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salmonella
Lokahi
240 Posts |
 Posted - 08/03/2009 : 6:45:17 PM
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In a desperate move to get some practice playing along with others I decided to try playing with a standard CD recording of a well known mele.
I tuned the guitar with a chromatic tuner (440) and hit the play button on the Cd player.
The guitar, compared to the recorded sound, was flat by quite a lot.
Is this common?
What likely causes it? Is there anything to be done other than buy a very expensive set of stereo equipment or playing/singing out of tune?
Dave
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Edited by - salmonella on 08/03/2009 6:46:01 PM |
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ricdoug
`Olu`olu
USA
513 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2009 : 8:58:13 PM
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| The term "Slack Key" is the answer to your question. Tune your guitar sharp to match the music. Ric |
It's easier to ask for forgiveness, than permission! |
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Trev
Lokahi
United Kingdom
265 Posts |
Posted - 08/04/2009 : 01:57:40 AM
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Yep, 'fraid so. The best answer is to tune the guitar to the record.
It used to be a lot more common, before tuners were readily available. There's records where guitars are just in tune with themselves, and no external reference. Some bluegrassers apparently tune a bit sharp of concert pitch on purpose just to make it sound brighter and more exciting.
No matter how expensive the stereo, if it was recorded a bit sharp, then it will always play back a bit sharp. There are pitch shifting devices you could theoretically buy and tinker with, but retuning your guitar is by far the cheapest, quickest and easiest option, I would say. |
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Fran Guidry
Ha`aha`a
USA
1579 Posts |
Posted - 08/04/2009 : 04:25:21 AM
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Actually, with free software like Audacity it's quite possible and simple to alter the pitch and tempo independently. There are artifacts but the music still comes through just fine.
Fran |
E ho`okani pila kakou ma Kaleponi
Slack Key Guitar in California - www.kaleponi.com
Slack Key on YouTube
Homebrewed Music Blog |
Edited by - Fran Guidry on 08/04/2009 04:25:56 AM |
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`Ilio Nui
`Olu`olu
USA
826 Posts |
Posted - 08/04/2009 : 04:29:03 AM
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| Ditto to Frans comment. Audacity is da bomb and IT'S FREE |
Wag More. Bark Less |
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Trev
Lokahi
United Kingdom
265 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2009 : 01:22:09 AM
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I've never come across Audacity. It sounds like it could be very useful for exactly this sort of thing, and for other purposes as well - slowing down things you want to learn for instance.
Me, I'd still rather go with the simple option and spend a few seconds retuning. But there's more than one way to skin a rabbit, isn't there? |
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rendesvous1840
Ha`aha`a
USA
1055 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2009 : 11:25:49 AM
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If your guitar is sharp, tune down, but if your guitar is flat, try a capo instead of raising all your strings.
Unko Paul |
"A master banjo player isn't the person who can pick the most notes.It's the person who can touch the most hearts." Patrick Costello |
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hwnmusiclives
`Olu`olu
USA
580 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2009 : 02:38:13 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by salmonella
The guitar, compared to the recorded sound, was flat by quite a lot.
Is this common?
What likely causes it? Is there anything to be done other than buy a very expensive set of stereo equipment or playing/singing out of tune?
Dave
Nobody has actually answered this part of your question yet.
It is not as common as it used to be. But it still happens. Sometimes it is a mastering mistake. Other times it is an artistic decision.
I once recorded a tune in C because it was easier to play in that key. But keys convey moods, and I found that this very sad song was much too happy in C. So I adjusted the master down to B - or almost B, as the closer I got to B, I started to get some of the digital artifacts mentioned elsewhere here. I was much happier with the mood this key - whatever it turns out to be - conveyed. Should I care that nobody can play along with it? These are not "play-along" discs these musicians are creating.
I grew up learning to play Hawaiian music by playing to records. One of my favorites was "Blue Darling" by Tony Lindsey and Friends. Not one of these tunes was played in standard pitch; some were a little sharp, others a little flat. So I bought a turntable with variable speed control, made a cassette copy of the album one song at a time adjusting the speed along the way to get nearer standard pitch. And I was on my way. Audacity will allow you to do the same.
