a generic musicial scale. It's the chromatic scale -- all 12 tones. Second -- what you are calling "steps" are actually called "half steps." Musical scales are subsets of the chromatic scale that contain 8 tones in a proscribed seriers of half steps and whole steps--
The major scale is then root - Whole -Whole-half - whole-whole - whole - half -- which gets back to the root.
Major chords have a major third -- two whole steps above the root - plus the fifth.
Minor chords have minor thirds -- 1 1/2 steps above the root -- plus the fifth.
If you know the differnces between half and whole steps, and how to generate a perfect fifth* you might be able to use the chromatic scale to build chords, but it's easier thinking of chords as related to keys.
Now back to your first question:
Seventh chords are major or minor triads (chords) with the addition of a tone seven scale degrees higher than the root. In a dominant seventh, that tone is one whole step below the octave (root); in a major seventh, it's a half step lower.
So:
C7 is C-E-G-Bb
Cmaj7 is C-E-G-B
Cmin7 is C-Eb-G-Bb
Cminor maj7 is C-Eb-G-B
I believe you are an engineer, correct? Music is math -- pick up a basic music theory book and learn the vocabulary and concepts. Trust me, it's easier to learn music if you take the time to learn music, rather than try to recreate the last 400 years of theory in your head.
Good luck.
* Perfect Fifth (n) Very old single malt Scotch, see "Highland Park, MacCallan, etc."
|
 |
|
|
da_joka
Lokahi
361 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2007 : 09:40:18 AM
|
Absolute,
I'm assuming since this is da "uke" section dat you stay trying fo make uke chords eh? Be shua fo check out da Fretboard roadmaps fo da ukulele ... all dis stuff is in dea, wen Beloff talks about da main chord shapes an how fo make any maj, min, and 7th chord from dat (an all da odda variations too). I tink learning da chord shape, and wea da root, 3rd, 5th, 7th, etc is in da chord shape goin help choke.
shootz. |
If can, can. If no can, no can. |
|
|
|
bbenzel
Lokahi
USA
130 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2007 : 11:39:12 AM
|
A "dominant" seventh is not a particular set of intervals -- it is the seventh chord that is formed based on the fifth of the key you're playing in -- i.e., G7 is dominant in the key of C, D7 is dominant in the key of G, etc. so, if you're playing in C and the changes call for a D7 chord it's just a D7 chord -- it's not "dominant" per se unless it's being used to change the key to G.
So, the concept of the interval -- a seventh -- needs to be distinguished from the concept of a dominant chord which has to do with the position of the root of the chord with respect to the key you're currently playing in.
The 7 chord is described as a "seventh" to distinguish it from a major seventh -- the structure of a seventh chord is 1 - 3 - 5 - flatted 7 so a G7 is G - B - D - F (since the G major scale is G-A-B-C-D-E-F#). Note that by flatting the 7th we use F instead of F# and F is natural to the key of C (to which it is dominant). Another example would be the D7 which is dominant to the key of G. The D scale is D-E-F#-G-A-B-C#-D. To make the D7 chord we use D - F# - A - C -- note that all these notes are in the G major scale. This works in any key -- just spell the major scale and use 1 - 3 - 5 - flat7.
The maj7 describes a chord structure that is built using the notes that are natural to the chord itself -- so a Gmaj7 is G - B - D - F#, a Dmaj7 is D - F# - A - C#, etc. -- 1 - 3 - 5 - 7.
Hope this helps,
Bill
|
|
|
|
Absolute
Lokahi
275 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2007 : 12:52:28 PM
|
I was hoping Mark would chime in and flog me (er...) offer his expert opinion!
I appreciate the input from everyone.
I used the term "step" relative to the generic scale and a shift from one note to the next in the sequence. Thanks, Mark, for clarifying that to a musician that is a half step.
I was thinking that it would not be incorrect to perceive a "seventh" as a shift in frequency, apparently that's not how the term is used. Thanks for setting me straight. If you don't display your ignorance from time to time before people who know what they're talking about, you can learn nothing.
I have been reading music theory on the internet. (That's why I'm so adept at mis-using musical terms! Of course, I'm more careful about "re-entrant".)
I had found it possible to use four and seven semitones to form the basic triads of chords using that generic scale to find the 3rd and 5th, so I was aspiring to a more general (shortcut) approach that would save me the trouble of memorizing all those bad old scales my old piano teacher (for about three months before I got tired of spending too many hours on the road or completing reports after hours) made the primary focus of my effort to learn to play the piano. (He was a great old guy at the corner music shop!) I guess it's easier just to type out the scales and keep a copy in your ukulele tab binder along with your basic chord reference chart, just in case you see a suspended chord and need to figure it out. I just liked the "method" rather than the memorization approach suggested, which eliminates any link to math or logic. (Picking numbered notes out of a line-up of notes in a scale isn't particularly mathematical.)
