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Puluke
Aloha
USA
36 Posts |
 Posted - 09/04/2011 : 07:55:59 AM
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Aloha
I fell in love with slack key guitar while on visits to the Big Island and to Kauai, and finally decided to try learning it. After searching these forums for suggestions (very helpful!), I bought a copy of Ozzie Kotani's book; a couple weeks later I think I'm making nice progress, having gone through its first two songs. At this point I have a few questions and would be truly grateful for any and all help.
- First, with my right hand I'm plucking with my fingertips, giving a somewhat muted sound rather than the "fat" sound I hear on recordings. Should I be using my fingernails almost as a pick? Or should the nail just give "backing" to the flesh of the fingetip? When I try plucking with the nail, my fingerpicking just goes to heck.
- Next, I've seen posts here and elsewhere regarding string spacing, suggesting that wider might be better. What's consider wide?
- Finally, I'm playing an old Yamaha and will eventually want to get something better. As somebody who isn't ready to spend thousands, what should I be looking for in a guitar for slack key? Any specific models that might be recommended?
I plan on getting Ozzie's first DVD when I can find it and look forward to one day progressing beyond that. In the meantime I'm truly enjoying being indirectly part of something so beautiful.
Mahalo 
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- Bruce |
Edited by - Puluke on 06/14/2012 5:27:28 PM |
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Pops
Lokahi
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2011 : 4:18:52 PM
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Puluke,
Welcome! I glad you're enjoying learning slack key. Ozzie's book is an excellent starting point and his accompanying DVDs are wonderful, also. Visit his website to purchase those great aids. As to how to pick with your right hand, there's one question to ask: what sound do you prefer? I know wonderful players who use their fingernails and others who use their fingertips and both achieve great results. I've played for 45+ years and I hate using my nails because I hate having long fingernails. They're just uncomfortable to me. As to string spacing, again, try to find a guitar that's comfortable for you. I know folks who play on the whole spectrum of guitars and I convinced that a good player should be able to make good music on just about any decent guitar. For my money, the point is to learn the music with respect, to play with aloha in your heart and enjoy the music. As for what type of guitar to play, again I'd say one that's comfortable for you. If you like the Yamaha, and it's set-up appropriately, you should be fine. You don't have to drop a boatload of money on a guitar. After you've played for a while you can try different types of guitars, steel vs nylon strings, different body types, etc., and you should be able to feel or hear what sounds right to you. Any decently set-up guitar should be adequate to get you on your way. Best of luck to you! |
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rendesvous1840
Ha`aha`a
USA
1055 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2011 : 4:49:42 PM
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Many players use both nails and the fleshy part of the fingers at different times to get a choice of sounds, rather than limiting themselves to only one sound. If your strings are too light, they may sound muted, if so you may need a slightly heavier gauge set of strings. Especially when playing in slack key tunings.You need a certain amount of tension to drive the sound board.
Unko Paul |
"A master banjo player isn't the person who can pick the most notes.It's the person who can touch the most hearts." Patrick Costello |
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thumbstruck
Ahonui
USA
2168 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2011 : 04:25:55 AM
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| I play barefingered with short fingernails. When I play a gig or at a jam, I use medium guage brass fingerpicks and a plastic thumbpick. It's good to be comfortable with both for different circumstances. I have pretty stout callouses on my finger pads. Play comfortably. |
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Fran Guidry
Ha`aha`a
USA
1579 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2011 : 05:04:31 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Puluke
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- First, with my right hand I'm plucking with my fingertips, giving a somewhat muted sound rather than the "fat" sound I hear on recordings. Should I be using my fingernails almost as a pick? Or should the nail just give "backing" to the flesh of the fingetip? When I try plucking with the nail, my fingerpicking just goes to heck.
- Next, I've seen posts here and elsewhere regarding string spacing, suggesting that wider might be better. What's consider wide?
- Finally, I'm playing a 30-year od Yamaha FG-332-1 (restrung with John Pearse 800's) and will eventually want to get something better. As somebody who isn't ready to spend thousands, what should I be looking for in a guitar for slack key? Any specific models that might be recommended?
...
Your plucking technique will evolve as will all aspects of your playing so at this stage experimentation is the key. The normal description of a fat-toned stroke involves both nail and flesh, with the fingertip delivering the power and the nail adding a bit of drive and zing, but it's quite possible to get a fat tone with just flesh, it's a matter of touch and follow through. Happily, our mind-body has a remarkable ability to finesse the small adjustments needed to create a pleasant tone, if you just keep trying different things.