But there is a larger point here. I realize your goal is to play along. But there seems to be larger criticism of groups who - like Tony Lindsey's - tune to each other than to a tuner. The tuner is a crippling device, and it is a much needed ability as a musician to be able to tune to each other as well as the tuner. The tuner helps you to tune each string to the pitch on the tuner. The tuner, however, does not help you in any way to tune each string to each other. This is sometimes known as "relative pitch." I hear guitarists who swear by their tuner - spent $500 on it, best tuner money can buy - and they have no idea that they are still grossly out of tune. This is because of considerations such as scale length, neck angles, string temperament, and, frankly, stuff I don't understand. Sometimes the open string is tuned perfectly, but because the guitar is not set-up well, the string fretted at the seventh fret is grossly out of tune. Or, more often, two adjacent strings are out of tune with each other.
If you're using a tuner, the next step is to start making chords all over the neck. If you hear a note out of tune in the chord, try adjusting that string while still holding the chord. Once that chord sounds good, try a different chord at another position on the neck. Fix the offending strings again. Eventually, you will have a guitar tuned in such a way that all chords sound good anywhere you play them. Now, resist the temptation to grab the tuner again. Because what you'll find is that some of the strings will not be in tune with the tuner. What's more important? That the tuner says, "Hooray! You pass!" Or that the guitar sounds right?
At the end of the day, I admire these bands that tune to each other and not to the tuner. They usually have well-trained ears and they sound in tune. That's the important thing. Five guys tuned only to their tuners can sound abysmally out of tune.
I grew up singing in choirs. It's a lesson I first learned there. The choir can be singing a five-minute cantata, and they can be slipping a little more out of the original key minute by minute. The important thing is to slip together. A few of us had perfect pitch. But five singers with perfect pitch were not going to be able to bring 75 others back up to where they needed to be. As long as we stayed in tune with each other, most non-musicians were none the wiser. There were no bonus points for me singing at concert pitch. I would have been the one that sounded wrong.
There is a reason why the earliest tuners provided one pitch. It was because guitarists could tune their guitars. Give me an A-pitchfork and leave the rest to me. The guitar will ultimately be in tune - not only with yours, but with itself and each string with each other. I don't care how blistering fast one can play. The ear needs to be as well trained as the hands and voice.
I curse the day these digital tuners were invented. I haven't played in an in-tune band since, and having perfect pitch, it's a painful experience. What's worse are the guys who think mine is the offending instrument - because they tuned to a tuner and didn't see me do same - and keep handing me their tuners. Get the hell away from me with that thing. ;-)
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Join me for the history of Hawaiian music and its musicians at Ho`olohe Hou at www.hoolohehou.org. |
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salmonella
Lokahi
240 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2009 : 10:19:46 AM
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Bill
What an incredibly thoughtful and informative response. thank you for taking the time to write it.
I certainly was not trying to find fault with the pitch anyone chose to play or master their CD in I was just trying to get an idea of where the pitch difference was...ie the guitar, the tuner, the CD, the stereo or my ears. Now I know. I have Audacity and I can at least get close.
Your tuner comments are quite interesting. I find mine helpful to get "close" (my ears are not as well trained as they should be and I was not born with the perfect pitch gene)but I learned some 35 years ago that the strings need to be tuned to each other. I now have a short scale guitar that I bought only for travel when it was neccesary to have one and it has some interesting intonation issues so I tune the low strings close to pitch when open the the high strings when fretted mid scale. It never sounds quite right but better than all tuned with the tuner.
thanks again
Dave |
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Claudia
Lokahi
USA
152 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2009 : 1:27:53 PM
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Bill,
Great post, Bill!
Forgive me, for I have sinned. I might have been one of those band-mates that tune with a tuner, and might have even, egads!, tried to hand YOU one!!! Pardon me while I slink off into a corner and try to train myself to tune my guitar by ear...which is exactly what my guitar teacher has been begging me to do for years.....  Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.
So when I show up to my lesson next time without the ole tuner, Terre will cry tears of joy and I will tell her to thank you! Then I will be sweating because we typically work in three different tunings in one lesson...
Trev, yes, sometimes CD pitch is all over the place. I have a handy little device (independent of the computer) called a Tascam Vocal Trainer and I use it to raise or lower pitch on a CD, slow it down, isolate a difficult passage and loop it endlessly, and kill vocals so I can figure out what the guitar player is doing. I recommend it.
Hope to play with you again soon Bill!
Claudia
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CD vs Reality
