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kuulei88
Akahai
USA
75 Posts |
 Posted - 05/04/2010 : 06:13:41 AM
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Mr. Wynne,
are you engaging in satire by echoing an earlier discussion regarding judging at Merrie Monarch? are you indeed calling out those who would say one thing yet do another? your kolohe wit is again offering us all food for thought--when we talk the talk, we should be prepared to walk the walk !!!
For the record, the dancers of Nā Lehua Melemele are very fortunate to have a knowledgeable instructor as their foundation.
;-),
amy k.
Also for the record: Congratulations to Mr. Wynne on his recent engagement to the lovely Ms. Cherylann Kamalani Schmidt !!!! |
amy k |
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wcerto
Ahonui
USA
5052 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2010 : 06:58:01 AM
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| You know what? Auntie is not even slightly amused this time. Bill, if you think you have a wit, you are only half correct. |
Me ke aloha
Malama pono,
Wanda |
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hwnmusiclives
`Olu`olu
USA
580 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2010 : 08:43:51 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by wcerto
You know what? Auntie is not even slightly amused this time. Bill, if you think you have a wit, you are only half correct.
Auntie, not everything is about you. Read on...
quote:
Originally posted by kuulei88
are you engaging in satire by echoing an earlier discussion regarding judging at Merrie Monarch? are you indeed calling out those who would say one thing yet do another?
Something like that. But it sounds so academic when you say it. If there is one thing I have learned about this forum, it's that it's not Gulliver's Travels. Satire and Hawaiian culture do not mix. But that won't stop me from trying!
Taropatch.net is an interesting study in group mentality. Something I have noticed here over time is an aversion to its participants to post opinions that may be considered unpopular. I tend to think that this is because strong bonds are forged among forum members and, so, with time, we are hesitant to disagree with other's thoughts and opinions because we fear it will be perceived as an attack on a person rather than an attack on a position. It becomes difficult to separate the two. The longer this occurs - the longer the dissenting opinion is reserved for fear of offending someone or being branded a heretic - the more that there appears to be only one agreed upon opinion - a group opinion. The more loved the forum participant, the less likely we are to disagree with them.
Case in point: A few months ago, a stranger walked among us and had some interesting things to say about Hawaiian music and culture - a conversation which quickly denigrated into unflattering thoughts about the Hawaiian people and - who knows how? - some extremely unpopular thoughts on the cause of World War II. This group - the netizens of taropatch.net - rallied together against the stranger, branded him a [insert word for not very nice person], and drove him clear out of the group. And what did the same group of netizens do the very next day? They started a thread on jokes about "Podagees."
Why should this be at least a little disturbing? Because in many circles this would otherwise be known as a "double standard." The reason it was not considered a double standard here is likely because those participating in a "Podagee" joke thread were all long-standing members of the taropatch.net 'ohana. I can't imagine that I was the only one offended by it all, and yet I said nothing, and nobody else said anything - because we feared that we would be chastized for disagreeing. I believe in ethnographic research this would be known as "insider/outsider theory." What it amounts to for this forum is that the group stops agreeing/disagreeing with opinions and begins agreeing/disagreeing with people regardless of how off-base their opinions may be.
Wanda, you could not possibly know, but I did not come around this forum for more than six months for what members of this forum would like to call a "disagreement" between you and me. It wasn't. I posted an opinion, you disagreed with it, and I got chastized for saying something that might potentially upset you. (The only difference between how I was treated and how the aforementioned stranger was treated is that I was chastized privately via e-mail.) But my post - like almost all of my posts - have nothing to do with you - or with any person for that matter. My posts are intended to make others think in a way that they perhaps may not have thought previously. But because my post follows your post, the group mentality assumes it is an attack on "Wanda" rather than a counterargument to the argument Wanda proposed. And that is so very different.
