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hapakid
Luna Ho`omalu
USA
1533 Posts |
 Posted - 09/02/2010 : 6:26:05 PM
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Another enjoyable and very readable book: "Tales from the Night Rainbow", a family history filled with fascinating stories, especially about Molokai. It's available on Amazon.
Jesse |
Edited by - hapakid on 09/02/2010 6:28:34 PM |
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Retro
Ahonui
USA
2368 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2010 : 7:09:09 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Volcano
Retro, That's a bit esoteric for me. Do you know any of these "knowledge keepers" for ancient Hawaiian history? I would very much like to meet one.
Sorry, didn't mean to come across all woo-eee-woo-eee new-agey like.
If you get to meet one and they share something with you, you're a lucky soul indeed.
quote:
On a purely esoteric level, I do feel the natural power of the Big Island.
There you go. And though I've not yet met you, I know from your postings that there is much you feel through the music we love.
It's just not for any of us here to decide what qualifies as someone else's "history" and what doesn't, because we all come in with different standards.
"Must reads," as Wanda asks for? Everything and anything on the topic; read what catches your interest, read the perspectives that you are in disagreement with. Read everything that's been mentioned in this thread. Absorb it all, question much of it, learn another p.o.v. or several - they all have degrees of accuracy and error.
None of that will substitute for exposure to the people you are reading about, and you can't make them tell you a damn thing. To borrow a quote from Al: "...go to Hawai`i and immerse yourself in the life there. Try to understand the changes..." and know that you CAN'T understand the changes if you didn't live generations of them. But you must try anyway, because you won't learn anything otherwise. |
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noeau
Ha`aha`a
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2010 : 9:30:58 PM
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Larry when you are ready to learn a teacher will appear. In the meantime, go UH-Hilo check out the language teachers there. Kalena Silva and Keola Donaghy or Larry Kimura. Iʻm sure they can point out kumu kula who are in Hawaiian Studies that would be helpful to you. They all have learned from our elders about their heritage and culture. Many Hula teachers are probably available just look around. If you are lucky they may help you in your quest if that is what you want.
There is information about migration and yes it might be theory but very accurate and studied theory for the most part. My first wife had an ancestor who brought the four gods to Hawaiʻi and her story about her family is interesting but i cannot just name her nonchalantly to anyone in this thread. also,if I remember right the scope of Shoal of Time was stated in the beginning that it would not cover ancient knowledge or chants and so forth. Gavan Daws new his limits as an historian of a scholarly culture that did not encompass knowledge that was huna and therefore kapu. |
No'eau, eia au he mea pa'ani wale nō. |
Edited by - noeau on 09/02/2010 9:32:03 PM |
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wcerto
Ahonui
USA
5052 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2010 : 01:23:43 AM
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That is why I really cherish Michener's book. I know some of you may poo-poo his book since it is fiction and meant to be an entertaining read. But that book begins with how the islands were made. It gave good information on the geology of the area and how the volcanoes brought the islands to life. It offers conjecture on how the islands were populated. Once again, conjecture. But if I believe the esteemed educators who told me how meticulously Michener and his research staff worked to find out facts, then I think there has to be some truth in what he writes.
History is usually written by the conquerors, though.
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Me ke aloha
Malama pono,
Wanda |
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Volcano
Akahai
USA
89 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2010 : 03:01:07 AM
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Noeau - Thank you for the post. You are right on. My original post was sort of in defense of Shoal of Time. It only purported to be what it is, a history since Captain Cook. I do find this history fascinating on many levels. Hawaiian culture will never be mine but I am more than just interested to know all I can about my "home." I've lived many places but never felt the connection I do to the Big Island. I've never felt anything even remotely close on the other Islands of Hawaii.
But as I'm not really contributing anything more to the original topic, I'll let it go at this - The volcano was there long before any man and will be there long after. |
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Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2010 : 08:46:48 AM
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Interesting discussion. And many thanks for keeping it civil--that is what I love about this forum.
OK, I'm going to add my endorsement of all of the books Al mentioned. I'm slowly working my way through the Fornander Collection, too.
Ditto all the books everyone else has mentioned---or at least the ones I have read.
Couple more that I've enjoyed. I think many of these are out of print now but findable.
Volcano, by Garret Hongo. His family owned Hongos Store in, ummm, Volcano. Beautifully written story of small town life.
Letters from Hawaii--Mark Twain. OK, he's a bastard... but he's a very funny bastard, and he genuinely loved the islands.
Paniolo -- Joseph Brennon. Yep, it's about the paniolo.
Born in Paradise--Armine von Tempski. A memoir of her life growing up on the Haleakala Ranch in the early 20th Century. Wonderful. I recently found her sequel, Aloha. Haven't read it yet.
The Fatal Impact--Alan Moorehead. The subtitle, "An Account of the Invasion of the South Pacific 1767-1840," pretty well sums it up.
Islands of History, a fascinating book by the controversial anthropologist Marshall Sahlins on the same subject. Well worth reading, if only to piss off yer old history professor.
