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alika207
Ha`aha`a
USA
1260 Posts |
 Posted - 09/02/2010 : 11:30:49 AM
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Aloha!
I just came from my first vocal diction class, and although we are not required to sing in Hawaiian, I love speaking and singing in it nonetheless and therefore wanted to throw this question out there.
As lots of you probably know already, I am a huge music and foreign language lover, and over the years I've been enrolled in numerous choirs and have been classically trained. Because I'm very picky about how to pronounce things when you speak vs. when you sing, I wanted to know if you think "mai" should be sung like "maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaai" (similar to the Hawaiian word "mae" which has a completely different meaning) or "maiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii" (the way you would speak it)? Does it sometimes depend on the song or the style of the song? Is it different when you sing a traditional song by yourself or during an informal kanikapila than it is when you sing a Hawaiian song arranged for a choir?
I would love your opinions on this.
This would also apply to other dyphthongs where the i vowel is held slightly longer like "kai."
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He kehau ho'oma'ema'e ke aloha.
'Alika / Polinahe |
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GUke
Lokahi
188 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2010 : 06:28:15 AM
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'Alika,
This is a good question. As a performer with respect to the people and their culture, I try to sing using the correct pronunciation. On several occasions I have heard a mele and when I see the lyrics I note that there are words that have been sung (to my ear) as one syllable or two syllables. "Mai" which you point out is one, and another is "lei".
I have heard the argument that every syllable should be pronounced. Another performer I know said when his group did this under the direction of their kumu, the mele did not fit the music. On another mele I noted that the artist added words to fit the music. And in one mele I am rehearsing in the ha'ina verse the "o" before a proper noun is omitted yet the translation is exactly the same.
I have heard the arguement that in singing one uses "artistic license" again to make the music fit. And the argument that you sing (pronounce) the words as the composer of the mele does. (Easy to do this with current artist who have recordings, but not so easy with mele composed before recording devices were available.)
To address your post in singing "mai" I have heard it in recordings both ways as you point out. I feel the music strongly influences the pronunciation for instance is "mai"at the end of a musical phrase or in the middle. If at the end of the musical phrase, does the music have one note being held for more than one beat, or does the music have two notes that are they ascending or descending. When I perform my concern is that "mai" does not sound like "ma'i". |
Genaro
Should I? Itʻs only $, and where Iʻm going itʻll burn or melt. |
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mike2jb
Lokahi
USA
213 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2010 : 10:22:50 AM
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Genaro, I and others who've heard you perform are consistently impressed with your respect for the language and diction, in addition to your beautiful voice. As someone who's much more of a listener than a singer, I agree with your observation that "mai" is pronounced as one syllable or two in different songs and that, in any event, it never has an `okina in the middle.
Alika, my impression is that singers from decades further back tend to separate diphthongs in this word and in general, and that more contemporary singers tend to pronounce them as one syllable, but that it varies with the meter of the song. I just leafed through my crumbling 1923 copy of Charles King's "Hawaiian Melodies" in which individual syllables are always distinctly marked for each word (whether Hawaiian or English).
"Mai" in this particular songbook is most commonly rendered as a single syllable (one note), whether when beginning a phrase ("Mai po- i- na `o- e `ia- u"), mid-sentence ("Hi- ki mai la no ho- i `o- e"), or as part of a larger word ("Mai- ka- `i Wa- i- pi- `o a- lo- lu- a na pa- li"). But it's frequently two syllables mid-sentence ("Ka le-le ma- i a ke ao na- u- lu"; "Ha- i- na i- a ma- i a- na ka pu- a- na").
Similar common words (lei, wai) are also treated both ways, depending on the song. Note that in the example above the title of the song "Maika`i Waipi`o" contains a one-syllable diphthong in "Maika`i" (the word is to be sung in three notes) followed by a separated one "Waipi`o" (the word is to be sung in four notes).
King tends to prefer separation of diphthongs in some places where most contemporary singers do not separate them. For example, in the song "Na Moku `Eha", "Maui" is a 3-syllable word. "Hawai`i" and "Kaua`i" are four syllables each.
