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wcerto
Ahonui

USA
5052 Posts

Posted - 06/21/2008 :  12:44:53 AM  Show Profile
Whether you are pro or con on this issue, here is a very interesting point of view. In my book, the light bulbs are quite expensive at the outset. I am not yet convinced that they really last longer than others. We have put some in places where it is very hard to change bulbs. We also put one in a lamp in the living room. It burned out or whatever they do when they die, and we went back to an incandescent 3-way bulb. I do have fluroescent in the kitchen, one of the old kind, and it has been there since 2001 when we had the kitchen remodeled.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=e-LOtKIIKcg

Please share your points of view with me. Points to consider: 1) certainly saves energy 2)should use be mandated or legislated? Is this like an unfunded mandate? 3)what about the point he brings up that they are all manufactured in China? Does this affect your opinion of whether use should be mandated or not?

Me ke aloha
Malama pono,
Wanda

`Ilio Nui
`Olu`olu

USA
826 Posts

Posted - 06/21/2008 :  04:12:05 AM  Show Profile
4) If I drop and break one, do I call the Haz-Mat team to clean up the Mercury Vapor?

dog

Edited by - `Ilio Nui on 06/21/2008 04:12:36 AM
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wcerto
Ahonui

USA
5052 Posts

Posted - 06/21/2008 :  04:52:08 AM  Show Profile
Actually by EPA standards, not unless 1 lb. of mercury is released. The amount of mercury in a normal CFL bulb is 4.0 mg.

More info see: http://www.thegreenguide.com/doc/ask/cfl

Me ke aloha
Malama pono,
Wanda

Edited by - wcerto on 06/21/2008 04:52:47 AM
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ypochris
Lokahi

USA
398 Posts

Posted - 06/21/2008 :  04:54:05 AM  Show Profile
I love compact fluorescents for their energy savings- although durability is indeed an issue I feel we have an obligation to use less energy even if it costs us more to do so, so if the bulb doesn't last long enough to recoup the purchase price on saved energy it doesn't bother me. I would also point out that the bulbs have a warranty that lasts longer than the cost recovery period, so save those receipts!

The amount of mercury is very low and getting lower all the time- a thermometer has more murcury than a lifetime's worth of compact fluorescents, and I can't count the number of those I have broken in my life!

To me the issue is start up time- some models take a moment to turn on, while others come on instantly. But it seems all models I have tried get considerably brighter after a few minutes. Color balance is important to me also- I really like the natural light bulbs although they cost a bit more than soft or bright white.

Dimmer switches are a fast way to kill your bulbs- although I understand that they do make dimable ones too.

In short, all my bulbs are compact fluorescent, and I feel we have a moral obligation to future generations to use as little energy as possible- especially when the cost and lost convenience is so negligible.

Chris
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javeiro
Lokahi

USA
459 Posts

Posted - 06/21/2008 :  4:24:29 PM  Show Profile
As an architect, I don't like the color rendition that CFL's produce. But I still use them (and/or strip fluorescents) where it's not important to me. They are in all my outside lights, storage room, bathrooms, laundry room, pantry, garage, shop, etc. But in my den where I work, and in the living, dining and kitchen I have a mixture of halogen and daylight fluorescent strips which are generally brighter and have more natural color rendition. One place where CFL's do NOT work well is in 3-way bulbs. In my experience I have found that they get just a bit brighter on the second setting and have almost no discernible difference on the third.

