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Ben
Lokahi
USA
122 Posts |
 Posted - 03/22/2010 : 09:33:51 AM
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I find that whenever I HOPO above the fifth fret, I get two notes that sound horrible together. For example, in TP tuning at the 12th fret on the first string, I get the high D, but I also get a (very sharp) D# from between the 11th fret and the nut. Three different guitars, same result.
Anyone have any ideas on how to avoid that? It's driving me crazy!
By the way, I also want to nominate "hopo" as an official entry in the ki ho'alu dictionary. Mark, are you in charge of that?
Maholo in advance.
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Mālama pono
Ben |
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Allen M Cary
Lokahi
USA
158 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2010 : 10:09:48 AM
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IT not the HOPO that causes this, just that with that technique you get to hear two notes on the same string in rapid succession. Chances are that the action is too high, or the compensation on your bridge is not set up right. What is happening is that the string is being streched as you press it down causing it to go sharp. There are several things that youcan try to remedy this. One is to tighten the truss rod slightly. This will but a little back bend into the neck and lower the action slightly in the middle of the scale. One way to check if this is your problem is to get a good digital tuner. Play the open string and then fret it at 12. The note should be the same or very close. I suspect you will find the fretted note to be sharp. If this adjustment is daunting to you, take the guitar to a repair shop and tell the luthier that you are having problems with compensation (this is the lutherie term for the fretted string differing from the open one). He/she should be able to make the adjustments.
Hope this helps,
Aloha,
Allen |
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RWD
`Olu`olu
USA
850 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2010 : 11:30:09 AM
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| I think the only way to fix that is to damp the string. Try to use finger 2 or 3 for the "hopo" and damp with 1 or 2. Bring it down behind the hammer to damp the d#. |
Bob |
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RWD
`Olu`olu
USA
850 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2010 : 12:41:15 PM
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I just got home and tried my own advice...hey, it didn't work so good:)
This will work though--hammer the 12th with a somewhat flatter and angled finger position (I used finger 2). The angle will make your finger cross over to 11 and damp out the D#. |
Bob |
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Allen M Cary
Lokahi
USA
158 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2010 : 5:21:53 PM
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Aloha Ben,
I just reread your post and realize that I was answering the wrong question. Nonetheless I'm not sure the answer isn't the same-- the set up is wrong. I've never heard anything from my guitars that is caused by the back reflection from the fretted note to the nut. If the action were too high, it would allow the sting to ring on both sides, much the way that the harmonics do. I would still look to the truss rod.
Sorry bout the first post.
Aloha
Allen |
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RWD
`Olu`olu
USA
850 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2010 : 5:25:45 PM
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Ben
dont mess with your guitar. try the tequnique |
Bob |
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hikabe
Lokahi
USA
358 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2010 : 9:17:18 PM
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When you press the 12th fret, your finger makes the string touch both the 11th and the 12 metal frets. The string is exactly divided in half from the 12th fret to the bridge. But on the other side of your finger, the string vibrates from the 11th metal fret to the nut. That's why you hear 2 notes. There really is no easy way to eliminate the fretboard side D#(1st string/taropatch). There are some ways, but not worth the effort. Electric guitars or those with pickups don't have this problem as the pickups are on the body side.
The truss rod adjustment won't help and angling your finger towards the fretside is not that successful either. Maybe it's best to avoid hammering the 12th fret altogether. Sorry, the only solution I have is to rip out all the metal frets except the 12th. But then you'd have a dulcimer. |
Stay Tuned... |
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Ben
Lokahi
USA
122 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2010 : 1:26:46 PM
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Thanks for all the input.
Hikabe - You're exactly right about the cause of the problem. I understood that, I just maybe wasn't that clear in my description. My problem was being clever enough - well, actually not being clever enough - to find a solution.
Allen - I have no other problems with the action height on any of my instruments, so I'm not so convinced I should go that route. Anyway, the two main guitars I play don't even have a truss rod that I can adjust.
Haole_Boy - I tried the two finger approach you mentioned before even making this post. I just don't have fine enough control to hammer hard enough to get the 12th fret note with one finger and light enough with the trailing finger to just dampen the nut-side part of the string. I never thought of angling just the one finger. It works; it will just take some practice to make it reliable.
Thanks again for all the ideas. |
Mālama pono
Ben |
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Allen M Cary
Lokahi
USA
158 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2010 : 12:51:37 PM
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Aloha Ben,
It turns out I am full of ****. I went back to my guitars and shur nuff, a HOPO at 12 sounds like ****. I do a lot of HOPO, but almost always a 1/2 to 2 full-note moves, not a long one. There is a song, Makika, by Keola Beamer with a HOPO at 7, which is supposed to evoke the sound of the mosquito. This is an ugly sound, and the HOPO does it justice. I never really thought about it before, but I'm sure that the sound is the composite of the sharp note from the 6th back and the clear note at the 7th.
Aloha,
Allen |
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da_joka
Lokahi
361 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2010 : 04:11:14 AM
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Eh Ben,
I wen run into dis problem too. Wen you play Ho`omalu Slack Key by Sonny Chillingworth, you get HOPO at da 5th, 7th, and 12th frets. I no can make um sound good - all dis time, I tot was me. I jus wen listen to Sonny's recording and even his get da dissonance. Sounds like he jus makes da HOPO as fast as possible so dat da dissonance no sound too bad fo too long.
Shootz! |
If can, can. If no can, no can. |
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Ben
Lokahi
USA
122 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2010 : 11:52:26 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by da_joka
Eh Ben,
I wen run into dis problem too. Wen you play Ho`omalu Slack Key by Sonny Chillingworth, you get HOPO at da 5th, 7th, and 12th frets. I no can make um sound good - all dis time, I tot was me. I jus wen listen to Sonny's recording and even his get da dissonance. Sounds like he jus makes da HOPO as fast as possible so dat da dissonance no sound too bad fo too long.
Shootz!
Yah, same kine ting wit his Liloa's Mele. I wen lissen dat and supprise how fas he HOPO. No mo time fo sound li' my crappy chrai.
Okay, that felt really awkward. No can talk da kine. |
Mālama pono
Ben |
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da_joka
Lokahi
361 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2010 : 12:00:52 PM
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| I guess da nex question is how fo HOPO fast enuf and make um sound good no? |
If can, can. If no can, no can. |
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slkho
`Olu`olu
740 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2010 : 1:19:32 PM
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Action hieght?, I never considered that as the cause...it would have to be quite a doosy to be that bad down by the 12th. Must be an old guitar that hasn't been serviced in awhile possibly? Get a "tune up" on your guitar I suppose.
Do an inside pull-off (IPO) (pull off towards the 6th string)not an outside pull off, down and away off the first string. It should be a cleaner execution, and a better HOPO.
~slkho |
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basilking
Lokahi
124 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2010 : 5:40:48 PM
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| Japanese Shakuhachi [flute] technique wants each note to have its unique timber. Unsure 'zackly how this relates to slackin' but my truss-rod-free/ancient So Cal Music 0-18K will allow a "hopo" [never thought of it this way, just a vocal-imitating "ululation" to me] without undue off-intonation. Bar frets, non-slanted bridge, but was intonated by a now-deceased master within the the saddle's forward-backward limitations. Technique can compensate if luck & desire intersect. |
Edited by - basilking on 03/27/2010 5:42:10 PM |
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Hammer-on, Pull-off technique question
