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pukaua
Aloha
20 Posts |
 Posted - 10/26/2007 : 12:32:28 AM
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I am no expert, so take my opinion with a grain of salt, but the "na wai" part to me emphasizes "who". As an intermediate student of Hawaiian, I looked at that and figured it meant "Who isn't/won't/wouldn't/shouldn't?"
Hopefully someone more expert in Hawaiian can comment on that.
It is really difficult to translate turns of phrase - they encapsulate so much shared culture which can't easily be untangled from their native language and re-integrated into another language. We don't even think about it, but the phrase "why not" (in the context you gave) is like this. "Why not?" implies something about the person asking "why not" and his/her relationship to the person asking "why". It turns the challenge back to the person asking "why". Like "I am not answering your question because I don't need a reason (or I am tired of having to justify my action, or I may have no specific reason, or I am a devil-may-care kind of adventurer), and instead I am challenging you to broaden your acceptance and consider why anyone needs a reason other than 'it can be done', or to give me a counter-reason why I shouldn't."
In that sense, the translation "Who wouldn't?" (assuming that's a valid translation of "Na wai e `ole") would make sense. Like "Instead of answering your question, I am challenging you to tell me what kind of person wouldn't". Or "Who wouldn't jump at an opportunity to try something?"
My father once asked me to name his boat in the German equivalent of the English turn of phrase "When And If". As in "We can go out on the boat when and if <certain conditions are met>." I basically found it impossible to translate the implications into a pithy phrase that would fit nicely on the back of a boat, and English and German are way more closely related than English and Hawaiian.
Sorry that such a seemingly simple task can be made so complicated! An existing Hawaiian turn of phrase (or an `olelo no`eau) could make a nice tattoo as well ;-) |
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Hula Rider
Lokahi
USA
215 Posts |
Posted - 10/26/2007 : 04:54:57 AM
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quote:
"Na wai e 'ole." I would like to hear what you guys would think of when you hear this. Again thanks for your help.
To my ear it sounds kind of stilted and "modern," kind of "literal." But I've never studied Hawaiian formally, so what I am used to is probably pretty kua`aina (back-country / "hick"). It sounds very literal to me. But those UH-types are very well educated, and far more fluent than I. I have to read the small-keed books from Punana Leo with a dictionary at hand!
So, while I have given my opinion, I would certainly defer to people like Keola or Liko on this one.
Malama pono,
Leilehua |
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keoladonaghy
Lokahi
257 Posts |
Posted - 10/26/2007 : 07:13:00 AM
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As has been mentioned several times previously, it depends on the context. If someone was to ask me, "Do you want to go to Baskin-Robbins and get some ice cream?" I would not reply with "Na wai e 'ole" to give the sense of "why not?" I would say "hiki no", obviously ;-) If you wanted to be poetic and allude to the deliciousness of or your own craving for the ice cream and answer in a roundabout way, maybe you could use "na wai e 'ole..." in some way. I'd have to think about it.
If you were to say "Baskin Robbins makes the best ice cream in the world" (not that I think it is, but for the sake of this discussion lets say I did), then I might reply "na wai e 'ole?" as if to say "who would disagree?"
I don't know about "na wai e 'ole" being a modern construction. There is an 'olelo no'eau - "Na wai ho'i ka 'ole o ke akamai, he alanui i ma'a i ka hele 'ia e o'u mau makua" (Why shouldn't I know, when it is a road often traveled by my parents) which was uttered by Liholiho. I've also heard it as "na wai e 'ole (i) ke akamai ..." I would probaly translate that as "Who would disagree/argue/refute..." but Mrs. Puku'i translated it as "Why shouldn't I."
Bottom line is there is not a single phrase in Hawaiian, IMHO, that someone would be look at and know that it meant "Why not?" If I saw "Na wai e 'ole" and no other context I would think "who would disagree/argue/refute/" and the kind of contexts described above. |
Edited by - keoladonaghy on 10/26/2007 08:02:34 AM |
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keoladonaghy
Lokahi
257 Posts |
Posted - 10/26/2007 : 08:21:13 AM
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This discussion somewhat reminds me of one a teacher we encountered had with an Irish language student. There is no single word for "Yes" in Irish Gaelic, here is how you reply in the affirmative to some simple sentences:
An bhfuil tu sasta? Are you satisfied
Ta me sasta. I am satisfied
An Eireannach tu? Are you Irish?
