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Popoki
Akahai
USA
88 Posts |
 Posted - 02/10/2003 : 1:43:28 PM
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Aloha Taro Patch Ohana,
As I'm sure you are all very aware, this is a scary time. Slack Key is such a gentle, soothing form of music. Let's all do our part to promote this peaceful feeling. Thought you might appreciate reading the following - it's a letter to the editor in the Maui News on Feb 10th, 2003 from Steve Grimes.
Aloha, Kitty
Rush to war is a stampede of vigilante fools
Our leaders are hellbent on convincing us and the rest of the world that the time for peace is over and the time to purge Iraq is now. Why is it that we are the only ones in the entire civilized world making this war cry?
Instead of being a world leader, we’re becoming the world vigilante. It sets a bad example and sets us up to take the brunt of the terrorist backlash.
What is the rush, anyway? Is Saddam going to pull his weapons of mass destruction out of hiding and use them while the inspectors are still there? If so, then why even hide them? After the Gulf War the inspectors were there for four years. How do we expect them to verify Saddam’s claim of having no weapons in only a few months, with over 1,000 sites to inspect?
George W. wants to get in there and rid the country of the regime, get control of the oil and rivers and “stabilize” the region. He knows it becomes harder as time goes by to sell this war to the world. He becomes more embarrassed every day that the inspectors haven’t found anything, and a bully who’s
embarrassed is a dangerous person. Like the old song, “fools rush in, where angels fear to tread.”
Steve Grimes
Kula
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Popoki
Akahai
USA
88 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2003 : 1:55:32 PM
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Attn Maui Taro Patchers....
Save the date - Sunday, Feb 16th! The Maui Peace Action will hold the Maui Peace Portrait at MCC. There will be music and speakers starting at 1pm and the portrait will be taken at 2:30PM. This peace portrait will be made into a postcard and can be sent to world leaders, elected representatives, family, and friends to show how many people on Maui want to solve problems peacefully and with the backing of the U.N.....from Maui News Feb. 3 by Sally Raisbeck.
Ho'omaluhia,
Kitty |
Edited by - Popoki on 02/10/2003 2:29:05 PM |
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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2003 : 4:46:43 PM
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Back in the 60's when I was taking intro sociology, or prof made a big point of saying something like the fanatics of the world will always have their way 'cause reasonable people never want to go to the extremes they do. I didn't want to believe that back then, but experience has shown it to be true. I wish my prof would be alive 'cause I would like to ask his opinion on what happens when 2 fanatics are compteting. I'm afraid his answer would be something like the one with the most power will prevail, but LOTS of innocent people will get screwed in the process.
For me, I lost uncles in WWII, and good friends in Nam. I'm not a pacifist per se in that I can understand fighting when you are attacked. I cannot see that applying in this case. Being a psychologist be trade, I keep hoping someone will get to Gearge Buss with a hypo full of Haldol ER. Some of my psychotic patients think more clearly than he does.
Opps, hope the terrorist police won't come knocking.
Raymond |
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cpatch
Ahonui
USA
2187 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2003 : 8:01:44 PM
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Well, this subject ought to divide the group up pretty nicely! Personally I think that peace in the world is a wonderful ideal that will never be attained due to the inherent imperfections of human nature and the narcotic-like effect power and greed can have on us. But in this particular case I have to agree with President Bush that Saddam Hussein is a menace to the free world and will eventually attack. Do we wait for such a thing to happen? Europe waited for Hitler and we all know how that turned out. I don't like the idea of war either though...if it was up to me I'd work on an assassination or a coup.
I also think that there's a lot more behind Bush's posturing than meets the eye...he's playing a game of chess against an enemy that plays by his own rules, and to assume that Saddam can be dealt with rationally and peacefully is a deadly tactic. If we come across too softly, Saddam sees us as weak and will attempt to walk all over us (as he's already done with the United Nations). If we come on too strong, we back him into a corner and he lashes out like a trapped animal. It's a fine line for Bush to walk and I think he's doing it well so far. (And incidentally, the longer the inspectors are in Iraq without finding anything, the more it points to Saddam hiding something. The inspectors are supposed to be there to examine evidence that Saddam's prior arsenal has been destroyed, not to play hide and seek with existing weaponry.)
