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Haolenuke
Lokahi
USA
117 Posts |
 Posted - 04/12/2010 : 06:56:12 AM
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Aloha,
I am trying to understand the factors involved in choosing strings for HSG, and I would appreciate your insights.
Konabob selected strings for the entry level Rogue EA-3 solid body lap steel with G6th tuning (oops, not C6th) so that the string tension was in the 28 to 30 pound range. Two plain steel strings and 4 wound strings with round nickel plated steel windings were selected. Apparently the string tension calculation was based upon the string tension formula and unit weight information in the the D'Addario String Tension Catalog Supplement:
http://www.daddariostrings.com/Resources/JDCDAD/images/tension_chart.pdf
What are the tradeoffs between round wound, half round, and flat round strings in a HSG application? How critical is it to get the string tension for each string within a narrow range?
Mark warned that the strings recommended for a solid body lap steel with a 20.5" scale length would pop the bridge off a Weissenborn, but refrained from venturing a string tension recommendation for acoustic HSGs. Is there some rule of thumb for string tension on an acoustic HSGs? Or are there maximum tension values for each individual acoustic HSG?
In Andy Volk's book "Lap Steel Guitar" he states that, "Back in the '50s, Byrd used identically gauged Black Diamond strings for his first 3 strings, with an unwound 4th string and flat wound for the rest. That, along with his unmatched technique, contributed to the blurring of the sound of his string changes." (p. 143) Is this type of setup favored by any current players?
D'Addario is the only string manufacturer that I know of that provides information to enable string tension calculations. My expectation is that variations in the construction of wire wound strings between manufactures would make the D'Addario information inapplicable to other manufactures' strings. Does anyone know whether this expectation is correct or not?
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Edited by - Haolenuke on 04/12/2010 08:59:24 AM |
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slipry1
Ha`aha`a
USA
1511 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2010 : 07:22:29 AM
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Here's what I use for my instruments for the C6 tuning (for 6 sting just leave out the low C and the high G):
(from highest to lowest string)
G - .012
E - .014
C - .018
A - .022
G - .024
E - .030
C - .036
Bb - .040 (A - .042, or if you want to go lower)
This is what Bobby Ingano uses, too. Alan Akaka and others don't have the high G but have a low G or E - .054). Somewhere around I have a copy of Jerry Byrd's string selection I got from no'eau. I'll talk to him, and maybe he'll post it. It's pretty neat, because he selects string gauges so he can move between C, A, B11, and E tunings without changing string gauges.
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keaka |
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Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2010 : 08:11:56 AM
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quote:
Mark warned that the strings recommended for a solid body lap steel with a 20.5" scale length would pop the bridge off a Weissenborn, but refrained from venturing a string tension recommendation for acoustic HSGs.
That information is pretty readily available. The variables would depend on your instrument & tuning choice.
F'rinstance, I keep my Weissenhemer in A6, & I use essentially the same string gauges Slip gave for C6 (.036-.012 top string's an E tho), albeit I use bronze strings for the wound ones.
For the G6 tuning, I used an off the shelf set of light gauge dobro strings... don't recall the gauges. For Taropatch & TaroPatch G6, & D major, yer basic light gauge guitar strings.
Caveat: If I had a real vintage instrument, I'd err on the side of caution and thin down everything.
Check out Brad's Page of Steel for more info. |
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rendesvous1840
Ha`aha`a
USA
1055 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2010 : 11:40:50 AM
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On the Taropatch Home Page, click on links, and then on Steel. There are several sites, including Brads, for Steel Guitar info. Somewhere I recall seeing a list of suggested string gauges for various tunings, it was probably either on Brads page, or the Hawiian Steel Guitar Association's page.
Unko Paul |
"A master banjo player isn't the person who can pick the most notes.It's the person who can touch the most hearts." Patrick Costello |
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Haolenuke
Lokahi
USA
117 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2010 : 12:29:41 PM
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Aloha,
Thank you all for the replies. Brad's Page of Steel has a link to Bobby Lee Quasar's Pedal Steel page with string recommendations for a wide range of tunings:
http://www.b0b.com/infoedu/gauges.htm
The recommended strings are very close to the one's that slipry1 uses for his C6 tuning.
As I am much more adept at pressing the computer keys than the strings, and I have too much time on my hands, I worked up an Excel spreadsheet that calculates the string tension for the various string choices. What interested me most with the results was that the string tensions for the lower pitch strings drop off significantly. The string tension range that the spreadsheet calculated was from 28.16 lbs. for a .015" plain steel E4 string to 19.73 lbs. for a .039" round wound steel Bb2 string. I am assuming that the scale length is 22.5" and that the unit weight of the selected strings is the same value that D'Addario specifies for their strings. I had thought that consistent string tension for all of the strings would be preferable, but that doesn't fit with these string recommendations. Can any of you explain this conundrum?