Aloha,
John A.
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`Ilio Nui
`Olu`olu

USA
826 Posts

Posted - 06/21/2008 :  4:41:06 PM  Show Profile
Wanda,

In 1993 I became ill and I didn't know why. In 1999 I was forced to sell my Dental Practice and not work in my profession for almost 5 years because of Mercury poisoning. After years of chelation therapy, I still suffer from neurological side-effects. Your glib response to me , "Actually by EPA standards, not unless 1 lb. of mercury is released. The amount of mercury in a normal CFL bulb is 4.0 mg." is insufficient. Here is the rest of the response from the EPA.

quote:
What to Do if a Fluorescent Light Bulb Breaks
Compact fluorescent lights (CFLs) are lighting more homes than ever before, and EPA is encouraging Americans to use and recycle them safely. Carefully recycling CFLs prevents the release of mercury into the environment and allows for the reuse of glass, metals and other materials that make up fluorescent lights.
EPA is continually reviewing its clean-up and disposal recommendations for CFLs to ensure that the Agency presents the most up-to-date information for consumers and businesses. Maine's Department of Environmental Protection released a CFL breakage study report on February 25, 2008. EPA has conducted an initial review of this study and, as a result of this review, we have updated the CFL cleanup instructions below.
Pending the completion of a full review of the Maine study, EPA will determine whether additional changes to the cleanup recommendations are warranted. The agency plans to conduct its own study on CFLs after thorough review of the Maine study.
Frequently Asked Questions about Compact Fluorescent Light Bulbs and Mercury (PDF) (2 pp., 71K, About PDF)
Learn more about recycling and disposal options for fluorescents
Find fluorescent light bulb recycling programs in your area
Learn more about compact fluorescent light bulbs from the ENERGY STAR program
Fluorescent light bulbs contain a very small amount of mercury sealed within the glass tubing. EPA recommends the following clean-up and disposal below. Please also read the information on this page about what never to do with a mercury spill.
Before Clean-up: Air Out the Room
• Have people and pets leave the room, and don't let anyone walk through the breakage area on their way out.
• Open a window and leave the room for 15 minutes or more.
• Shut off the central forced-air heating/air conditioning system, if you have one.
Clean-Up Steps for Hard Surfaces
• Carefully scoop up glass pieces and powder using stiff paper or cardboard and place them in a glass jar with metal lid (such as a canning jar) or in a sealed plastic bag.
• Use sticky tape, such as duct tape, to pick up any remaining small glass fragments and powder.
• Wipe the area clean with damp paper towels or disposable wet wipes. Place towels in the glass jar or plastic bag.
• Do not use a vacuum or broom to clean up the broken bulb on hard surfaces.
Clean-up Steps for Carpeting or Rug
• Carefully pick up glass fragments and place them in a glass jar with metal lid (such as a canning jar) or in a sealed plastic bag.
• Use sticky tape, such as duct tape, to pick up any remaining small glass fragments and powder.
• If vacuuming is needed after all visible materials are removed, vacuum the area where the bulb was broken.
• Remove the vacuum bag (or empty and wipe the canister), and put the bag or vacuum debris in a sealed plastic bag.
Clean-up Steps for Clothing, Bedding and Other Soft Materials
• If clothing or bedding materials come in direct contact with broken glass or mercury-containing powder from inside the bulb that may stick to the fabric, the clothing or bedding should be thrown away. Do not wash such clothing or bedding because mercury fragments in the clothing may contaminate the machine and/or pollute sewage.
• You can, however, wash clothing or other materials that have been exposed to the mercury vapor from a broken CFL, such as the clothing you are wearing when you cleaned up the broken CFL, as long as that clothing has not come into direct contact with the materials from the broken bulb.
• If shoes come into direct contact with broken glass or mercury-containing powder from the bulb, wipe them off with damp paper towels or disposable wet wipes. Place the towels or wipes in a glass jar or plastic bag for disposal.
Disposal of Clean-up Materials
• Immediately place all clean-up materials outdoors in a trash container or protected area for the next normal trash pickup.
• Wash your hands after disposing of the jars or plastic bags containing clean-up materials.
• Check with your local or state government about disposal requirements in your specific area. Some states do not allow such trash disposal. Instead, they require that broken and unbroken mercury-containing bulbs be taken to a local recycling center.
Future Cleaning of Carpeting or Rug: Air Out the Room During and After Vacuuming
• The next several times you vacuum, shut off the central forced-air heating/air conditioning system and open a window before vacuuming.
• Keep the central heating/air conditioning system shut off and the window open for at least 15 minutes after vacuuming is completed.