With respect to rushing in, we've been patient for years while Saddam has spat in our face and lauged at us behind our backs. Just because we've given a final ultimatum and are moving towards a decisive action doesn't mean we're rushing...if anything we've waited too long.
Bottom line for me...get Saddam and his regime out of power with the least number of casualties possible, but do it now.
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Craig
My goal is to be able to play as well as people think I can. |
Edited by - cpatch on 02/10/2003 8:18:46 PM |
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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2003 : 9:01:57 PM
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Craig, I hope this topic does not add division to the site. In truth I think the focus should be on slack key, but OOO, a good political "discussion" is too much to resist. If a significant amount of members feel politics should be off limits, or specifically this issue, I can support that and will cease such postings.
So, here goes the "discussion".....
I'm not sure the analogy with Hitler is really accurate. Basically the issue with Hitler was not waiting for him to strike first. He had overrun huge parts of Europe before England and France got involved, and even more before the US got involved. (The argument can really get interesting if you begin to examine how the "reparations" of WWI helped create the atmosphere which allowed Hitler to come to power.)
The Traditional Western Theory of Just War states that a war is just when aggression has occured, that that war must be in commensurate measure to the aggression or at least to neutralize it, and that civilian deaths must be prevented as much as posible. Frankly, though I have read and listen to the President and his Cabinet, I have not seem them profer any real evidence to prove their point. OK, so if national security is an issue, let them present the evidence to the appropriate Congressional Committees. I'll accept the judgement of my Congressperson that the evidents of immanent threat is there, and my congresspeople are on the committees which are germaine. As of 2 days ago my Senator's office issued a press release that the evidence is not conclusive. Furthermore I have not heard Bush's administration talking about ways to minimize "collateral impact." (That is the latest euphemism for killing civilians and other non-combatants.) Therefore, I must conclude that, rhetoric notwithstanding, this military action does not fit under the rubrics of a "Just War." Incidently, the US Catholic Bishops, not a group that usually takes unpopular stands except when it comes to sex, has made public statements with reasoning and conclusions similar to mine. Though I usually don't brag about thinking the same way as the US Catholic Bishop's Conference, this time I'll make an exception.
--- Also, if the US has hard evidence that these weapons/weapons labs exist, I could support a military strike to take them out. The truth is, given the recent track record of our intelligence agencies, I rather doubt they really know what they are talking about. I grant this is an emotional argument, but for me it does add to my judgement on the issue.
Is Saddam an evil person? By most standards he sure is. Is he harming his people? Seems so. Could we attack him as a way of trying to protect his people? Maybe I'm wrong here, but I suspect that the potential risks in terms of destabilizing the Mid East might be higher than the potential benefits. This last point bothers me. If our reasons were clearly humanitarian, I would support the war. I just don't get that message from this Administration. Can I support it as a "Just War" -- no. No matter how evel Saddam might be, we must act out of and protect the tradition of Western Values.
Raymond Stovich
San Jose, CA |
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cpatch
Ahonui
USA
2187 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2003 : 11:21:28 PM
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I couldn't resist jumping in either, but I also think we should focus on slack key so I'm going to limit my participation to my previous post and add the comment that if there's a way to avoid a war I'm all for it. I hope my assessment of the situation is wrong and Raymond's is right. But I'm not optimistic at this point.
Maybe the solution is to fly our propaganda planes above Saddam's palaces and jam all the airwaves with the sounds of ki ho`alu!
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Craig
My goal is to be able to play as well as people think I can. |
Edited by - cpatch on 02/11/2003 4:05:00 PM |
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marzullo
`Olu`olu
USA
923 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2003 : 3:26:52 PM
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quote:
Maybe the solution is to fly our propaganda planes above Saddam's palaces and jam all the airwaves with the sound of ki ho`alu!
more useful, perhaps, would be for americans to visit iraq to understand better the impact of what we are being asked to support. war is always easier when approached in ignorance.
aloha to all,
keith
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Keith |
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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2003 : 3:55:37 PM
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I like the airplane idea. I'll be happy to contribute a half hour set.