I'm one of the wide string spacing guys. In the evolution of steel string guitars, they started out wide then got more and more narrow at both ends (nut and bridge) then in the last 20 years or so we've seen the return of some models with wider spacing. Narrow would be a standard series Martin like a D-28 or 000-28, which has 1 11/16" nut width and 2 1/8" bridge spacing. These guitars also have a neck width at the 12th fret of 2 1/8". I found this playing geometry difficult, my fretting hand hit too many strings, my plucking hand cramped and complained. Remember, this was my personal experience, and many (thousands) of people have played fingerstyle and slack key on guitars like this. But my fingers are old and creaking so I went looking for a more friendly layout.
Today there are many many guitars with a 1 3/4" nut width. There are fewer but still many with 2 1/4" or wider bridge spacing. A 1/16" difference doesn't sound like much but it really is significant to my fingers. My optimum is 1 13/16 at the nut and 2 3/8 at the bridge, but this is unavailable on production guitars.
As far as recommendations for a slack key guitar, any good guitar will do a good job. Good guitar being defined as one that is easy to play and produces an enjoyable sound. Martin is the standard of the world, players like Gabby Pahinui, Sonny Chillingworth, and Ledward Kaapana use(d) them. But Martin's lower cost models are quite different from their traditional designs so research is required no matter what brand. Gibson doesn't seem to have a huge following among slack key players. Taylor has had a lot of success, even sponsoring the O`ahu Slack Key Festival at least one year. Ozzie plays a Taylor Grand Concert among others. Japanese brands like Yamaha, Ibanez, and Takamine are popular and offer a dizzying spectrum of models. These days there's a broad field of all solid instruments made in China under many different brand names. I use Epiphone Masterbilt EF models, but others include Blueridge, Recording King, and some from Guild. If you travel with your instrument you might be interested in composite guitars that are resistant to humidity and temperature changes, like the Rainsong, Blackbird, Ovation, and Composite Acoustics.
Looking at this essay you might guess that the topic of guitars is a vast one, and that some of us a just a tiny bit obsessed by them <grin>.
Fran |
E ho`okani pila kakou ma Kaleponi
Slack Key Guitar in California - www.kaleponi.com
Slack Key on YouTube
Homebrewed Music Blog |
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Russell Letson
`Olu`olu
USA
504 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2011 : 07:16:56 AM
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Fran's take on right-hand technique strikes me as reasonable (and in line with a lot of classical practice). My own right-hand nails are just visible peeking over the fingertips when I look at my hand from the palm side. Nail strength varies a lot, though, so you might have to keep yours shorter and/or look into various nail-hardening methods.
A suitable guitar is always the one that sounds good to you and is comfortable to play, though sometimes an experienced listener can tell you something about what the audience hears. And be aware that a music store (especially an "acoustic room') with walls of other guitars around you is not a typical sonic environment.
Neck geometry does matter, but it's impossible to predict what someone else will find workable. I'm all over the place--my old Guild has a 1-11/16" neck, my Goodall is 1-3/4, and my Cloutier is 1-7/8. Just as important to me is the neck profile--too thin and my left hand tends to cramp, so I prefer a fatter neck. On the other, um, hand, slack key doesn't require the kinds of grips that swing chords do, so the range of comfy necks is greater when I'm in taropatch.
As far as respectable, affordable instruments go, they're all over the place. Chinese-built guitars (Blueridge, Eastman, Guild GAD series) are much, much better than entry-level guitars used to be. My own current choice for an inexpensive guitar would be the new Taylor GS Mini--I was loaned one to do a slack-key piece at an open mike and it performed really well. I've played a half-dozen now and found them quite consistent in sound and build quality. But guitars are like shoes--you're the only one who's going to be able to judge what's comfortable for you.
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RWD
`Olu`olu
USA
850 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2011 : 12:56:13 AM
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I would like to give my 2 cents worth on the tone issue since I have spent a considerable amount of time working on it.
The best tone comes from a combination of flesh & nail with the nail making the difference between good, and great tone.
This is how great tone happens:
when you pick, the flesh dampens and briefly mutes the string just before the nail makes contact. It is the nail that gives the best and clearest tone but it makes a click without the flesh muting just before contact.