The interaction between us which changed people's opinion of me concerned YouTube. I wrote that not everything on YouTube was intended to be rebroadcast and that often musicians lose revenue as a result. That was not a reflection on you, Wanda, but on those who put things on YouTube without considering the ramifications. You decided not to post to YouTube any longer, and guess who took all the blame? What I took from this incident is not that dissenting opinions are not welcome but, rather, that opinions which may be offensive to certain members of the taropatch family are not welcome. But then last week Duke posted a link to a YouTube video by Ozzie Kotani, Doug commented that Ozzie's video may be under copyright (and a continued source of revenue), and Duke graciously and unquestioningly removed the link. It seems so simple. But it was so symbolic to me. What if I had made the same comment that Doug made? Same outcome? And what if it were you instead of Duke that had posted the link to the video? Same outcome?
Thank you, Wanda, for letting me briefly recycle your words today. I had to wonder - and still do - if your mana'o coming from me would be accepted as graciously as your mana'o coming from you. Same mana'o; different voice. I don't think I need to tell you how much you are loved by everyone on this forum - and I am no exception. But this unananimous aloha also makes it very difficult for someone like me to "get real" on this forum.
So my post today was a plea to everyone else on taropatch.net who isn't Wanda to look more carefully at the mana'o rather than the name of the person who posted the mana'o. It is a plea for open-mindedness. If you subscribe to insider/outsider theory - or even if you are just a mainland haole who wants to know more and more about Hawaiian things - than you know that it is difficult to learn as the outsider - for a variety of reasons. If it is our shared desire to learn, then, I don't think we should create more and more pockets of "insiders" and "outsiders" within this forum. I think it should be alright to post a dissenting opinion without fear of mass reproach filling one's e-mail inbox. I think it should be OK to write a review of a new Hawaiian music CD that isn't positive and not have virtual eggs thrown at us. (Not every new Hawaiian music CD is good. Not every link to every YouTube video is precious.) These things are not, in fact, sacred. And I, for one, don't think that our kumu want us to go through life accepting everything and questioning nothing.
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Join me for the history of Hawaiian music and its musicians at Ho`olohe Hou at www.hoolohehou.org. |
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hwnmusiclives
`Olu`olu
USA
580 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2010 : 09:08:11 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by wcerto
Bill, if you think you have a wit, you are only half correct.
I did want to separate out this comment from the rest because it is personal.
I know well what you meant by expressing your dismay with this turn of phrase. But it may not have come out as politely as either of us might have liked. "Wit" is a form of intellectual humor, but a "half wit" is not an unfunny person. A "half wit" is a stupid person.
You may have intended to insult me, but even I don't believe that you would have resorted to name-calling. If I'm wrong, please do let me know. I don't think I have yet called anyone on this forum name, and although many may not agree with my opinions, I don't think my opinions are so completely unformed and uninformed as to be considered stupid.
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Join me for the history of Hawaiian music and its musicians at Ho`olohe Hou at www.hoolohehou.org. |
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salmonella
Lokahi
240 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2010 : 09:08:21 AM
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Bill
First, I like sarcasm. I like your posted sarcasm.
Now the bad news.
Sarcasm rarely works well in print. It does not come across easily and it is hard for many people to recognize.
Worse yet, sarcasm is, by definition (I just looked it up in Webster to be sure) designed to be a cutting, offensive personal attack. It is not a kind and thoughtful way to express opposing opinions. It is effective, simply for that reason, but using sarcasm is usually reserved for hurting people. It is usually only funny to those people who can know for sure that it is not directed at them.
Please do continue to post opposing view points. Without them we might as well just play kumbaya all day long (in taropatch of course), but, and I say this from years of bad experience, if you want people here or anywhere else to think about the mana'o and not the voice, I would suggest you not use sarcasm as the voice. I did, and have, and got the same negative response as you. I suspect that anyone else would also.
Just my observation and suggestion.
Dave
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wcerto
Ahonui
USA
5052 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2010 : 09:45:55 AM
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I said the half wit thing on purpose to be mean and to hurt you. It was deliberate.
