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wcerto
Ahonui
USA
5052 Posts |
 Posted - 11/04/2007 : 10:15:10 AM
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Paul is in the living room playing Kaula `Ili in Taro Patch. He says it is a waltz and he does not know what vamp(s) to use in that time.
Can anyone help enlighten us?
Mahalo nui.
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Me ke aloha
Malama pono,
Wanda |
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bigwave
Aloha
USA
9 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2007 : 07:53:50 AM
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| If you have Sonny Chillingworth's CD "Sonny Solo" he plays that song and you can probably figure out the vamp from that. |
--Dave |
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hwnmusiclives
`Olu`olu
USA
580 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2007 : 09:07:14 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by bigwave
If you have Sonny Chillingworth's CD "Sonny Solo" he plays that song and you can probably figure out the vamp from that.
(HINT: He doesn't use a vamp. Just in case you don't have the CD.)
If you want something more helpful, do whatever you want. If that is no more helpful, let me try again: The vamp is an indicator to the hula dancer of beginning, ending, and moving to the next verse. It is between you and the hula dancer what you play where the "vamps" belong. If there is no dancer, play whatever you want. 
Most of us think of the vamp in terms of the chords used, and it is typically a secondary dominant to dominant to tonic progress (V7/V -V7 - I or A7 - D7 - G in the key of "G"). But I have also heard some real swingers like Myra English and Kahauanu Lake and Tony Lindsey play something chromatic instead like A9 - Ab9 - G. The number of beats is what's important.
Different songs in different tempos also demand different vamps. I have never heard the V7/V - V7 - I progression above used as a vamp for "Hi`ilawe." Instead you hear V7 - I repeated twice (G7 - C - G7 - C in the key of "C").
Feeling has a lot to do with what you play there, and what the hula dancer is accustomed to hearing there is even more important.
As for what Sonny uses for a vamp for this song, I am at work and don't have the CD handy but I can hear it in my head. He plays it in taro patch in "G" and he simply plays "G" over and over again. To be more specific about it, he divides a three-beat measure into eighth notes, and over the G pedal tone, he plays a second position "G" chord for five of the eight notes and a second position "C" chord over the sixth. He is moving very quickly to the "C" and back again, but always over a "G" root.
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Join me for the history of Hawaiian music and its musicians at Ho`olohe Hou at www.hoolohehou.org. |
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rendesvous1840
Ha`aha`a
USA
1055 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2007 : 12:42:19 PM
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I have one of Sonny's CD's with Kaula Ili, but I can't find it just now. Wust be in Wanda's car.I think it was the waltz time that threw me. Seems like the vamps are usually one measure split between the II and V chords, followed by a full measure of the I chord. In 3/4, would that be a full bar of each chord?I tried adapting a standard Taropatch vamp, but got tangled up. I have Patrick Landeza's CD here. I'll try steal his,or make it up as I go. Can't be any more wrong than what I'm already making up for the rest of the song.
Paul |
"A master banjo player isn't the person who can pick the most notes.It's the person who can touch the most hearts." Patrick Costello |
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hwnmusiclives
`Olu`olu
USA
580 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2007 : 1:09:07 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by rendesvous1840
I have one of Sonny's CD's with Kaula Ili, but I can't find it just now. Wust be in Wanda's car.I think it was the waltz time that threw me. Seems like the vamps are usually one measure split between the II and V chords, followed by a full measure of the I chord. In 3/4, would that be a full bar of each chord?I tried adapting a standard Taropatch vamp, but got tangled up. I have Patrick Landeza's CD here. I'll try steal his,or make it up as I go. Can't be any more wrong than what I'm already making up for the rest of the song.
Paul
Music theorists would not allow that to be called the II chord. They would tell you there is no such thing. This is a common misconception that somebody created to make music notation easier.
The ii chord is minor. Some people think that by merely changing the lower case - ii - to upper case - II - the minor chord becomes a major chord. Not true. The chord you are referring to is the secondary dominant - or, put another way, the V chord of the V chord in the key you are playing in.
In the key of C...
ii = D minor
V/V = D major
So we were essentially saying the same thing, but what you notate as II should properly be notated as V/V.
If you insist on playing a three chord vamp, then I would try one three-beat measure of each: V7/V, V, and I. But I have to tell you that I am a big fan of Hawaiian waltzes and I have never heard that done. More often you hear one measure of V and one measure of I - perhaps repeated twice.
The waltz is a European musical convention; the hula a Hawaiian convention. I am not sure that the hula was ever intended to be performed in waltz time. But as the vamp is not so much a musical device but a dancer's device, I simply don't think there is a commonly agreed upon waltz vamp.
I once sang "Pua Lilia" for Kanoe Miller to dance, and she said, "Please sing it in 4/4." I asked someone to dance "Kamalani O Keaukaha" once and they said, "Only if you can sing it in 4/4." Fine for the dancers, but these songs were written in 3/4.
I would like to hear Peter Medeiros weigh in on this...
