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Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
 Posted - 03/11/2003 : 8:08:43 PM
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I'll second the advice: "Brands don't matter, sound and quality does."
That being said, I use a Taylor 414K as my main touring and recording axe. It is flat out one of the most amazing-sounding guitars I have ever heard... and, as a recording engineer and long-time tour dog, you better believe I've heard a lot.
Couple things: first, a grand or so is nothing for a quality solid wood guitar. Even the decent Takamines, Yamahas, etc go for over a grand.
Second: wood is wood, so humidy changes do make a dif. However, I've never yet got into a situation where I had to do any thing more than a real quick truss rod adjustment to get back in the groove. And yes, I've played lots of gigs in the rain. In fact, we just had a sweet little kani kaplia in Waihe`e in a light drizzle...
So do check out the Taylor, and the Rainsong, and the sweet little Larivee parlor guitar, and the Martins and Guilds and anything else that speaks to your heart.
In the end, it's the hands that make the sound.
No matter what, I wish you great joy and lots of music. |
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richard
Aloha
USA
28 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2003 : 1:48:12 PM
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Hi, All
I just bought a new Taylor 814-LTD. Grand auditorium, no cutout, no electronics. Spruce top, cocobolo sides and back. My opinion is undoubtedly colored by having willingly paid for it...
Great action, from the factory. The truss rod will probably need to be eventually adjusted for taro patch tensions.
It has incredible sustain -- I'll have to learn a lot more about legato control. The bass notes are crystal clear with matching treble. The bass is also loud. Sort of a built-in "Leonard's Thumb"  .
I think that the sustain is due in part to the incredible hardness of cocobolo.
I'll let you know in a few months how it likes Florida's climate.
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Admin
Pupule
USA
4551 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2003 : 10:57:12 PM
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Hi Richard,
Congrats on your new guitar! Must be beautiful. Aloha to you and Toni. |
Andy |
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slackkey
Lokahi
USA
280 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2003 : 8:28:02 PM
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Hmmmm.....Talor Guitars buy or no! I have a "Baby Taylor" myself, but to this day refuse to handle the expensive Accoustic Guitars that they make! I've never tried a Taylor yet...as I mentioned I don't like to handle them...As far as my B/T is concerned, although nice, and travel friendly, beneath the sound hole there's too much wood! Also, it's seem very sensitive to weather change. One of two things must be done. Adjust it's neck or re-tune everytime. But it is a decent sounding Kid Brother of the Older Guitarlings (new word...)Have a pick-up installed, just make it louder...not better. But sure comes with an excelent Gig-Bag! Overall, I prefer my Takamine, but my Old Martin First. It's not how nice a guitar looks, the color of the wood-grain, whatever seems appealing to the eye. More importantly is how comfortable it feels beneath your fingers. Although sound is important, you could find a great sounding guitar that won't cost you an arm and a leg. As one should FEEL the music of Kiho'alu...would also apply to how good your guitar feels when playing it. A Hui Hou!
slackkey (Bill Pellazar) |
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Pauline Leland
`Olu`olu
USA
783 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2003 : 9:29:00 PM
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Hey slackkey,
You are right on target about the importance of feel. I have an old, cheap guitar I call my beater. Built like a tank, playable, but it's uncomfortable. There is something about the neck that feels wrong, too thick maybe, so I hardly ever play it. Too bad, really.
Lately, I've really preferred the uke and finally figured out why, beyond it's being easier. These old fingers don't like to stretch all that much. So I've been tuning down and capoing up the good guitars to make them fun to play again with a shorter scale length. Hey, I should try that on the beater! Beach guitar! 'Course around here, Puget Sound, you usually have to wear woolies when you visit the beach. And fingerless gloves so you can play guitar or uke.  I've heard the diving is good. Chilly but good. |
Pauline |
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slackkey
Lokahi
USA
280 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2003 : 10:38:07 PM
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Aloha Pauline! Great to hear from you! Right now the temperature here in Paia, Maui is 80* in the shade ...Sure could use some of the Puget Sound cold weather! BTW! Where is Puget Sound?
Ahhh! The very easy and all around instrument "THE UKULELE" ..Although I passed my old 6-string "Kamaka Ukulele" (the Lili'u) to my Daughter, I still find alot of joy picking it up to play still. My introduction to the world of sound plus musical instrument was non other than the 'uke....
Hey Pauline! You and I should have a cyber-style jam! Wa-da-ya-think pilgrim? Keep playing your beach guitar and have a blast with it. I got one too! One day, grab hold of two simple tape recorders, record youself with the uke first, then take it out put it down then record yourself on another blank tape, following the song just played on the 'uke with your guitar! Of course you may already have one of them sophisticated recording studios.
Where am I going with this you're probably thinking It's just a way when I was younger, that I found out I could record myself playing two different instruments, using two tape recorders and playing a song like a two-part band....me &...ME!!!!! Ha! ha! ha! Keep playing that Slack Key Puline, some day I may just end up in a park with my guitar in your neighborhood!