Does that sound like an innocuous material? If it's so safe, why are we not supposed to throw the spent bulbs in the trash? Do you know where the recycling centers are in Ohio? And the laws based on that recycling? I have some links below. Do you have any idea how much it affects your heart?

Cleveland has 478,403 residents. Assuming 3 per household, that's 159468 households. At a conservative 4 CFL bulbs per year, that's 637471 discarded bulbs per year. Times 4 mg Hg that's 2,551,483 mg Hg/year into the trash. Or 2551.48 grams. Or 1286.56 LBs Hg. Think mercury vapor and/or water supply.

http://www.epa.gov/epaoswer/hazwaste/id/univwast/lamps/live.htm

http://www.epa.gov/epaoswer/hazwaste/id/univwast/lamps/region5.htm

http://www.epa.gov/mercury/spills/index.htm#whatnever

Another EPA
quote:


Although lighting manufacturers have greatly reduced the amount of mercury used in lighting over the past 20 years, they are not yet able to completely eliminate the need for mercury.  While mercury-containing bulbs contain small amounts of mercury (an average of 5 milligrams or about 1/100th of the amount of mercury found in a mercury fever thermometer), they are one of numerous sources that collectively impact the environment during disposal. 

EPA strongly encourages the recycling of all mercury-containing bulbs after they burn out.


David M. Nye DDS


Edited by - `Ilio Nui on 06/22/2008 04:57:41 AM
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Retro
Ahonui

USA
2368 Posts

Posted - 06/21/2008 :  6:13:35 PM  Show Profile  Visit Retro's Homepage
quote:
Originally posted by `Ilio Nui

4) If I drop and break one, do I call the Haz-Mat team to clean up the Mercury Vapor?
From the excellent and detailed information you posted later, dog, it looks like the answer is "no" - with extreme care and caution, you can do the cleanup yourself.

The news of your illness is horrid; certainly not anything we would want to see anyone go through.

But will we need a Haz-Mat squad to clean up the flaming material flung at Wanda? Like the bumper stickers I often see these days: "Wag more, bark less." Aloha.
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markwitz
`Olu`olu

USA
841 Posts

Posted - 06/21/2008 :  6:20:30 PM  Show Profile
quote:
[i]Originally posted by `Ilio Nui

Cleveland has 478,403 residents. Assuming 3 per household, that's 159468 households. At a conservative 4 CFL bulbs per year, that's 637471 discarded bulbs per year. Times 4 mg Hg that's 2,551,483 mg Hg/year into the trash. Or 2551.48 grams. Or 1286.56 LBs Hg. Think mercury vapor and/or water supply.






453.6 grams = 1 pound, to be exact

So by using the calculations above, we get:

2,551.48 grams divided by 453.6 = 5.62 pounds of Hg (mercury), not 1286.56 pounds.

But Dave, your concern is totally valid. Because Hg (mercury) is an elementary material, it doesn't break down. In places like landfills it will naturally accumulate and find it's way into the water table. So proper disposal is an obligation that the consumer should accept if they decide to use them.

"The music of the Hawaiians, the most fascinating in the world, is still in my ears and
haunts me sleeping and waking."
Mark Twain
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guitarded
Ha`aha`a

USA
1799 Posts

Posted - 06/21/2008 :  8:12:49 PM  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by `Ilio Nui

quote:
Fluorescent light bulbs contain a very small amount of mercury sealed within the glass tubing. EPA recommends the following clean-up and disposal below.

