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wcerto
Ahonui
USA
5052 Posts |
 Posted - 01/28/2009 : 03:22:42 AM
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We had family over for dinner on Sunday. We were listening to Ozzie's new CD and everyone enjoyed the beautiful music. Paul's brother David posed a question as to whether the same sounds, same beautiful music could be played in regular guitar tuning instead of a slack key. Would it be possible to duplicate the sounds. Paul said no because of the bass.
What do you guys think? If it could be done, why isn't it, or is that just normal finger picking?
Could Duke play Slack Key Hula and then like for instance Carlos Santana duplicate the same thing, sound exactly the same, in regular tuning?
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Me ke aloha
Malama pono,
Wanda |
Edited by - wcerto on 01/28/2009 03:23:16 AM |
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wcerto
Ahonui
USA
5052 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2009 : 05:18:10 AM
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Dont Led play in standard also too?
Here you can listen to Bla play Maori Brown Eyes from his Mana CD. I do not think he plays very often in slack key. http://www.mele.com/music/artist/bla+pahinui/mana/ But what Bla plays is not like what Duke plays or Zack or anyone else what plays Maori Brown Eyes.
And, yeah, Dukie, da Palolo/Chino Montero does indeed sound like slack key. Hmmmm. |
Me ke aloha
Malama pono,
Wanda |
Edited by - wcerto on 01/28/2009 05:31:38 AM |
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Trev
Lokahi
United Kingdom
265 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2009 : 05:29:19 AM
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I'm with Paul and Sir Duke. It's certainly the bass - you can't play D on the bass if your lowest string only goes down to E - you can only play the notes you've got - but it's also to do with the way the open strings ring I think.
But more than that I think it's the musical 'language' and conventions of the Hawaiian music that make it unique, rather than simply the tunings.
'Normal' fingerpickers use open tunings as well, (certainly in my part of the world) but while they might know the same tunings as a Hawaiian player might (say, Taropatch), it won't sound much like Hawaiian music unless they're familiar with the style.
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Russell Letson
`Olu`olu
USA
504 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2009 : 07:57:26 AM
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It depends. As Wanda points out, a chunk of Led's repertory--for example, some of of the Uncle Fred material--is set in standard. But despite its name, slack key is a style, not a tuning, and the tunings enable the style. Unlike jazz guitar, which generally strives to free the music from the limitations of the guitar's layout, slack key (like Piedmont fingerstyle and Delta blues and other folk traditions) is strongly guitaristic: it builds on or even depends on the instrument's unique qualities. Thus the alternating bass, which is well suited to the hula, march, and paniolo rhythms that are the backbone of the tradition. Maybe you can't get the exact effects of taropatch in standard, but it is possible to play plenty of popular Hawaiian songs in standard and sound idiomatic, because the tradition also includes phrasing that can be reproduced even without the exact bass pattern. In fact, I was fooling around with the version of "Moloka`i Waltz" on Mark Nelson's "Old Time" CD and found that it sounds perfectly Hawaiian played in standard, particularly in G.
It's hard to think of Bla's playing as anything but slack key, even though he plays mainly in drop-D, which is 5/6 standard. Of course, that D bass gives him an alternating-octave bass pattern, and a capo (or dropping all six down a whole tone) gives all kinds of key options. On the, um, third hand, Bla plays left-handed upside-down--but if one plays two-finger, as many traditional pickers do, that's not a big deal. (Finger, thumb, who's keeping score.) Then there's Keola's C-wahine (C-G-D-G-B-E), which is standard on top with the E and A dropped.
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Edited by - Russell Letson on 01/28/2009 07:58:27 AM |
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Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2009 : 08:19:01 AM
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Actually, this is a great question, Wanda, and I hope we here from Peter or some of the other Hawaiian players..
From my limited perspective, it's not about the tunings. As Russell says, it's a style. Some slack key tunings allow you to use the bass in certain ways--Taropatch and F Wahine, f'rinstance give you automatic alternating bass for the tonic and dominant chords.
But other slack key tunings don't do that-- neither the Bb that Sonny Lim plays, or the D maj (Eb maj) that George plays have open alternating basses.
The first Hawaiian guitarist I met, Bradda Matt Manewa, plays exclusively in standard tuning. But you want sweet??? Hoo boy!
quote:
Could Duke play Slack Key Hula and then like for instance Carlos Santana duplicate the same thing, sound exactly the same, in regular tuning?
I taught slack at a music camp back east a few years ago. One of the other instructors, blues musician Scott Ainsley, sat in the class. Scott could pick up the notes real quick--taropatch is just open G, a standard blues tuning-- but he never got the feel. I kept telling him to stop snapping the bass strings and bending notes and get in touch with his sweet side. He said blues doesn't have a sweet side... |
Edited by - Mark on 01/28/2009 1:24:23 PM |
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noeau
Ha`aha`a
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2009 : 09:03:02 AM
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| The key of E is good to play slack key in standard because the bass is played open. At least thats what I used to see. I thought Kuʻu home ʻO Kahaluʻu was played in E for a long time because I figured chords for it in E. Also when Led played with Hui ʻOhana he played that key a lot.I think thas wot I saw I might be mistaken but I not wrong. |
No'eau, eia au he mea pa'ani wale nō. |
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wcerto
Ahonui
USA
5052 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2009 : 09:17:47 AM
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I believe I have heard that one of the Lee Bros. (Home and Ugh ), i.e., Mick Jagger and Keith Richards, who plays in Taro Patch but certainly nothing he does sounds like slack key to me.