Take care Pauline! God Bless, Good Health and Prosperity! See-ya when I see-ya! A Hui Hou!
slackkey (Bill Pellazar) |
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ohanabrown
Lokahi
281 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2003 : 12:20:39 AM
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ALOHA, MARK
WE ALL HAD A GREAT TIME AT WAIHEE!
MAHALO FOR TAKING SOME TIME OFF TO
JOIN US. YOU COULD'VE BEEN ENJOYING
MORE OF MAUI, BUT CAME TO PLAY WITH
US INSTEAD.
SO SORRY ANNIE WE DID'NT GET TO MEET YOU.
MAYBE IN MAY?
HEY PEOPLE, MARKS GUITAR IS THE BOMB!!!!
TRIED IT, AND WAS HOPING MARK WOULD'VE
FORGOTTON IT IN WAIHEE...haa,haa,
THANKS FOR THE NAHENAHE MUSIC MARK!
HOPE YOU CAN MAKE IT AGAIN IN MAY.
MALAMA PONO!
KEVIN
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Kevin K. Brown |
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Pauline Leland
`Olu`olu
USA
783 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2003 : 12:58:13 AM
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Hey slackkey,
Jus' a quick geography lesson, Puget Sound is the name of the chunk of the Pacific Ocean that pokes way into Washington State. Seattle sits beside it.
We don't get your warm ocean water, but we get your rain. The Pineapple Express rode the jetstream into town for the last few days and all our rivers are flooding. Turn off the water! |
Pauline |
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Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2003 : 8:53:05 PM
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Mahalo Ken -
I had a ball meeting you and hanging with my Aloha Camp buds.
Sorry, couldn't find a way to forget the guitar in Waihee. It's sitting next to me in my studio, waiting it's turn to lay down some tracks for the new album I've been talking about for ten years now.
Speaking of CDs, I'll be back on Maui for most of May mixing one for some guitar player. We'll have to hook up again.
And speaking of Taylors -- ya don't have to pay an arm and a leg. Sure, the big number series are expensive -- so's a Martin, a Guild, a Gibson, a Larivee, a Rainsong and just about any other axe you can name. But the 300 and 400's are solid, working folks tools. I wouldn't base an opinion on the Baby -- it's built real light to get some tone out of what is essentially a half-sized box.
If I ever figure out how to send pix, I'll post one of me and the baby taylor knee-deep in the Aitutaki lagoon. Talk about truss rod adjustment...
Cheers,
Mark |
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wdf
Ha`aha`a
USA
1153 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2003 : 10:45:32 PM
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Mark, is this it? |
Dusty |
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cmdrpiffle
`Olu`olu
USA
553 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2003 : 01:47:49 AM
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Gotta reply to this one.
I am a staunch devotee' of quality not brand. I've seen many $200.00 guitars out-sound the higher priced ones.
That said, I've never owned a Taylor guitar. I have played maybe 15+ different ones over the years. (Taylors) For the most part, I have been x-tremely impressed with the sound of the majority of them. I took my friend Randys' 'baby Taylor' to a blues fest in Tucson a couple of years ago. Nice sounding guitar for something so small with screws showing in the fretboard!
Hell, one day last August, I left my guitar in my room and borrowed Mark's vaunted 414k for an hour. (thank you Mark!) I would have traded my first born for a week with that guitar. Talk about a plain jane (no offense) straightforward guitar that sounds like nirvana. No frills, no binding if I remember...but one of the sweetest sounding instruments I've heard. Bob Taylor did some things very right.
On the other side of the coin, I've seen the mark up that Taylor forces on dealers. Not to say that it isn't a first rate instrument, they are. In the end, it is the quality of construction/skill of the people binding the adhesives to the purflings, so to speak, that make the difference. The 20 odd something worker in Taiwan applying their skills with wood and glue can be just a skilled as the 20 odd something worker in Long Beach. It's sometimes too easy to equate quality with high price. Quite a few 'boutique' manufacturers in the States will set a point price with dealers to recover their higher costs. The advertising they generate sells the buying public on the cost equals quality merit.
I recently played a guitar manufactured by extremely skilled craftswomen/men made in a foreign country. The msrp was 489.00 the sale price was 229.00 + shipping, the cost to the dealer was 115.00, and the cost of manufacture was about 35.00. Thirty five dollars for a solid spurce top guitar, built to good/above good standards. The workers involved in making the guitar received 10 months of intensive training in the specialized skills involved in making the guitar. All in all, an instrument that equals what was coming out of the best shops in America 5 years ago.
It is an extremely competitive arena. In the 1960's, 'made in Japan' had the negative implications of substandard quality. 25 years later, the consuming public in this country saw fit to forsake the higher priced lesser quality 'made in the USA' products in favor of quality. Not price, quality.
Bob Taylor will introduce a made in Korea guitar in the next 3 years. Its survival. The present trend of $2000.00 and up for American made high end guitars will eventually force the makers to produce lesser cost versions. At first overseas, and then domestically. Look at Fender, Gibson, Martin, Guild and Ovation. All high end, and exclusive at some point in their history.