(Someday I'll get back to the piano. I thought the ukulele would make me focus more on music reading, but I've become so oriented toward numbered tabs, I hardly bother to read the sheet music anymore. Tin whistle playing is good for learning the treble clef, by the way... So is ukulele playing, if you don't use numbered tabs. Oddly, the ukulele has probably become my favorite instrument to play. I like George Winston on the piano, but for weeks have been listening to nothing but Keola Beamer's albums on my car radio - which is a very nice thing to do, by the way. I just requested Mark's book via interlibrary loan, so I can take a look at it. I also requested CDs of Gabby Pahenui. (I plan to buy Mark's book, but am waiting for "Uncle Dave's" to show up on BN.com before I order both of them. The purely Hawaiian music option is a great way to go if you've got enough CDs. I get my news via the "listen live" option at http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/index.shtml. So many programs via the BBC internet link on so many channels! It even works well with dial-up - no major delays due to low baud rate!) |
Thank you. |
Edited by - Absolute on 09/17/2007 1:22:04 PM |
|
|
|
Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2007 : 2:59:48 PM
|
quote:
A "dominant" seventh is not a particular set of intervals -- it is the seventh chord that is formed based on the fifth of the key you're playing in -- i.e., G7 is dominant in the key of C, D7 is dominant in the key of G, etc. so, if you're playing in C and the changes call for a D7 chord it's just a D7 chord -- it's not "dominant" per se unless it's being used to change the key to G.
That is strickly speaking, true.
I've come up hearing seventh chords called "dominant sevenths" as a shorthand on the bandstand-- particularly in dealing with music that gets away from strictly modal harmony, as in blues and swing. Like how the IV chord in a blues progression has that flatted seventh, say.
So I got sloppy. Thanks for pointing it out!
Ab - Once again: I'd suggest putting in some time learning the basics. You don't need to go back and memorize scales; rather you need to know what makes a major scale a major scale. And then learn how the chords relate to the scale. And then learn how the tones in the chords relate to the scale. And then learn how you grab notes that aren't in the scale to alter those chords.
Badda Bing
|
|
|
|
Absolute
Lokahi
275 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2007 : 3:19:19 PM
|
| Is all that in your book? (I was reading this past weekend. Apparently, if it sounds sad, lonely, or distraught, its probably a minor scale!) |
Thank you. |
Edited by - Absolute on 09/17/2007 3:21:19 PM |
|
|
|
Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 09/18/2007 : 08:09:49 AM
|
quote:
Is all that in your book?
Nope, sorry. My book as tutorials on how to play scales & chord inversion excercises, but mostly it is a series of graded arrangements getting progressively more difficult.
I Googled "Basic Music Theory" and got 12 million hits. That ought to keep you occupied for a while! 
Here's a good interactive site. I'd sugest starting at the beginning and running all the tutorials to gain an understanding of intervals, scales, and chords:
http://www.teoria.com/
Until you grasp the fundamentals, there's no point in reading about more difficult stuff. It is actually very simple if you take the time.
Good luck!
|
Edited by - Mark on 09/18/2007 08:10:49 AM |
|
|
|
Absolute
Lokahi
275 Posts |
Posted - 09/18/2007 : 10:33:28 AM
|
| Thanks for finding the basic reference for me. I appreciate your insight. |
Thank you. |
|
|
|
Absolute
Lokahi
275 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2007 : 08:01:03 AM
|
One more thing...
Chords are given numbers. I,II, III, and i,ii,iii, etc.
Are the caps. the major scale versions and the small lettered Roman numerals the minor scale versions? |
Thank you. |
|
|
|
Mika ele
Ha`aha`a
USA
1493 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2007 : 3:47:20 PM
|
ALMOST (the vii is the exception)
In the key of C Major, the notes and "degrees" are (THERE ARE NO # or b in C MAJOR Scale)
C[I]-d[ii]-e[iii]-F[IV]-G[V}-a[vi]-b[vii]-C[VIII or I]
The I Chord is C Major (C-E-G)
The ii chord is D minor (D-F-A) (notice that it is not D-F#-A which is D Major)
The iii chord is E minor (E-G-B) (notice that it is not E-G#-B which is E Major)
The IV chord is F Major (F-A-C)
The V chord is G Major (G-B-D)
The vi chord is A minor (A-C-E) (notice that it is not A-C#-E which is A Major)
The vii chord is tricky because it is B dim (B-D-F) (notice that it is not B-D#-F# which is B major -- the third and fifth are flatted)
The degree chords (indicated by roman numerals) use the only notes from the scale they relate to (C Major). So the scale degrees in Roman CAPITALS are Major chords. The scale dgerees for ii, iii, and vi are minor chords. the seventh degree is a diminsihed chord. |
Edited by - Mika ele on 09/19/2007 3:50:00 PM |
|
|
|
RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2007 : 5:12:52 PM
|
I would like to second Mark's comment about learning fundamentals.