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Join me for the history of Hawaiian music and its musicians at Ho`olohe Hou at www.hoolohehou.org. |
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rendesvous1840
Ha`aha`a
USA
1055 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2007 : 1:38:34 PM
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Thanks for the theory lesson. My home/self schooling left gaps in my education, and it's good to fill one up. I thought of the II as a key change, but didn't realize it was notated incorectly. I'm not sure where I learned to mark it that way. Ignorance perpetuating itself,I guess. I'm going to listen more, then try the pedal idea.
We had wondered if there any 3/4 hula's, as we never seemed to see one danced. Hawaiian songwriters embraced the waltz early on, as Queen Lilli' uokalani and other writers composed several.
Paul |
"A master banjo player isn't the person who can pick the most notes.It's the person who can touch the most hearts." Patrick Costello |
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slipry1
Ha`aha`a
USA
1511 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2007 : 2:16:03 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by hwnmusiclives
quote:
Originally posted by rendesvous1840
I have one of Sonny's CD's with Kaula Ili, but I can't find it just now. Wust be in Wanda's car.I think it was the waltz time that threw me. Seems like the vamps are usually one measure split between the II and V chords, followed by a full measure of the I chord. In 3/4, would that be a full bar of each chord?I tried adapting a standard Taropatch vamp, but got tangled up. I have Patrick Landeza's CD here. I'll try steal his,or make it up as I go. Can't be any more wrong than what I'm already making up for the rest of the song.
Paul
Music theorists would not allow that to be called the II chord. They would tell you there is no such thing. This is a common misconception that somebody created to make music notation easier.
The ii chord is minor. Some people think that by merely changing the lower case - ii - to upper case - II - the minor chord becomes a major chord. Not true. The chord you are referring to is the secondary dominant - or, put another way, the V chord of the V chord in the key you are playing in.
In the key of C...
ii = D minor
V/V = D major
So we were essentially saying the same thing, but what you notate as II should properly be notated as V/V.
If you insist on playing a three chord vamp, then I would try one three-beat measure of each: V7/V, V, and I. But I have to tell you that I am a big fan of Hawaiian waltzes and I have never heard that done. More often you hear one measure of V and one measure of I - perhaps repeated twice.
The waltz is a European musical convention; the hula a Hawaiian convention. I am not sure that the hula was ever intended to be performed in waltz time. But as the vamp is not so much a musical device but a dancer's device, I simply don't think there is a commonly agreed upon waltz vamp.
I once sang "Pua Lilia" for Kanoe Miller to dance, and she said, "Please sing it in 4/4." I asked someone to dance "Kamalani O Keaukaha" once and they said, "Only if you can sing it in 4/4." Fine for the dancers, but these songs were written in 3/4.
I would like to hear Peter Medeiros weigh in on this...
In jazz theory (from John Mehegan, who taught at Juilliard, and Mark Levine autors of the well-known jazz theory books) the II chord exists. In the theory of scale tone 7th's, the II chord is a minor th and takes the Dorian mode scale. If a major chord is desired, it is marked IIM, if a dominant 7th is desired, it is marked IIx, if an augmented chord is desired, it is marked IIo, and for a half diminished chord its II(an o with a slash through it). Notation on charts backs this up. I'm not sure what the classical guys say. So - I is a major 7th, II is a minor 7th, III is a minor 7th, IV is a major 7th, V is a dominant 7th, VI is a minor 7th, and VII is a half diminished (or "minor 7th flat 5"). However, in the folk (Hawaiian) world, the II in the II-V-I progression is often a dominant 7th. WHEW!! I'm glad I got THAT out of my system. |
keaka |
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Sarah
`Olu`olu
571 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2007 : 04:54:34 AM
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Paul, if you are still looking for 3/4 vamps, email me and I'll send you a pdf. I've tabbed out a handful of pretty straightforward ones I use, and it might give you a place to start.
aloha,
Sarah |
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rendesvous1840
Ha`aha`a
USA
1055 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2007 : 3:03:27 PM
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I remember where I got the idea of the major II chord. It was a jazz lesson book from Jamey Aebersold called The II-V7-I progression. I also recall the secondary dominant,as Bill explained it above. I didn't quite grasp where the secondary dominant came from, I probably didn't concentrate enough on that page. But little by little, the pieces come together.
Paul |
"A master banjo player isn't the person who can pick the most notes.It's the person who can touch the most hearts." Patrick Costello |
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keoladonaghy
Lokahi
257 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2007 : 5:34:34 PM
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| All three of the minor chords (ii, iii and vi) in a major diatonic harmony can be secondary dominants, too, not just the IIV. Common in jazz and Hawaiian and hapa haole standards as well. |
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Hula Rider
Lokahi
USA
215 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2007 : 07:50:50 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by hwnmusiclives
[quote]Originally posted by rendesvous1840
The waltz is a European musical convention; the hula a Hawaiian convention. I am not sure that the hula was ever intended to be performed in waltz time. But as the vamp is not so much a musical device but a dancer's device, I simply don't think there is a commonly agreed upon waltz vamp.