This quote from Wikipedia might pique your interest:
quote:
In the late 1990s Sahlins became embroiled in a heated debate with Gananath Obeyesekere over the details of Captain James Cook's death in the Hawaiian Islands in 1779. At the heart of the debate was how to understand the rationality of indigenous people. Obeyesekere insisted that indigenous people thought in essentially the same way as Westerners and was concerned that any argument otherwise would paint them as 'irrational' and 'uncivilized'. Sahlins, on the other hand, was critical of Western thought and argued that indigenous cultures were distinct from those of the West.
For the record: I walked out of the PhD program at the University of Utah in 1974 over that very issue.
While I'm on the subject of new ways to look at history, by all means read Guns, Germs and Steel by Jared Diamond. It will change the way you think. Some interesting initial chapters of the similarities and differences among Polynesian societies based on local resources. When you finish that, read Collapse.
OK, since I'm talking about anthropology, Feathered Gods and Fishhooks: An Introduction to Hawaiian Archeology and Prehistory by Patrick Vinton Kirch ought to keep yer brian stimulated for those long winter nights coming up. Bet you didn't know that Nihoa and Necker Islands once had people living on 'em. And they may not have been Hawaiians...
Enough books. If you want to learn from the culture, you have to listen. I've been fortunate enough to have met people--like Aunty Nona and Brother Matt and Kapono‘ai and Aunty Ku‘ulei....and many more, who shared their stories.
May you also be so blessed.
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Volcano
Akahai
USA
89 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2010 : 10:32:53 AM
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Good recommendations. Thanks. I wasn't aware of the book about Volcano but I'll be getting it. My neighbor across the street at the end of Haunani Rd is Kazu, who was postmaster of Volcano PO for about 35 years. His family came to Volcano Village when he was eight years old and he lived on the same farm until very recently when he moved to Hilo for health reasons. I'm often outside working on my property and whenever Kazu is around, he stops to chat. We have also taken walks together on several occasions. Through him I have gotten a first-hand account of village history from the very beginning. What a lovely place to be.
If anyone were interested, I would be more than happy to put a "nutshell" history of how Volcano Village started in this topic. |
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thumbstruck
Ahonui
USA
2168 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2010 : 11:34:14 AM
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Each individual human has their own perspective governed by family (nature and nurture), language, culture, exposure to various technonlogies, etc. Even 2 kids from the same family can have different memories of the same event, age and location playing a part. Thus, no 2 people can be on the exact same page at a given time. (I've noticed that the only time folks can really pay attention in a group is during a raffle.) It is only with careful listening and discipline that we can even play music together (we take that for granted, at times, but it is still miraculous). Oral histories have been depended on by most cultures throughout most of history. It is only in the last 4 or 5 centuries that even us haoles have had the luxury of having things "in black and white". The Norse word "saga" is a cognate of "say". Most of human history is the story of trying to get enough to eat, have shelter, and enjoy family and friends. If security is obtained, music and art result.
BTW, a while back in the 'patch was a link to an articla dealing with the genetic links between some Big Island families (not all) and the people from the area of the Queen Charlottes Islands ("Haida G'wai" in Haida-Klingit). Again, reinforcing the surety of the cousinhood of humanity. |
Edited by - thumbstruck on 09/03/2010 11:35:49 AM |
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Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2010 : 1:59:09 PM
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quote:
For the record: I walked out of the PhD program at the University of Utah in 1974 over that very issue.
I should clarify that my position was/is that there are fundamental differences in the way people from different cultures view the world. Didn't sit well with the powers that be. But then, few things I did back then sat well in Utah. 
quote:
BTW, a while back in the 'patch was a link to an articla dealing with the genetic links between some Big Island families (not all) and the people from the area of the Queen Charlottes Islands ("Haida G'wai" in Haida-Klingit).
Never saw that. I did have a wonderful conversation with a woman in Seattle a couple years back about direct cultural connection between her ancestors and the Maori -- yes, the New Zealand kind--involving a particular type of weaving technology. Now that's one long voyage!
http://www.vcn.bc.ca/~celtic3/t-intro.htm
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Larry Goldstein
Lokahi
267 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2010 : 08:51:44 AM
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quote:
BTW, a while back in the 'patch was a link to an articla dealing with the genetic links between some Big Island families (not all) and the people from the area of the Queen Charlottes Islands ("Haida G'wai" in Haida-Klingit).
Here's the link again to the "Canadian Connection."
Really interesting information.
http://www.users.on.net/~mkfenn/page3.htm
Larry
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thumbstruck
Ahonui
USA
2168 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2010 : 10:20:16 AM
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| Thanks, Larry. It's good to remember how quickly history can be lost, especially when a family or population changes language. |
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Bau
Lokahi
USA
226 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2010 : 02:40:25 AM
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fantastic thread! I epecialy enjoyed the article on the Hawai'ian ancestory , and surprised about Canada! Also the reference to the Picts of Scottland.
all of which ties into some ancestry of my own I've been looking into over the past few years. too cool.
It seems Hawai'i has always been a sort of 'melting pot' of peoples and cultures. |
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Reading List for those new to Hawaiian Culture