Don't know if this adds anything to the discussion, but it's a "blast from the past". |
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alika207
Ha`aha`a
USA
1260 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2010 : 05:23:39 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by mike2jb
Genaro, I and others who've heard you perform are consistently impressed with your respect for the language and diction, in addition to your beautiful voice
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Mahalo nui! :) Where have you heard me? Youtube?
If a word with a dyphthong is to be sung on more than one note, I do put the second vowel on the last note, like in "Lana'i He Manu Kikaha" when I sang "he le-i wehi 'oe." But if the word is to be sung on one note, especially a held one, I'm not really sure how to sing it. I want to pronounce it right, of course, but if the song is to be sung classically, "maiiiiiiiiiiii" might sound absolutely rancid to the ear of the classically-trained listener. |
He kehau ho'oma'ema'e ke aloha.
'Alika / Polinahe |
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mike2jb
Lokahi
USA
213 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2010 : 06:25:59 AM
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Sorry, Alika-- I was addressing Genaro (GUke) with the singing comment. He and I live in the same city. I've heard him at kanikapilas and at our local Aloha Festival.
I did not know you had videos up on YouTube. Are they also under "alika207"? I want to hear.
As for singing "mai" on a single note, I'm not sure I can help, not being a singer myself. Perhaps Genaro will check back in for you. The examples I gave from King's songbook, as well as most instances I can think of in older songs I've heard, place this word on a short (8th or quarter) note, so you're not drawing it out like you are in the question you asked. For longer single notes, I do not know a definitive answer to your question.
However, I think I recall you are a Keali`i Reichel fan. Have a listen to "He Lei No Kamaile". By chance, this is a song that Genaro sings beautifully.
Listen to how Keali`i treats "mai" when it's a short syllable of a longer word ("maile", "Kamaile"), how he sings it when it's two syllables on two notes ("E lei `ia mai ..."), and when a single syllable on one note ("I hipu`u `ia Hi`ilei `ia mai").
Then listen to "E O Mai" and hear the word held for an entire measure at the end of each verse-- to my ear, this singer holds the "a" far longer than the "i" that follows.
Sorry not to be more help.
- Mike |
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hwnmusiclives
`Olu`olu
USA
580 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2010 : 03:25:39 AM
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Well, for starters, the one thing you should never do is pronounce an 'okina where there isn't one. If you listen to certain recordings by groups not trained in the language (and with nobody trained in the language looking over their shoulder), "ha'ina ia mai" oddly comes out as "haina ia ma'i." Which is pretty funny, and very sad at the same time.
When my ear was not nearly as good as it is now, I could not hear this nuance. Then one evening 20 years ago I telephoned Tony C. and he wasn't home. His mother, Emma, asked who I was and what I wanted. (Emma Ako is Tony and Noland's mom, Elaine Ako Spencer's sister, and Bruce Spencer's auntie.) When I told her what I was going to ask Tony, she proceeded to give me what was up to that point my first and only Hawaiian language lesson. She cited certain recordings and said, "Hear that? Don't do that." There was (and continues to be) one popular group in Hawai'i that sings "ha'ina ia ma'i" as if it were an affliction. Does nobody have the heart to help these guys out?
Although diphthongs exist in many languages, they are not all created equal. Even within a language there are different types of diphthongs - some that have the emphasis on the first vowel in the pair, some that have emphasis on the second vowel in the pair, and some that are given even emphasis, among numerous other types. I was taught a Hawaiian language rule that I have emblazoned on my heart: "Every vowel gets its day in the sun." Not every diphthong. Every vowel. So whether you are speaking or singing "mai," there should be a distinct "a" and a distinct "i." Otherwise how would we distinguish "mai" from "mae" or "oi" from "oe?" (I was drilled in this by none other than Keao Costa the night before one of the falsetto contests. I was singing "Kawaihae Hula" for the contest. Needless to say, I was saying the second syllable and the third syllable pretty much exactly the same until help arrived. Keao told me to sing him the song, and he didn't let me get past the first strophe. He said, "You can't win if you can't say the title of your own song right.")