I once sang "Pua Lilia" for Kanoe Miller to dance, and she said, "Please sing it in 4/4." I asked someone to dance "Kamalani O Keaukaha" once and they said, "Only if you can sing it in 4/4." Fine for the dancers, but these songs were written in 3/4.
I would like to hear Peter Medeiros weigh in on this...
Aloha no - I'm not Peter, but I do dance hula. . . :-)
Yes, generally, we like to work out ahead of time with the musician the kahea, the wawaena (vamp), timing, etc, but you don't always get a chance to. Keeps things interesting!
In our style, in traditional hula tempo, we generally dance each verse twice, with the repeat mirroring the previous verse (ArAl, BrBl, CrCl, DrDl). The pa (fourth) beat is used to make the weight shift so the dancer can move the other direction.
We do dance hula to waltz tempo, but I can't think of any time I have used a wawaena when dancing in waltz tempo.
In the style of hula I learned, the basic wawaena are `ole (none), `eha (four or eight beats), and `elima (five or ten beats).
Generally, in our style, the waltz tempo does not take a wawena.
As a dancer, when performing hula in waltz tempo, you eliminate the pa step (fourth step), so each verse will be danced in the opposite dominant direction from the previous verse.
If the musician does not repeat the verses, you simply dance one to the right, the next to the left (Ar, Bl, Cr, Dl).
Malama pono,
Leilehua
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hwnmusiclives
`Olu`olu
USA
580 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2007 : 10:43:30 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Hula Rider
quote:
Originally posted by hwnmusiclives
I would like to hear Peter Medeiros weigh in on this...
Aloha no - I'm not Peter, but I do dance hula. . . :-)
And, in this case, better than Peter since it was really a hula question. (Sorry, Peter!)
Thanks for explaining this, Lei! It was an education for me.
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Join me for the history of Hawaiian music and its musicians at Ho`olohe Hou at www.hoolohehou.org. |
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rendesvous1840
Ha`aha`a
USA
1055 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2007 : 4:12:57 PM
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I use a vamp in jazz tunes in C that goes Cmaj7,Bbdim, Dm7, G7#5, Cmaj7. I don't remember where it came from, possibly from Stormy Weather. That would be I,vii,ii,V, I. Gets funny looks from Old Time country fiddlers, but swing fiddlers like it.
Leilehua, is the reason for repeating each verse before going to the next to allow the dancers to go back the other way, and return to the starting place? I wondered why the repeat is so common in Hawaiian music.
Paul |
"A master banjo player isn't the person who can pick the most notes.It's the person who can touch the most hearts." Patrick Costello |
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Hula Rider
Lokahi
USA
215 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2007 : 11:44:46 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by rendesvous1840
I use a vamp in jazz tunes in C that goes Cmaj7,Bbdim, Dm7, G7#5, Cmaj7. I don't remember where it came from, possibly from Stormy Weather. That would be I,vii,ii,V, I. Gets funny looks from Old Time country fiddlers, but swing fiddlers like it.
Leilehua, is the reason for repeating each verse before going to the next to allow the dancers to go back the other way, and return to the starting place? I wondered why the repeat is so common in Hawaiian music.
Paul
I was taught that there are two main stylistic descent lines for hula, the "ha`a" and the "hula." In modern times, they have become kind of blended in many cases.
Basically, ha`a originated in the temple. It is characterized by more stylized moves and the lyric construction is one long piece.
Hula originated outside of the temple, and is characterized by more interpretive moves and doubling of verses.
I was taught that since most hula performances were out of doors, and often sort of a "theater in the round" type of situation, you repeated each verse so that the people on each side of the pa hula would have an opportunity to see and hear the hula.
Today, I don't see the dancers inverting the verses very often. Most people just repeat the same side.
As to the origins of the repeated verses, I don't really know. Perhaps originally that type of hula was a verbal call and response thing, and when dancing the group responded to the caller in a mirror image?
I've asked a lot of people. Some say for balance. Some say call and response. Some say it gives you a chance to get it right. But no one I've talked with seems to really know for certain.
Malama pono,
Leilehua |
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alika207
Ha`aha`a
USA
1260 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2007 : 4:59:44 PM
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Related to one of Bill's posts in this topic:
I learned that hula can only be danced to mele in 4/4 time. |
He kehau ho'oma'ema'e ke aloha.
'Alika / Polinahe |
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Hula Rider
Lokahi
USA
215 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2007 : 09:33:58 AM
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A`ohe pau ka `ike i ka hâlau ho`okahi - "Not all knowledge is taught in one school"
While 4/4 time is certainly the most common time in hula, and by far the easiest for most beginning students to learn, various halau may incorporate other time signatures. In our halau we work with 3/4, 4/4, 5/8, 7/8, 9/16, 13/16, 14/16, and hula with mixed signatures.
Our kaholoholo ki`i wawae step is a 14/16 kaholo with a ki`i on beat 12, wawae luna on beat 13, and a pause on beat 14.
Our version of "He Motu Ta Ura" is danced:
4/4
4/4
7/8
9/16
13/16
14/16
7/8
Malama pono,
Leilehua |
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