I periodically get to teach someone what I know about music. Almost always they come in with the kind of questions posted above, and are quite mystified. I take an hour or two and go over the basics and it's amazing how quickly things get cleare up.
For me, the plethora of material on the web is overwhelming. Go to your local library, look at the books on basic music theory and pick one that is "simpatico." A couple of hours will lasr you the rest of your life, or until dementia takes over. |
|
|
|
Absolute
Lokahi
275 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2007 : 08:13:16 AM
|
I have been internet-ing per Mark's recommendation, including "teoria.com", which has some nice, basic stuff. I no longer wonder why an augmented chord doesn't seem to be based on the fundamental fret position of the basic chord by the same name.
I have run into oddly named chords, along the lines of "Xaug + something else" or C# No.3 No. 5 (which I take it means use the 3rd and 5th to make the triad in the latter case). I decided to live without specific knowledge of augmented chords retained in my memory, since they use different chord numbers than major or minor triads and require more than one key to form them (root note based major and minor keys). I now have a better grasp of suspended chords (including the reality of multiple ways to play them), and inverted chords. (I used to see suspended chords and just play the basic fingering position for the root note chord.)
I do continue to wonder how you change the "key" in which a work is played if the person who wrote it originally specified chords from more than one key, and there is no "dominant" key associated with the notes in the work. It occurred that you might alter the tone of individual passages slightly by shifting individual chords to other keys, while there might be no way to truly play such a work in another key. Of course, these are more musings than questions.
I'm not an expert in music theory by any measure, but I've gotten my feet wet. That means that some basic questions no longer trouble me, and I won't spend time staring at chord charts wondering what notes you might consistently add or subtract from a base chord to get an augmented chord. The base chord and the augmented chord aren't based on the same triad. I also now know that ninth chords on the ukulele are essentially simple approximations to the complete "seventh chord plus 9th degree of scale" guitar or piano chords, and that there are a plethora of guitar chords that one can not play on the ukulele due to four string/four note limitations.
I appreciate all the help and the referral to the internet. (I was truly surprised that this information was being provided at so many sites.) |
Thank you. |
|
|
|
sm80808
Lokahi
347 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2007 : 09:48:30 AM
|
If you have a song in G, for example, that goes:
Progression #1:
G---/Em---/C---/D---
and you want to play it in F, it would look like this:
Progression #2:
F---/Dm---/Bb---/C---
Notice the root of the first chord in progression #1 is whole tone higher than the root of the first chord in the progression #2. (G -> F)
Notice the same relationship between all the chords in progression #1 and their respective chords in progression #2.
Em -> Dm
C -> Bb
D -> C
So if you had the chord shapes for G, you could just move them 2 frets (2 semi-tones = 1 whole tone) down and you would now be playing in F.
So what if we want to change key from G to C?
Here are the chords in the key of C:
Progression #3:
C---/Am---/F---/G---
so from G -> C, we move up 5 semitones (or a 4th interval)
and so on for the rest of the chords:
Em -> Am
C -> F
D -> G
So, like transposing from G to F, transposing from G to C could easily be done by moving the same chord shapes up 5 frets.
This is the basis for playing with a capo. Put your capo on the 5th fret and play the same chord shapes as you did at the first fret and you have transposed the song up a 4th. In G this would mean you would end up in the key of C.
It all gets easier in time and eventually you see the patterns and can do them in your head. Which is really useful at jam sessions with no sheet music. :)
|
|
|
|
sm80808
Lokahi
347 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2007 : 09:54:31 AM
|
Absolute: I could also just recommend that you learn as many songs as possible.
Music is a language with basic patterns. When you learn a bunch of songs, you will see the big picture of these patterns more clearly. I think it will make a lot more sense to start big (whole songs, progressions) and then drill down to smaller things (what notes are in the chord and why). |
|
|
|
parotatch
Aloha
37 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2007 : 10:25:17 AM
|
This website has a little cutout where you can make your own "key transposition" chart. I made one and keep it in my uke case:
http://www.tikiking.com/tools.html
Pretty handy for changing the chords to any key for any song. |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Topic Locked