<snip>

I remember days when we were younger
We used to catch 'o'opu in the mountain stream

Then we'd go to school and there the teacher
For Science would let us play with mercury until we laughed with glee

 
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braddah jay
Lokahi

235 Posts

Posted - 06/21/2008 :  11:32:05 PM  Show Profile

But will we need a Haz-Mat squad to clean up the flaming material flung at Wanda? Like the bumper stickers I often see these days: "Wag more, bark less." Aloha.
[/quote]

Retro,one thing I've come to notice,your choice of words are usually on the money,honest,and considerate.Hopefully we all can learn from that,I know I can.Mahalo braddah jay.
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wcerto
Ahonui

USA
5052 Posts

Posted - 06/21/2008 :  11:37:52 PM  Show Profile
Dave/Dog and all my friends out there: First of all, I do not claim to be an expert on the topic. I posted information on here to stimulate conversation. The reason I posted this you-tube link is because I was totally flabbergasted that there would be such a mandate. Believe you me, I full well understand the implications of mercury poisoning. I had to take classes every year about the hazards of mercury because of my involvement with the Navy Level I/;Subsafe program, which prohibits manufacture of anything going on a submarine which is exposed to any kind of mercury or mercury vapors. None. Whatsoever. That is one of the things I had to do iin my job -- to verify through actual on-site reviews that the manufacturers under my surveillance had no type of mercury vapor lightiing in their facilties, nor any other kind of mercury. We had to verify that any thermometers used were alocohol thermometers. The "glib" answer about the 1 lb. mercury, was not meant to be glib. I guess that is one of the limitations of writing instead of speaking, because you could not see how incredulous I was when I read that amount. And I think many folks recall the saying "mad as a hatter", because miliners suffered detrimental health effects because of the mercury used in the hat making process.

I thank you very much for all the iinformation you posted. I thank you for helping to educate we who are ignorant. And the rest of you, especially Norman, you see the impact from the numbers you showed us.

What I am concerned about is the MANDATE to use these bulbs. There will be no choice. Incandescent bulb manufacturing will be stopped. There are no public facilities in Ohio at this time for safe disposal of mercury. I do know of industrial sites, two in Ohio, which are licensed by EPA to dispose of industrial mercurial waste, but the normal Joe cannot take his haz-mat to them for disposal.

I do not think anywhere in my poste I indicated that there were no hazards involved, nor did I trivialize anything (or mean to).

I am very sorry you suffered as you did. I can understand why you would jump all over me. But just like a dog, you jumped and bit first, when I was just trying to pet the doggy.

I do not purport to be an expert on anything. But I can learn and I like to learn. If someone will teach me.

I am sincerely sorry if I upset you or anyone out there. I still would like to see discussion on the topic, especially about a government mandate on use of CFL.

Dog has excellent points and excellent reasons for feeling the way he does. YPOChris has good points, as well. How does one balance the two needs? That is the conundrum.



Me ke aloha
Malama pono,
Wanda
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hapakid
Luna Ho`omalu

USA
1533 Posts

Posted - 06/22/2008 :  02:11:41 AM  Show Profile  Visit hapakid's Homepage
Lots of interesting takes on this. I would like to see a comparison between the cost, over a bulb's lifetime, of simply replacing a incandescent bulb with a lower wattage bulb vs. the cost of a CFL, plus, the cost of it's manufacture, plus, the cost of safe recycling. It might be comparable to the choice between a Prius (48 mpg, $22K) or a Scion XD (38 mpg, $16K). With a Prius, you spend more, get better mileage, but it takes more energy to manufacture and batteries must be replaced and recycled properly and your average mechanic can't work on it, whereas, a cheap mini car could be driven for many thousands of miles and still use less net energy (manufacture, gas, disposal) than the Prius over it's lifetime.
I think if we concentrated on what kind of light we need, how much we need and how much we use each bulb, we wouldn't replace every bulb with a CFL. Other energy saving ideas include lights on timers or motion sensors.
The cost of electrical power where you live will make a difference in your desicions, too.
I believe some so-called solutions are created to make people feel good. My wife wants a Prius. "I'll look so 'green' driving down the road" she said.
We bought a Corolla.
PS- A friend recently put a supplemental hydrogen system (about $400) on his Subaru Forester and took his mileage from 25 to 35-plus MPG. There are lots of systems available, but I believe simple adaptations like this offer the best short term and longterm solution to gasoline scarcity and costs.