Is Eireannach me. I am Irish
An dtuigeann tu Gailge? Do you understand Irish.
Tuigim thú. I understand.
Notice how in the top two examples they both translate to "I am", but use different Irish words to express it. All the student wanted to know was how to say yes and did not want to have to deal with all of this. Unfortunately there simply isn't a single word that says "yes", it is all in contexts. It's simply the way the language is. Same goes with the discussion of "Why not." |
Edited by - keoladonaghy on 10/26/2007 08:22:05 AM |
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hwnmusiclives
`Olu`olu
USA
580 Posts |
Posted - 10/26/2007 : 10:42:45 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by keoladonaghy
This discussion somewhat reminds me of one a teacher we encountered had with an Irish language student. There is no single word for "Yes" in Irish...
I loved this example. It reminds me of the example of some African languages that do not have words for colors but, rather, refer to colors in metaphor.
Instead of black, perhaps "...like the sky at midnight..."
Instead of red, perhaps "...like the feathers of __________ bird..."
Instead of yellow, perhaps "...like the brilliance of the sun..."
And when you think about it that way, it makes "black," "red," "yes," "no," and "why not" seem pretty mundane. As English speakers, we are into "economy of words" by our very nature. But we end up with a language that - in common usage - is pretty ugly.
Of course, this from a guy who still refuses to end a sentence in a preposition to save word count. Hence, his ejection from journalism school...
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Join me for the history of Hawaiian music and its musicians at Ho`olohe Hou at www.hoolohehou.org. |
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wcerto
Ahonui
USA
5052 Posts |
Posted - 10/26/2007 : 11:02:08 AM
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quote:
"Do you want to go to Baskin-Robbins and get some ice cream?"
Shoots den. we go. |
Me ke aloha
Malama pono,
Wanda |
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wcerto
Ahonui
USA
5052 Posts |
Posted - 10/26/2007 : 11:02:42 AM
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| And Paul always thought it was dumb to diagram sentences. |
Me ke aloha
Malama pono,
Wanda |
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rendesvous1840
Ha`aha`a
USA
1055 Posts |
Posted - 10/26/2007 : 5:27:30 PM
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Mo betta go Matsumoto's get one shave ice. Or, go to Morimoto's for squid ink ice cream.
When I went to conference night to meet our older daughter's 8th grade teacher, she said she didn't see a valid reason to diagram sentences unless you planned to study editing, journalism, or some related field.I stand vindicated; I knew it 30 years before she said it, and I didn't have to go to college to figure it out.
A:"Do you know where the tape is at?" B:"Don't end your sentence with a preposition." A:"Do you know where the tape is at, butthead?"
That's about all I know about that grammer stuff.
Paul |
"A master banjo player isn't the person who can pick the most notes.It's the person who can touch the most hearts." Patrick Costello |
Edited by - rendesvous1840 on 10/27/2007 3:41:41 PM |
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wcerto
Ahonui
USA
5052 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2007 : 03:31:27 AM
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| And don't forget about your "a-fixin' to's". I'm afixin', he's a fixing. she's afixin;..... |
Me ke aloha
Malama pono,
Wanda |
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pukaua
Aloha
20 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2007 : 12:10:13 PM
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I'd add another reason to learn to diagram sentences: if you ever plan to learn another language besides your native language(s). Even if the language isn't structured like English (most European ones are, Hawaiian not so much), already being familiar with how language is structured and grammar is put together can help a bunch when learning another language. In any event, you will in essence be diagramming the language you're learning anyway, in order to learn how to put sentences together, so it helps to already have the concept under your belt with a language you know.
But then again, you obviously don't *need* to know how to diagram sentences before you learn a new language (a look back into most of our family trees would prove that), it just helps. |
Edited by - pukaua on 10/27/2007 12:13:10 PM |
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wcerto
Ahonui
USA
5052 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2007 : 1:12:06 PM
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Pukaua - I agree with you whole-heartedly. I took German all through junior and senior high, way back in the olden days. However, it was very easy to learn that language due to similarities with English and the fact that English is a similar Germanic language.
I'm a firm believer in the value of diagramming sentances and breaking down the grammar structure, even, yes, even, in the language to which I was born. However, some will say I was born to "hillbilly speak" instead of English. The old grannies, great grannies on back, were so isolated up in the "hollers" in the mountains of W. Va., that they still spoke a very old English dialect, using words that were very archaic, but English none the less.