Because I read your post under a completely different subject and it seemed as though you were making fun of anyone who tried to help the halau win the contest in question. That contest was comething very completely removed from Merrie Monarch. I believed that if you wanted to continue the discussion on differing ways of voting for Merrie Monarch, that perhaps should be the place to post about it instead of making what surely came across as an ugly comment on this thread about the halau. I reacted emotionally without thinking.
I sincerely apologize for my ugly words. One of the things I thought I learned first about Hawaiian music is to consider your words carefully. This is a lesson which I have not learned well. |
Me ke aloha
Malama pono,
Wanda |
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Admin
Pupule
USA
4551 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2010 : 10:49:59 AM
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Interesting turn in conversation here. Indeed the judging by "youtube views" for this contest was American Idolesque. Therefore, it was not necessarily the quality of the content that guaranteed a win. I was hopeful that the judges' vote would circumvent the popularily (frequency of voting) aspect. Nevertheless, I am happy to hear that NLM won third, and that they are happy to have won something.
I didn't catch the satire at first read but even so I was surprised by the reaction here.
An online forum is not too different from a small town community. Are there "group think", "herd mentality", and double standards? Sure, I do not deny that. We cannot control the best or worst of human nature. I can only hope that Taropatch.net has the benefit of having more diversity, at least geographically, if not anything else. I personally welcome differing opinions. I couldn't care less if I agree or disagree. I encourage and want to hear two sides to a story (even three, four, etc.), definitely not just one. One thing important to me is that forum members deal with one another respectfully.
In response to driving out the member who expressed the extremely unpopular thoughts on the cause of World War II, my decision to lock the user account was not based solely on the expression of an unpopular opinion. While that was a factor (I do not think that the WWII subject was relevent to a Hawaiian music forum), there were other points upon which I based my decision. None of which I feel is appropriate to list here.
quote:
I think it should be alright to post a dissenting opinion without fear of mass reproach filling one's e-mail inbox. I think it should be OK to write a review of a new Hawaiian music CD that isn't positive and not have virtual eggs thrown at us. (Not every new Hawaiian music CD is good. Not every link to every YouTube video is precious.) These things are not, in fact, sacred. And I, for one, don't think that our kumu want us to go through life accepting everything and questioning nothing.
That all sounds fine to me. How do we encourage that?
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wcerto
Ahonui
USA
5052 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2010 : 12:33:23 PM
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I wonder if that is why I see younger people posting on Facebook with things like "lol". Sometimes folks put hehe or haha when they mean something to be taken lightly and not to be taken for face value. It is VERY difficult to see the twinkle in your eye or a kolohe grin when writing a post. So when it is read, it may more than likely be taken at simple face value -- it is read and understood based on the words on the page.
Perhaps we need a Taro Patch code word for "joking" or "take this lightly" or "I'm being kolohe now."
Once again, please let me say that I am truly sorry for my quickness to jump to conclusions and to read something into a post that was made without malice aforethought. |
Me ke aloha
Malama pono,
Wanda |
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hwnmusiclives
`Olu`olu
USA
580 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2010 : 04:15:08 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by wcerto
It is VERY difficult to see the twinkle in your eye or a kolohe grin when writing a post. So when it is read, it may more than likely be taken at simple face value -- it is read and understood based on the words on the page.
Absolutely, yes. But I don't think there is an emoticon or a code word for how I am feeling sometimes - or most of the time - when it comes to the gravity with which we approach Hawaiian music and culture.
Perhaps I should just go on record now by stating that I have serious things to say, but I have never said anything seriously. 
quote:
Once again, please let me say that I am truly sorry for my quickness to jump to conclusions and to read something into a post that was made without malice aforethought.
Wanda, there is no apology necessary. I'm sorry that you got caught up in my trying to make a point.