A little more messing around with Excel yielded the following summary of Bobby Lee Quasar's pedal steel string recommendations:
- Select plain steel strings that provide a string tension of 25 lbf.
- Select wound steel stings that start a 25 lbf. string tension at A3 and drop at the rate of about 1/2 lbf. of string tension per step.
This was incorrect as I was incorrectly assuming a scale length of 22.5" when the correct scale length was 24" - 24 1/4".
Should I assume that all of you steelers use round wound phosphor bronze strings for the acoustic guitars and round wound steel strings for the electrics? Nobody bothers with half round or flat wound strings?
If anyone is interested in the Excel file, just email me. |
Edited by - Haolenuke on 04/17/2010 07:04:44 AM |
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slipry1
Ha`aha`a
USA
1511 Posts |
Posted - 04/14/2010 : 08:35:06 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Haolenuke
Aloha,
Thank you all for the replies. Brad's Page of Steel has a link to Bobby Lee's Pedal Steel page with string recommendations for a wide range of tunings:
http://www.b0b.com/infoedu/gauges.htm
The recommended strings are very close to the one's that slipry1 uses for his C6 tuning.
As I am much more adept at pressing the computer keys than the strings, and I have too much time on my hands, I worked up an Excel spreadsheet that calculates the string tension for the various string choices. What interested me most with the results was that the string tensions for the lower pitch strings drop off significantly. The string tension range that the spreadsheet calculated was from 28.16 lbs. for a .015" plain steel E4 string to 19.73 lbs. for a .039" round wound steel Bb2 string. I am assuming that the scale length is 22.5" and that the unit weight of the selected strings is the same value that D'Addario specifies for their strings. I had thought that consistent string tension for all of the strings would be preferable, but that doesn't fit with these string recommendations. Can any of you explain this conundrum?
A little more messing around with Excel yielded the following summary of Bobby Lee's pedal steel string recommendations:
- Select plain steel strings that provide a string tension of 25 lbf.
- Select wound steel stings that start a 25 lbf. string tension at A3 and drop at the rate of about 1/2 lbf. of string tension per step.
Should I assume that all of you steelers use round wound phosphor bronze strings for the acoustic guitars and round wound steel strings for the electrics? Nobody bothers with half round or flat wound strings?
If anyone is interested in the Excel file, just email me.
1. Brad's Page of Steel is a gold mine of info. I am a loyal HSGA member. If you are really interested in Hawaiian steel guitar, you should join.
2. I use Ernie Ball strings (steel) when I can find them. They have extra windings on the ball end, so they are the best for pedal steel (which I also play). I buy my strings gauged for most of my steels). Mark is right about getting Dobro strings for G tuning, especially if you are using a high G (i.e., Dobro) tuning. My gauges are the result of 35 years of mucking with them. btw - Alan Akaka thinks I should go with thicker gauges. hmmmm........
3. Re string tension: this is an incredible can of worms, and usually doesn't end with a pleasant sound. Back in the 70's, at McCabe's in Santa Monic CA, we decided to get an even tension set of strings on a guitar (if you think that standard gauges of strings are used on a conventional six string, think again!). The result was a pretty suckey sound. There are overtones that are excited on non-played strings that enhance the sound of the instrument. Enuf said! |
keaka |
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slipry1
Ha`aha`a
USA
1511 Posts |
Posted - 04/14/2010 : 08:40:28 AM
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| One more thing. Although phosphor bronze strings are great for regular guitars, they, imho, are overkill for an electric steel or a resonator guitar. Maybe for a Weisenborn. I don't know of any Hawaiian steeler (includes Alan Akaka, Bobby Ingao, Isaac Akuna, Paul Kim, Dereck Mau, Jeff Au Hoy, Greg Sardinha,...) who uses phosphor bronze strings on a steel. I'll verify that when I'm at the steel festival. |
keaka |
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Haolenuke
Lokahi
USA
117 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2010 : 10:39:02 AM
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Aloha slipry1,
Thank you for your reply. Yes, Brad's Page of Steel has a wealth of information, perhaps a bit more than a newbie like me can assimilate readily. I'm not yet sure how far I will take HSG. I have a copy of Nick Manaloff's introductory HSG book from the mid 1930's, in which I was stunned to find tablature in addition to the score. I also have the "Improved" Kamika book and Stacy Philips' first book on HSG. My current goal is to mess around with the old Charles King pieces using the original tuning, but modernity might take hold of me eventually. If I get so I don't think I s**k, I'll join the HSGA.