There is a corollary to this rule that I only recently learned: "If a vowel isn't a diphthong, don't make it one." This is another nuance that I never picked up on through mere listening. English speakers tend to make diphthongs out of single vowels. Say "no" to yourself out loud. Now say it really slowly. If your lips start move forward and upward as you finish the "o" in "no," you are probably saying something more like, "nooooooewwww." This is equally problematic in Hawaiian. Because you might think you are saying "no," but if you say it like you are speaking English, it may come out "nou." I am so acutely aware of this now that I can barely sing a note. (I have to think of Homer Simpson when I sing Hawaiian now. I think of "no" in Hawaiian as having the same "o" as in "D'oh!")
I don't think that artistic license extends to pronunciation. Even though we sing syllables - not words - the listener has to be able to put the syllables back together to make words. Just because a diphthong falls on one beat instead of two should not imply that the listener doesn't get the full benefit of hearing both vowels distinctly.
'Alika, this argument should appeal to you because you have begun speaking the language and continue to teach yourself the language. With that in mind, always remember that you are singing language, and when you break it up and put it back together, just like in math, it still has to add up.
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Join me for the history of Hawaiian music and its musicians at Ho`olohe Hou at www.hoolohehou.org. |
Edited by - hwnmusiclives on 09/07/2010 04:05:57 AM |
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alika207
Ha`aha`a
USA
1260 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2010 : 09:14:40 AM
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| Good point about not making a vowel a dyphthong if it isn't. If I'd never had any choir experience or voice lessons with emphasis on classical and opera, I would have never learned that and therefore would have likely pronounced not only Hawaiian but also Spanish like an American person attempting to speak them. Studying the voice and learning foreign languages can go hand in hand, i think. And I love doing both. |
He kehau ho'oma'ema'e ke aloha.
'Alika / Polinahe |
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alika207
Ha`aha`a
USA
1260 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2010 : 03:17:16 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by mike2jb
Genaro, I and others who've heard you perform are consistently impressed with your respect for the language and diction, in addition to your beautiful voice. As someone who's much more of a listener than a singer, I agree with your observation that "mai" is pronounced as one syllable or two in different songs and that, in any event, it never has an `okina in the middle.
Alika, my impression is that singers from decades further back tend to separate diphthongs in this word and in general, and that more contemporary singers tend to pronounce them as one syllable, but that it varies with the meter of the song. I just leafed through my crumbling 1923 copy of Charles King's "Hawaiian Melodies" in which individual syllables are always distinctly marked for each word (whether Hawaiian or English).
"Mai" in this particular songbook is most commonly rendered as a single syllable (one note), whether when beginning a phrase ("Mai po- i- na `o- e `ia- u"), mid-sentence ("Hi- ki mai la no ho- i `o- e"), or as part of a larger word ("Mai- ka- `i Wa- i- pi- `o a- lo- lu- a na pa- li"). But it's frequently two syllables mid-sentence ("Ka le-le ma- i a ke ao na- u- lu"; "Ha- i- na i- a ma- i a- na ka pu- a- na").
Similar common words (lei, wai) are also treated both ways, depending on the song. Note that in the example above the title of the song "Maika`i Waipi`o" contains a one-syllable diphthong in "Maika`i" (the word is to be sung in three notes) followed by a separated one "Waipi`o" (the word is to be sung in four notes).
King tends to prefer separation of diphthongs in some places where most contemporary singers do not separate them. For example, in the song "Na Moku `Eha", "Maui" is a 3-syllable word. "Hawai`i" and "Kaua`i" are four syllables each.
Don't know if this adds anything to the discussion, but it's a "blast from the past".
Oh, and sorry I completely missed your post back when we had this discussion going. Yes, my page is http://www.youtube.com/alika207 Hope you like um! |
He kehau ho'oma'ema'e ke aloha.