I think that we are all so fond of trying to find kaona in mele that we have confused ourselves into trying to find kaona in everything. Auntie Alice Namakelua would tell us that sometimes a honey bee is just a honey bee. (For years I tried to make something more lascivious out of that, but I ultimately couldn't.) Except, perhaps, in politics, it is entirely possible to make a point without attacking a person. As we saw in this thread, if Auntie Wanda thinks she deserves an apology, she will make it known. The important thing is to know that when presenting a point of view on this forum, it is entirely possible to disagree with Wanda's point of view and still be pro-Wanda.
The overarching message I was trying to convey is that... If this group is predicated on aloha, then we can't value one member over another. I went into self-imposed exile from the forum for six months because forum members chose to fight Wanda's battles for her. They did so privately so that the larger forum 'ohana could not weigh in. They made me feel horrible about myself. But, worse, they showed that some members of the forum are valued over others. "Don't do anything to make Wanda go away. But if you leave, Bill, no great loss." I began to feel as if at some point people became more important than issues here because anyone who had read my thoughts on YouTube critically would see that they had absolutely nothing to do with Wanda. If I had one wish, it would be that we would all read more carefully without reading into what's there on the page. Those are two very different things.
So, too, this thread was not really about Wanda. It was about whether or not Wanda had become more important than the cause we come together here to preserve.
quote:
Originally posted by Admin
That all sounds fine to me. How do we encourage that?
To Andy's question about what methods, techniques, or protocols we adopt to make taropatch.net a safe place to voice a dissenting opinion or negative review... I honestly don't know. But I have some ideas about why it will not be easy to achieve - maybe impossible. If I posted a review on brucespringsteen.net that I think the new album by The Boss stinks, I will only get lambasted by members of that forum. Bruce will never know what I think of his album. But despite the geographic diversity of taropatch.net membership that Andy cites, we still revolve like stars around Planet Hawai'i. Six degrees of separation doesn't apply here. One degree of separation is the norm. So if I post that I don't like Na Palapalai's new CD*, in about 17 minutes I am going to have something on my Facebook wall from Kehau that says, "Honey, what the hell is your problem?" We know the artists and kumu, and in some cases we are really good personal friends with the artists and kumu. So in order to speak honestly about music and musicians, we risk losing good friends.
We learn from these kumu and musicians, and we value their input and advice, and we value their friendship. So we say nothing that could potentially isolate us from them or change their opinion of us.
I cannot believe the power of the internet. I posted about my engagement to Facebook, and in less than 45 seconds my fiancée's phone rang. It was her sister-in-law. "The family is always the last to know," she says. You see... Her brother and sister-in-law aren't even ON Facebook. But mutual friends were. And like wildfire the news spread from the internet to the <gasp> real world.
Because of this, I have no suggestions for making this a safe haven for free speech about anything and everything Hawaiian. I know that's how Andy intended it when he created it. But go back through the forum's lengthy archives and find one negative CD review. I don't think one exists.
It is also somewhat problematic that the forum membership consists of everyone from beginners to ethnomusicologists. So we know that no matter how honest and well-researched we believe our mana'o to be as haumana, we might get beaten over the head by someone more knowledgeable than us. In a public forum, that can be pretty embarassing. I don't mind being embarassed for the sake of learning something I didn't know before. But a lot of people do. So I think some bravery is required on the part of those who are holding back certain thoughts and opinions, and some delicacy may be required of the experts we rely on to share important information without making us feel quite so badly about ourselves.
To paraphrase a popular ‘ōlelo no‘eau (which I was trying to sort out the meaning of at way too early an hour this morning)...
‘A‘a i ka ‘olelo**, waiho ka hilahila i ka hale.
I am still trying to find an ‘ōlelo no‘eau for "live and let live."
* Please note that the author loves Na Palapalai's new CD.
** The real ‘ōlelo no‘eau says hula - not ‘olelo.
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Join me for the history of Hawaiian music and its musicians at Ho`olohe Hou at www.hoolohehou.org. |
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salmonella
Lokahi
240 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2010 : 05:38:22 AM
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Bill
please check out this thread...
http://www.taropatch.net/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8902&whichpage=1
it is a fine example of several things...