Edited by - hapakid on 06/22/2008 02:18:16 AM
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ypochris
Lokahi

USA
398 Posts

Posted - 06/22/2008 :  03:38:21 AM  Show Profile
Hapakid is correct in his economic analysis of hybrids VS. fuel efficient small cars- the five year cost of both options is about the same. But what is the environmental cost? Also, purchasing hybrids encourages development and improvement of what is essentially a "Mk. 1" version, while fuel efficient cars have been taken about as far as they can go outside of size reduction. Speaking of which, what ever happend to the 50 MPG V.W. Rabbit of thirty years ago?

One thing missing in the CF/ mercury discussion is the fact that most lighting is powered by coal fueled power plants. And guess what? Burning coal releases mercury into the atmosphere- the air we breathe, the water we drink, the food we eat. And we can't just carefully clean it up like we can a broken bulb.

How many bulbs do you actually break? I rarely break a bulb, although I have learned not to use CF bulbs in a low, unprotected basement ceiling socket that I can hit with my head. My contention is that LESS mercury is used in fluorescent bulbs than the mercury prevented from being released into the atmosphere by their use, and that most of this mercury ends up in sealed, lined landfills rather than in the atmosphere we breathe, the water we drink, and the food we eat like mercury released by coal burning power plants.

And Wanda, there are many alternatives to CF bulbs if the incredibly inefficent incandecent bulbs are banned. Halogen, high and low pressure sodium, and even the recently available LED lights that I think will one day dominate the market are all more efficient alternatives.

Reducing our energy consumption is a must, for environmental as well as economic and political reasons. Ending the use of ancient, inefficient lighting technology is one small and painless step in that direction. And if doing so requires a government mandate, I congratulate and fully support whoever took that step. Now if we could just mandate higher fuel efficiency standards, energy efficient appliances, electronics that actually turn off when you press the "off" button, high percentages of wind energy in the electrical mix, solar hot water systems on every roof, and the endless list of low, no, and negative cost items that could save or environment and economy, we might actually have hope as a species.

I am all for mandates that benefit the general public. Every law passed is a mandate- do you feel we should have no laws? Someone mandated that no one build a factory next to your house- good or bad? (O.K., that one is arguable!) Someone mandated that you not murder your neighbor- good or bad? Someone mandated that your neighbor not steal from you- good or bad? So what is wrong with mandating that you not destroy the world through collective excess energy consumption?

Chris


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RWD
`Olu`olu

USA
850 Posts

Posted - 06/22/2008 :  04:05:12 AM  Show Profile
When I was a kid (around 1960) my dentist in Wialua gave me a small vile of mercury so I could shine up some coins. What was he thinking? Now I wonder if it was known to be dangerous back then.

Bob
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`Ilio Nui
`Olu`olu

USA
826 Posts

Posted - 06/22/2008 :  05:03:15 AM  Show Profile
Wanda,

I took the low road in my attack on you. I'm very sorry. No excuses. I have amended my post. The mercury message remains the same.

dog

Edited by - `Ilio Nui on 06/22/2008 05:05:26 AM
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`Ilio Nui
`Olu`olu

USA
826 Posts

Posted - 06/22/2008 :  05:14:18 AM  Show Profile
Markwitz,

Thanks for the remedial math lesson. I had the 60's 28 g/oz goin' on in my brain.

And Bruddah Duke, you hit the nail on the head. And Bruddah Duke, you hit the nail on the head. And Bruddah Duke, you hit the nail on the head. Where was I?

Pau dog
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