This is all a roundabout view. I as a member of the consuming public,I only care that my guitar is well made, and sounds good. If I could afford a high end Taylor, and it sounded good, I no doubt would purchase one. If I found one that sounded as good, at a lesser price, I'd but that. Question is, would I consider the 'inferior' brand? You bet.
Its all about the Tone! (so wanted to say that)
Lastly, someone will no doubt raise the question of questionable working practices overseas....IE in Asia.
I lived until I was 17 in Asia. China, Taiwan, and Japan. Some of the coastal areas of China, Guangzou, Shanghai etc very well have some horrid conditions for workers. That is not the case in Taiwan, Japan, and Korea. Those are very modern, often far exceeding the US in quality of work and life. If you want to point out sweatshop conditions, look to the garmet/manufacturing/foodservice industry in the United States. Not pretty, but true.
In the end, I would love to see Taylor become a dreadnaught of the industry. Gawd knows, they produce some sweet guitars. For the size of the company, probably the best there is. I don't want to see them have to forsake quality because they couldnt be competetive when they price themselves out of the market.
When a company goes through that, they decree manufacturing to cheaper areas, quality suffers, then, they slowly bring the quality up after the initial switch. Fender moved their bulk manufacturing to Japan in the early 80's. Quality suffered. Then came up. Now, the made in Japan Fenders are the 'quality' guitars, the made in Mexico next, and the made in Koreas' last. They (Fender) still have a small 'Made in the USA' custom shop, but it accounts for less than 3% of their sales.
A very large company like Fender can usually weather such a move. They however almost didnt. The company was very close to selling out in the late 80's.
I so dont want to see Taylor go through that. If they were a small company they could survive on boutique prices. They are not, and are getting more popular each year. That alone will eventually force the need to cut operating costs to remain competetive.
It's a double edged sword, but the mere fact that there are consumers willing to pay more than worth for a name, will some day force the name into decline.
Feel free to send hate mail to: piffle77 @ yahoo.com
I am
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my Poodle is smarter than your honor student |
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ohanabrown
Lokahi
281 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2003 : 03:38:23 AM
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Aloha Mark
SOUNDS GOOD!...SEE YOU IN MAY.
IF THERES ANYTHING I CAN DO
FOR YOU LET ME KNOW!
HUI HOU!
KEVIN |
Kevin K. Brown |
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Fran Guidry
Ha`aha`a
USA
1579 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2003 : 08:43:23 AM
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quote:
On the other side of the coin, I've seen the mark up that Taylor forces on dealers. Not to say that it isn't a first rate instrument, they are. In the end, it is the quality of construction/skill of the people binding the adhesives to the purflings, so to speak, that make the difference. The 20 odd something worker in Taiwan applying their skills with wood and glue can be just a skilled as the 20 odd something worker in Long Beach.
This is a statement that I have to disagree with. Not that the Taiwanese workers are less skilled, but their skill defines the result. We're talking about mass produced, assembly line, volume production here, and in that situation the defining elements in the quality are the materials, the design, and the process. It's true that a worker can screw things up by sabotage, but aside from that the engineer sets the quality limit, not the worker.
Your argument is the same that I've heard to villify American assembly line workers when comparing Japanese cars to American cars. And it's crap in that context too. Japanese cars zoomed past American cars in quality because the engineers designed in the quality, specified parts built to higher tolerances, and designed processes that reduced error.
Those Taiwanese guitar factory workers are using plywood and underseasoned, lower quality solid woods like nato to assemble parts built to less precise tolerances. They're using lower quality glues and finishes, less accurate jigs, and are given less time to complete the work.
Within those limits, an occasional stellar instrument may slip through, but the vast majority are going to be less successful musical instruments than the Taylor 414s of this world. I've gone through the wall of Asian made instruments at my local Guitar Center and played thirty different guitars without finding one that came close to the Taylor 414 in the "high end" room next door. Yes, the Taylor cost $1300 instead of $300. If I only had $300 I would play every guitar in my price range and take what I could get. But I wouldn't expect to find a guitar with the playability, tone, volume, sustain, or build quality of that Taylor.
Does a Baby Taylor match a Taylor 414 in sound and playability? Is it the skill of the worker or the design and materials that make the difference?
Fran
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E ho`okani pila kakou ma Kaleponi
Slack Key Guitar in California - www.kaleponi.com
Slack Key on YouTube
Homebrewed Music Blog |
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cmdrpiffle
`Olu`olu
USA
553 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2003 : 1:15:08 PM
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Ouch, strike a nerve Fran? Its not personal. Your last paragraph puts together nicely what I was trying to explain in my post.
Mike |
my Poodle is smarter than your honor student |
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aplenty
Akahai
62 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2003 : 3:46:01 PM
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A very interesting discussion... a few thoughts to share...
One of the benefits of 'slack key' is that when you tune down an inexpensive guitar it will usually sound better... so you can get some great tones.
Also, I have to say player ability is a factor... I've heard excellent musicians make 'toy' instruments sound great... eeking tones and moving music out of bad strings and poor quality instruments...
And I also know that an instrument that has an outstanding voice will inspire players to create... sometimes I think the instrument is leading the way.
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Aloha nui,
Sandy & Doug |
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