- a set of not so positive opinions on a new CD or at least part of one.
- a number of opinions that directly disagree with other members of TP (including Wanda who started the thread
- and a bunch of nice replies indicating how wonderful it is when people can express their opinions openly and honestly in this forum.
So, I think, what you are looking for is both wonderful and possible. It takes some work on the part of everyone who posts and, yes, it takes some courage, restraint, respect etc. But when it works well it is worth it.
I know of several people who have either left TP in the last couple years or seriously reduced their posts because of similar questions to the ones you are asking. Please keep it up. Please stay around. Please share with us your knowledge.
Dave
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markwitz
`Olu`olu
USA
841 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2010 : 07:19:24 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by salmonella
Bill
please check out this thread...
http://www.taropatch.net/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8902&whichpage=1
it is a fine example of several things...
- a set of not so positive opinions on a new CD or at least part of one.
- a number of opinions that directly disagree with other members of TP (including Wanda who started the thread
- and a bunch of nice replies indicating how wonderful it is when people can express their opinions openly and honestly in this forum.
So, I think, what you are looking for is both wonderful and possible. It takes some work on the part of everyone who posts and, yes, it takes some courage, restraint, respect etc. But when it works well it is worth it.
I know of several people who have either left TP in the last couple years or seriously reduced their posts because of similar questions to the ones you are asking. Please keep it up. Please stay around. Please share with us your knowledge.
Dave
Bill,
This has been a very thought provoking and interesting conversation. At the risk of being accused of "unanimous aloha", I agree with everything written by Dave. Especially the last three sentences of his post above. And I think he has given us a great example to follow in being able to express our opinions in a civil and thoughtful way. |
"The music of the Hawaiians, the most fascinating in the world, is still in my ears and
haunts me sleeping and waking."
Mark Twain |
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wcerto
Ahonui
USA
5052 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2010 : 12:26:10 PM
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Kala mai. I don't want you folks to think I said something ugly and mean and then went skipping merrily down the lane. I was in the hospital again. Sheesh. This has been one helluva week already. And the majority of this hospitalization was due to a boo-boo in lab results, so the one part of it that did require medical attention could have been handled on an out-patient basis, but coupled with bogus numbers on various blood chemistry levels, ended up with me availing myself of the fine culinary talents of the kitchen at Marymount Hospital once again.
Believe it or not, even Unko Paul disagrees with me from time to time. And I don't even yell at him for it. We can all disagree with each other as long as we are not mean and rude about it. I think Dave pointed that out well in the Raiatea/Keola post he cited. I've even said before that I do not like most of Keola's instrumental stuff or the stuff with Cyril and/or Led and Bob Brozman, because I think Brozman's music is too "busy". When I do reviews, it is simply because I as an ordinary consumer like the music. If I didn't like something, I wouldn't have bought it in the first place. I do not have a job that requires me to listen to stuff I do not like and write reviews on it. I am never a disinterested third party.
Bill - I think Dave pointed out just the thread I was going to cite as an example. We can disagree with each other and have open discourse. All it takes is people who are willing to do it. |
Me ke aloha
Malama pono,
Wanda |
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PearlCityBoy
Lokahi
USA
432 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2010 : 06:58:00 AM
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Wow, this thread has turned into an interesting discussion. Bill you make a lot of good points and it’s unfortunate that you received some unsolicited “love letters” for stating an honest opinion. I may not always agree with your posts, but I appreciate the thought, care, and time that you put into writing them, particularly when they are not the popular opinion. Your posts are thought provoking, and I’ve always found them to be respectful.
I agree there’s often group mentality and “insider-outsider” dynamics here on the ‘Patch, and yes you may get chastised for stating an unpopular opinion or challenging a so-called “authority,” often with emotions running high. I’ve been involved in a few of these heated discussions, which adds to the excitement of challenging the conventional wisdom and urban myths. Was it worth it? Absolutely. I learned a lot from the process and even had some lengthy discussions with a few of my kumus offline, which actually got them to see other sides to an issue. I also know that some of these Taropatch “debates” get discussed by the many lurkers out there—many of whom have the same questions but are afraid to ask them for fear of being slammed.