So giving slack key a definition is not an easy task at all. I thought it was simple enough to talk about playing in non-standard tunings with an alternating bass line. Somehow have to add the aloha in there, because as I have said before, just playing the notes in the right place at the right time doesn't make it feel Hawaiian. It is that elusive other thing that makes the music that I love. |
Me ke aloha
Malama pono,
Wanda |
Edited by - wcerto on 01/28/2009 09:30:52 AM |
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slipry1
Ha`aha`a
USA
1511 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2009 : 09:19:11 AM
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1. My experience with Led is that he plays a lot in standard tuning, but his style is definitely Hawaiian. When he plays lead, as with Mike, he usually is playing lead and fills, so, in my observations, he stays in standard tuning. His playing, though, clearly transcends the guitar. He can do anything he wants on the instrument. True with ukulele, too.
2. As for transcending the instrument in jazz, that is the goal of every musician, no matter what instrument is being played. I remember seeing Stefane Grapelli and David Grisman back in the late 70's. Grisman's lines were clearly based on chord formation, while Garpelli's completely transcended the violin - his improvisations were beautiful and awesome!
3. I've played with Chino Montero here in Seattle, and he, too, has transcended the guitar. He can sound any way he wants. It was a joy to play with him. |
keaka |
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Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2009 : 1:21:20 PM
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quote:
Keith Richards, who plays in Taro Patch but certainly nothing he does sounds like slack key to me.
Which it isn't. Just cuz it is an open tuning does not make it slack key... or blues, for that matter. Music isn't about tunings, it's about music.
Keith Richards often plays in open G tuning with the low string removed. He most certainly does not play in Taropatch tuning-- same notes, but I doubt he or anyone else would call it that. If you are a blues head, you might call it "Spanish" tuning-- named after "Spanish Fandango," a popular 19th Century guitar piece. And no, "Spanish Fandango" isn't slack key, either. Nor is my open G arrangement of "Panxty Fanny Poer," an O`Carolan harp tune, slack key.
Please, for gawd's sake, let's not go down the "what's the definition of slack key?" road again. It has been beaten to death in these pages...
Almost as much as the "Is Posting in Broken English a Turn Off?" thread.
So, after 85 folders, have you guys found an answer yet????  |
Edited by - Mark on 01/28/2009 1:22:35 PM |
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Peter Medeiros
`Olu`olu
546 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2009 : 1:49:01 PM
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Az won kanaka maoli and speaking on behalf of da savages.
Yeah we found da ansa long time ago and we wen discova
hahd fo walk wen da okole come tight. I like laff. Sheesh Jes wen I tot we waz getting ahead anden. All we doin iz talkin story anden. |
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Momi
Lokahi
402 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2009 : 2:02:32 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by The Adroit Jeffersonian:
So, after 85 folders, have you guys found an answer yet????
Yes, but that hasn't stopped us yet. |
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wcerto
Ahonui
USA
5052 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2009 : 2:06:27 PM
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I thought my brother-in-law's question was a good one for one who has not experienced very much slack key at all. His only tastes of it have come at our house. I know he liked Braddah Iz, as an intro to Hawaiian music and I gave him the Iz CD with the quack quack quack joke. But this really was the first time he really got serious asking Paul about slack key. And the first time he got all the paniolo story and all that. And him, being a quizzical guy and kind of a myth-busters kinda hands-on experiemnter type guy, he was postulating about whether it could be done. I thought it was swell that someone who does not play an instrument was interested enough to pose such a thought provoking question.
We are not trying at this point to once again define what is slack key. Anyone you ask who has experienced it will have a different answer. But I think it has been answered pretty much as I posed it that someone who KNOWS and FEELS slack key can make normal tuning sound like slack key. I think maybe more accurately is to make it sound like traditional Hawaiian music as is frequently played in slack key guitar style.
We are talking story. We like to talk story. Those who like to talk story join in and talk more story. And so on.
Tha is why I did not post the thread under Hawaiian Music on account someone would yell at me for talking story in the wrong forum.
That's why the 85 pages on that other thread may end up to be 185 pages.
As Petah says, sheesh and den. |
Me ke aloha
Malama pono,
Wanda |
Edited by - wcerto on 01/28/2009 2:59:38 PM |
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cpatch
Ahonui
USA
2187 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2009 : 2:32:59 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark
Please, for gawd's sake, let's not go down the "what's the definition of slack key?" road again. It has been beaten to death in these pages...
Ever heard the song, "The Cat Came Back?" Same principle:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=rKmQr0EnZgs or
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=8Kj1Fsf9a2U |
Craig
My goal is to be able to play as well as people think I can. |
Edited by - cpatch on 01/28/2009 2:36:52 PM |
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Peter Medeiros
`Olu`olu
546 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2009 : 2:35:34 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by wcerto
As Petah says, sheesh and den.
Wanda,
Anden is in da den class of words."...and den" should be won word like anden. Usually comes befoa da period or question mahk. Sometimes can be afta da period like wen you stahting won santance, would be like won conjunction almos.
kden = Like wen you pau talkin story -- az in conclusion.
denwot = Comes befoa you say wot. Do not blink wen you say this.
wotden = Afta you wen say wot, give stink eye and befoa da fight.
hooden = Who? Da bugga who wen crank you fo gettin smaht. So no ack anden.
moden = As in I get moden you? Oa you get moden me?
byden = Da Vice President USA
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braddah jay
Lokahi
235 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2009 : 2:40:39 PM
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| Eh mark one question,you get relatives in California? Was just wondering,you remind me of someone. |
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wcerto
Ahonui
USA
5052 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2009 : 3:02:09 PM
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Prof. Petah - Mahalo for one nodda good lesson. Bumbai I get akamai. Or at least on da road to it. Kden.
Jay- you one kolohe buggah. You owe me fiddy dollah. |
Me ke aloha
Malama pono,
Wanda |
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