Also agree that Hawaiian language does not follow any of those conventions that I have previously learned. Its a different critter all together. Sometimes I think it is easier not to figure it out in English, but rather to absorb what it is in Hawaiian, such as the names for different rains and winds and clouds. I also appreciate the fact that pronunciation of Hawaiian words is very straight forward, way different from English. I find it a wonder that anyone could even learn English with all the dumb rules like "i" before "e" except after "c". Why waste the extra vowels, I say! Only gives higher points in Scrabble.
For Hawaiian language experts out there....if I were to make a homemade Hawaiian-language Scrabble game (which would help with spelling and comprehension), what proportion of vowels do you think I should have after I get rid of the useless consonants? I guess I would need to incorporate `okina and kahako somehow. |
Me ke aloha
Malama pono,
Wanda |
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keoladonaghy
Lokahi
257 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2007 : 3:08:05 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by wcerto
For Hawaiian language experts out there....if I were to make a homemade Hawaiian-language Scrabble game (which would help with spelling and comprehension), what proportion of vowels do you think I should have after I get rid of the useless consonants? I guess I would need to incorporate `okina and kahako somehow.
I often wondered myself. This is from the combined word lists of the Puku'i/Elbert Dictionary and Mamaka Kai - and omits latin characters which don't otherwise occur in the Hawaiian language.
a 20,750 17.8%
e 8,627 7.4%
i 10,484 9.0%
o 9,646 8.3%
u 8,552 7.3%
a - ko 3,033 2.6%
e - ko 422 0.4%
i - ko 759 0.6%
o - ko 1,430 1.2%
u - ko 1,359 1.2%
h 7,024 6.0%
k 9,830 8.4%
l 9,136 7.8%
m 3,711 3.2%
n 5,987 5.1%
p 5,454 4.7%
w 1,964 1.7%
Ê» 8,604 7.4%
Total 116,772
HHT |
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pukaua
Aloha
20 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2007 : 6:01:55 PM
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| Wow! Almost 1 out of every 5 letters in Hawaiian is an "a"! And 55.8% of letters are a vowel. Although it's almost surprising that it's not more than 55.8%, given that at least every other letter must be a vowel, words can start with a consonant but can't end with a consonant, and an arbitrary number of vowels can be strung together consecutively. |
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keoladonaghy
Lokahi
257 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2007 : 9:00:41 PM
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It was a 10 minute analysis but think it is accurate enough to create a Hawaiian Scrabble game ;-)
I could do a check for diphthongs and vowel clusters to confirm the accuracy but it would take a while. I'm not a statistician and my training in linguistics itself is somewhat limited so can't comment on the figures otherwise. |
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wcerto
Ahonui
USA
5052 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2007 : 11:41:47 PM
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Keola - thanks for the breakdown of letter distribution. Now I can make one homemade Scrabble game...just only need to find someone to play it with.
(But in English, I could whup anybody's butt).
Keola -- with the language immersion pre-schools, on up through high school, and even in college courses, as well, perhaps there would be a market for a Hawaiian language Scrabble game. You should make one and market it and get rich, yeah? The board itself would have to be bigger than the standard game board because of works such as humuhumunukunukuapua`a. And pulling 7 tiles wouldn't be enough to make a lot of Hawaiian words.
But I do know that in the official Scrabble dictionary, one of the words I get all my friends on at the end of the game when all I have left are vowels is a`a. They think I am cheating and think it is not a work, but I am happy to say, it certainly is "official", albeit without `okina.
Keola - when you went Ireland, how could you learn it with all those completely different linguistic rules and sounds? (Plus Kona Longboard or Sam Choys beers more better than Guiness). See - already -- Guiness -- should be Giness. Why the extra "u"?
Back in the olden days here in the new "colony" and even after breaking away from England, ordinary folks and even some pretty high-up muckety mucks had no idea how to spell. Even within the same written document someone would spell the same word differently. I have seen documents written by many of our historical figures and have to be amazed at the spelliing. Who made the rules? Couldn't have been Daniel Webster, could it? I mean, the language existed way prior to Webster.
How did Kawena Pukui do it, especially since it was not a written language initially? How did they decide to use `okina and kahako? Couldn't have been those missionaries, on account of they were poor in their spelling in English as well. How does one stroll into a different soverign nation and decide "I shall make a written language today, dear. What would you like for dinner tonight? Don't forget to drop off the dry cleaning."? |
Me ke aloha
Malama pono,
Wanda |
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