Regarding how to make Taropatch a safer place for open discussion without repercussion (hey that rhymes!), I believe we need much more active and open participation by the diversity of Taropatch members vs. only having a few members doing most of the talking. It goes without saying that being respectful and open minded, and having a sense of aloha are important for making the Taropatch community a safe place where people want to participate.
Here are some rough statistics based on a quick analysis of our members and their posts. Data is based on numbers from last Friday, reflecting 2,191 members. Numbers may be rounded or estimated/averaged (I didn’t have the time to add up every single data point) but are directional in illustrating the 80/20 statistical rule can be thrown out the window. Here’s an example of my estimating/averaging: 328 members had between 2-5 posts, and so I averaged it to 3.5 posts and multiplied that by the 328 members to get to 1,148 estimated posts for that group. Disclaimer—I am not a statistician but I play one on T.V.:
(a) 1% of members accounted for 40% of the posts.
(b) 5% of members accounted for 83% of the posts.
(c) 5 individuals accounted for 18% of the posts.
(d) 88% of members accounted for only 6% of the posts.
(e) 77% (over ¾) of members accounted for only 2% of the posts.
(f) 62% of members have posted only once or have never posted.
(g) 49% (almost 1/2) of members have never posted.
If my math is directionally right, there’s mostly a small group of us talking to ourselves. So, to paraphrase a line from the wonderful Lolo Telethon (about 2:15 into the clip) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rNI-cM_OGc , “How many of you Taropatchers here are here?”
Aloha,
Doug
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wcerto
Ahonui
USA
5052 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2010 : 07:37:44 AM
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This is an important turn of thte discussion. Perhaps it would be better served if somehow it could be addressed with an appropriate subject line and posted under a separate thread. Many people who might want to become involved in the discussion may not even read this based on the subject that this discussion is under right now.
Andy - is there some administrative magic you can do? |
Me ke aloha
Malama pono,
Wanda |
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noeau
Ha`aha`a
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2010 : 09:10:53 AM
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Wow you guys really talk to much awreddy. lets play music! Me I don't dig contests too much. It detracts from the artistry in the firstplace. Of course there are pluses and minuses related to a person's or a group preparation for said contests. but to rely on multiple votes from unschooled individuals places the contest on the level of popularity and takes away from the true skill of the contestants involved. But what do I know/ I was a fan of Tiny Tim so you know who I might vote for.
Another unpopular stance I hold is the fact that I abhor hula contests. I prefer just plain festivals like the Prince Lot for example. people can go home from things with their own private idea of who was the best of the day. No need give trophy for something designed to make people happy. But you guyses right, some time we get too involved with our beliefs and values that we get mad at others. I not innocent in that matter. But I never called any body stupid in public. And I don't do it privately either. I do disagree when somebody spouts an opinion based on what they learned in a book and then try ack like they onesome kine a kahuna about the subject. When I said you gotta live in the situation and get told by the oral historians what is not found in books and go out and make mistakes and somebody tell you what you did right or wrong then you can say Oh wow I no tink das right.
There may be a way to express one's heartfelt thoughts without preaching but it is difficult to do it without offending someone somewhere sometime so we need one beeg salt shaker to take all those things with the proverbial grain of.Das why lately I no post as much because I eating plenny salt now a days. But this topic, as most of the interesting ones do, is so far from the original thought that maybe we should jus go our merry wasy. After da contest is pau and the prize is awarded and we can await the next flaming topic to appear on the horizon.
Aloha ya'll and keep sending in those letters and don't forget to co-llect those boxtops so you can claim your decoder ring. |
No'eau, eia au he mea pa'ani wale nō. |
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NYC Hula - you can help by watching a video!