Raymond |
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Julie H
Ha`aha`a
USA
1206 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2003 : 04:15:18 AM
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As a little girl, I was caught in a combat situation in the Dutch East Indies when our Dutch General Westerling decided not to capitulate to the Japanese, and came into town with all his tanks, shooting anyone in an Indonesian military uniform. Then he set up camp across the street from our house and proceeded to lob heavy artillery over our house onto the military base on the next block. I don't know how long my little brother and I were jammed into the corner under the beds surrounded by the heavy trunks my parents barricaded us with. I do know that when we finally came out and saw the bullet holes in our walls and the dead bodies in our drainage ditch, I was forever changed.
To this day, I am deathly afraid of the dark, and even more afraid of earthquakes. (An earthquake sounds and acts just like heavy artillery.) All I want to say here is: if you haven't been there, it's easy to talk. When you've been there, it's very important to avoid those types of situations. I feel for all the children of the world that suffer under the actions of adults. I wish with all my heart that everyone could live in peace and harmony with one another. But since the days of Cain and Abel, I know that there will never be peace on earth, for we humans just cannot refrain from interfering with each other. For tonight, I will rejoice in the friendships we have formed here on this site, and all the sweet music we have shared, and all we will share in the future. With love, Julie |
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wdf
Ha`aha`a
USA
1153 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2003 : 11:53:50 AM
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Mahalo for sharing, Julie.
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Dusty |
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Pauline Leland
`Olu`olu
USA
783 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2003 : 12:14:05 PM
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Oh Julie! That must be a hard story to tell.
Dusty, thanks for the picture. It's going to decorate some of my 3-ring binders. |
Pauline |
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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2003 : 3:42:52 PM
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Julie,
My best wishes for you during the days ahead. Unless you bury your head in the sand you are bound to hear lots of stuff that will be painful. Take care. Make sure you get to some place where you can experience some inner peace.
Raymond |
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Popoki
Akahai
USA
88 Posts |
Posted - 02/13/2003 : 11:29:29 AM
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Aloha Kakou,
Mahalo Julie for sharing your experience - sounds like scary, life changing times. Glad to know that you've grown into a caring, peaceful adult, and sorry to hear that you carry some "emotional scars" from that experience.
Mahalo Raymond, Craig and Keith for sharing your ideas. I have to admit that I realize Saddam not a good person, I had just hoped that our civilization was more advanced and could figure a way to solve problems without killing, because innocents on both sides will be if we go to war.
Mahalo Dusty for the wonderful picture!
Mahalo Taro Patch Ohana for the good idea sharing.
Aloha, >^..^< |
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Popoki
Akahai
USA
88 Posts |
Posted - 02/17/2003 : 1:24:49 PM
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Aloha Kakou,
The gathering yesterday for the Maui Peace Portrait was wonderful. Looked like over 1000 people showed up. There was some great music ~ Barry Flanagan played a few songs and Steve Grimes join in with Barry. Steve had orgainzed all the musicians for the event. Uluwehi Guerrero sang. Gail Swanson performed some songs she'd written for peace. Lots of good speakers. Great turn out and it was a beautiful Maui day. If you're interested, you can check out http://www.geocities.com/mauipeaceportrait/
Ho'o Maluhia
Making Peace
>^..^<
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cdyas
Akahai
67 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2003 : 5:49:59 PM
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With the uncertain times facing our country and the world I just wanted to thank you all for sharing your experiences with slack key and life in general. Finding slack key at this point in my life has been so wonderful and the Aloha that you are all willing to share with our cyber Ohana here in the TaroPatch continues to amaze me. It has helped me to grow musically and as a person as well. Thank you all for reminding me of and perpetuating the Aloha spirit, and thank you Andy for your time and dedication to this site. Blessings of happiness and health to all.
Aloha,
Chris
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