The touch and timing of flesh/nail contact happens with time and practice. I don't think the average player actually thinks about it but it happens naturally as you get better.
Great tone also happens when a stroke does not create extra noise!
It is amazing just how much noise can be created by a poor stroke.
-Flesh alone causes noise from the finger prints rubbing on the string and it is not nearly as crisp.
-Nail alone will cause an annoying clicking noise.
-A stroke that crosses the strings at an exaggerated angle--as many players do--creates noise from the finger prints and nail swiping across the strings prior to release.
All of theses things are audible if you pay attention! Many players will not notice the noise until they step into a quiet room to record something--then comes the revelation.
I know of and love to listen to many really good guitar players that use only flesh and no nail and they sound very good indeed. Even so, in my opinion there is only one best way to create tone.
If you need any clarification to what I have suggested, get Ozzie's DVD and take a look. His technique is very good. It is basically a classical technique BTW.
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Bob |
Edited by - RWD on 09/06/2011 05:31:19 AM |
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wcerto
Ahonui
USA
5052 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2011 : 02:27:15 AM
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| Happy Birthday, Bob! |
Me ke aloha
Malama pono,
Wanda |
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RWD
`Olu`olu
USA
850 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2011 : 05:31:54 AM
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| Thanks Wanda, 61 :) |
Bob |
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Allen M Cary
Lokahi
USA
158 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2011 : 07:51:18 AM
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I would have to agree with Fran and RWD about guitars and nails. I build guitars as a hobby and try to make good fingerstyle set ups, for which I tend to copy my Taylor 612 Grand Concert which is about perfect for me in string spacing (1 3/4 nut, 2 1/4 bridge). For the most part I would avoid Dreadnoughts, because they tend to be set up for flat picking and strumming, and have narrower spacing as a result.
A while back I posted a link to Michael Chapdelaine's web site at U New Mexico. He has a very good treatise for his beginning Classical Guitar students on great tone and how nails affect this: (music.unm.edu/department_areas/guitar/ChapdelaineLesson1.pdf).
I struggle with my index fingernail's having a congenital split in the middle and a tendancy for the middle fingernail to curve down once it gets more than 1/8" long. I got a nice tip from Kinloch Nelson at the Healdsburg Guitar Festival. To strengthen the tips of the nails (and fix splits) stretch a small bit of tissue paper over just the top 1/4" of the nail and soak it with CA glue. This will give you a good temporary nail without risking the damage to the nail bed that is inherent with acrylic (fake) nails. The fix lasts a couple weeks and is otherwise unnoticeable (no sensation of extra weight that fake nails give you).
Aloha,
Allen |
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Allen M Cary
Lokahi
USA
158 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2011 : 09:44:50 AM
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I was just asked "what is CA glue?" I tend to hang on luthier sites and forget about the jargon. CA Glue is cyano-acrylate, better known as "Crazy Glue."
Aloha,
Allen |
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Retro
Ahonui
USA
2368 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2011 : 11:32:13 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Allen M Cary
I was just asked "what is CA glue?"
I assumed it was what you placed in the San Andreas Fault, in order to keep California from sinking into the sea in an earthquake. |
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Allen M Cary
Lokahi
USA
158 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2011 : 12:39:51 PM
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| Yea, we use it by the tanker load here. See how it well works. The stress built up, but the quake had to go the East Coast! |
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cyril
Lokahi
USA
110 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2011 : 08:17:46 AM
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That feeling of love for the music is where to start then learn the cords and come by to play anytime the way is open. Nana ka maka; ho‘olohe ka pepeiao -watch with the eyes, and listen with the ears.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlFOtAfczXM&feature=related
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Cyril Pahinui
cyril.cyrilpahinui.com |
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Pops
Lokahi
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2011 : 1:40:31 PM
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| Well said, Uncle Cyril! |
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Puluke
Aloha
USA
36 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2011 : 6:57:37 PM
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Mahalo to all for sharing your insights and encouragement. As I've continued to practice, my tone has improved though I'm hard pressed to say just what I'm doing differently. In any case, maybe I was expecting too much too soon.
Regarding Ozzie Kotani's DVD, can anyone suggest where it might be available? Slack-key.net has been down for at least several days, and everywhere else the DVD is out of stock. |
- Bruce |
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Beginner - First post, with questions