May I ask about scale lengths? I am assuming that the scale length for the steel guitars that you string up and the pedal steels for which Bob Lee recommends strings are 22.5". Is that correct? I bought one of those little Rogue EA-3s with a scale length of approximately 20.5", so I am expecting that I will need to modify my string choices to yield string tensions close to those that others use for their selected open strings. My original approach was to use Konabob's suggestion of 28 to 30 pounds of tension for all strings, though I may have misunderstood him. Both you and Bob Lee suggest strings that yield less tension and matching the string tensions that you use yields significantly smaller diameter strings. Or do you steelers use the same diameter strings regardless of the scale length?
Do Mark's suggestion of Dobro or light guitar strings for G tuning work for a short scale instrument? I think that both the Dobro and guitar strings are designed for a nominal scale length of 25", and according to the D'Addario string tension formula, string tension is a function of the scale length squared.
Regarding the use of phosphor bronze strings on a steel, Konabob brought to my attention that phosphor bronze strings don't play well with electric pickups, as they are even less magnetic than I am. I don't know technically why phosphor bronze windings are generally preferred for acoustic instruments, but presume that they just sound better.
Have a great day.
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slipry1
Ha`aha`a
USA
1511 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2010 : 08:12:18 AM
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OK. Got out a tape measure. Here's what I have:
Fender Stringmaster Double 8 - 24 1/4"
ShoBud Double 10 pedal steel - 24 1/2"
Carter Double 10 pedal steel - 24/14"
Dobros (6 & 8) - 24 1/4"
Stringmaster Single 8 - 22 1/2" (short scale)
Shot Jackson Jerry Byrd Frypan single 8 - 22 1/2".
Early Fender Cahmpion single 6 - 22 1/2"
So now I know ahy Alan Akaka said I should get heavier gauge strings - I had my frypan and single 8 Stringmaster with me last time I was in HI. I've always used the same gauges on all my steels, starting with my old ShoBud (still in its case) and following recommendations from Scotty's book on E9. The other puzzling thing wrt Dobro strings and a short scale instrument is that the Dobro is a long scale and the Rogue is a short scale instrument. Mark - seems like this takes your advice for slimming down for an old instrument - ??? btw, I bought a package of C6 stings for the old Fender 6, and it's really wimpy. Gauges were much too small, or perhaps for a long scale instrument. Great bucket of worms, eh? |
keaka |
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rendesvous1840
Ha`aha`a
USA
1055 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2010 : 09:52:23 AM
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Shorter scale makes the same pitch at less tension. To get that pitch on a longer scale with the same string gauge you have to tighten the string more,creating a greater tension. So the same gauge on a shorter instrument may seem to be soft or floppy. The same thing is true for soprano, concert and tenor ukulele's. They are tuned to the same pitches, usually, but if you used the same gauge strings they would have lower tension on the soprano, and higher on the bigger(longer scale) concert & tenor. Baritone uke's are tuned lower, so there are more variables in this case. Some travel guitars are tuned higher for the same reason.
Unko Paul |
"A master banjo player isn't the person who can pick the most notes.It's the person who can touch the most hearts." Patrick Costello |
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Haolenuke
Lokahi
USA
117 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2010 : 10:19:24 AM
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Aloha,
Thank you for getting out your tape measure slipry1. You have quite a stable of steels. My assumption that Bobby Lee Quasar's string gauge recommendations were based upon a 22.5" scale length was incorrect. According to Mr. Quasar, his pedal steels have scale lengths of 24" or 24 1/4", and he doesn't vary his string gauges much for varying scale lengths. But Mr. Quasar also referred me to another set of string gauge recommendations that included variations for scale length: http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=181987
When I recalculated the string tension with the correct scale length value the plain steel string tensions ended up in the 28 to 30 pound range with the wire wound string tensions ranging from 26.3 lbs. down to 22.5 lbs. for the C6 tuning. The additional table also roughly implies the string gauge modifications for a 20.5" scale length instrument, if you apply the same modifications used to go from 24" to 22.5" to go from 22.5" to 20.5"/21.0". |
Edited by - Haolenuke on 04/17/2010 07:09:02 AM |
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slipry1
Ha`aha`a
USA
1511 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2010 : 4:03:45 PM
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Unco Paul - You got 'em! Rock gods like thin, slinky strings so they can bend 'em.
Haolenuke - Don' worry so much about tensions. Pick some, jes press, and, if it feels good, go for it! If they are too light, you'll have trouble with intonation. If they are too heavy, you'll break 'em. Part of getting into an instrument, imho, is to fool around and discover what's going on as you experiment. Some of my greatest "aha!" moments on the steel have come about when I have my Saturday afternoon "fool arounds" sitting at the steel, messing around and trying things out. |
keaka |
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Haolenuke
Lokahi
USA
117 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2010 : 07:12:12 AM
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Aloha,
Thank you for all the advice. I finally think I know enough to make a plausible string selection, and if I'm wrong, I'll learn something. |
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How do you select strings for HSGs?