'Alika / Polinahe |
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keoladonaghy
Lokahi
257 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2010 : 8:49:11 PM
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I didn't document it in my MA thesis, but one thing I noticed about John Almeida's pronunciation of "diphthongs" (which really don't exist in Hawaiiian) is this (and I'll try to avoid use of linguistic terms):
Most vowel clusters are one of two varieties-those that are heard to have two syllables when spoken, and those that are heard to have one. Au you'll hear spoken as one syllable. Reverse them - ua - and you hear two. It has to do with where these sounds are generated in your mouth. Vowels that are formed in the front are a, e and i in Hawaiian, and o and u more in the back. If you start with a vowel that is in the back and it is followed by one in front of it, you tend to hear two syllables. Reverse it - go from front to back, and it's still one. It's a little trickier with vowel that are closer together.
What you will also hear with some vowel clusters is a glide, either "w" or "y". Say "ia" and you'll hear a "y" glide. It shouldn't be prominent, but it is hard to say it correctly without at least a gentle "y" sound. Say "ua". You'll hear a soft "w" glide. These glides is what causes those vowel clusters to sound with two syllables instead of one.
Bear with me…
In most Hawaiian musical performance s I've heard by native or highly fluent speakers, all tend to give equal duration to the two vowels in a vowel cluster with the glide. I-a, u-a, e-a, etc. With the single syllable vowel cluster, sometimes referred to as a diphthong, there is more variation. Some people have taught that you would sing mai on a long note, say a whole note, as maiiiiiiiiiii - transitioning quickly from the "a" to the "i". I've heard that this was taught for years by KS choral instructors, but I'm not positive. I've heard more recent recording artists sing maaaaaaaaaai - holding the initial vowel longer and abbreviating the terminal vowel. Personally I'm not fond of either.
What JKA did in most of his musical performances was to give equal or close to equal duration to both vowels in these kinds of vowel clusters. maaa-iii. It's easier to hear this in notes of longer duration, like at the end of a phrase. When something like "mai" is sung on a quarter or eighth note, it's much harder to hear because the note goes by so fast. I haven't extensively listened to others, but nothing I have heard from others has jumped out at me and made me think that this was idiosyncratic to Almeida. I have a theory about durations in syllables and dissylables, but need time to really look into it and present it.
Keola |
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keoladonaghy
Lokahi
257 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2010 : 8:56:10 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by mike2jb
King tends to prefer separation of diphthongs in some places where most contemporary singers do not separate them. For example, in the song "Na Moku `Eha", "Maui" is a 3-syllable word. "Hawai`i" and "Kaua`i" are four syllables each.
Don't know if this adds anything to the discussion, but it's a "blast from the past".
Helen Desha Beamer also has Ha-wai-‘i (as spoken) pronounced Ha-wa-i‘i (In Keawaiki), and Almeida sang it that way as well. Makes sense, the Polynesian cognate is Hawaiki.
Same for Mau-i (two syllables when spoken). Mai-le became ma-i-le. In almost every case I encountered a word with a single syllable vowel cluster in the penultimate (second to the last) syllable, he would break the syllable and pronounce each separately, as if it were a dissyllable.
The best known example is o-nao-na (spoken) vs. o-na-o-na. JKA sang it in half of the songs in my MA sample, and there wasn't one o-nao-na in there. |
Edited by - keoladonaghy on 10/27/2010 8:56:42 PM |
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noeau
Ha`aha`a
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2010 : 9:24:55 PM
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Interesting discussion. But just remember that most recording artists are not native speakers nor have they studied the language extensively. So be careful when you listen to recordings. The other day there was a post about onaona and how to pronounce it. But most of you are not going to listen to much input from those who have studied the language in depth. And even if you find recordings from the twenties not every one was a native speaker then either. But if you can find H.D. Beamer recordings or Lena Machado recordings they would be very helpful. There are re-releases of recordings of chants from Bishop Museum that also might be helpful.By the way maile is a word and mai is a word but you should not use one to pronounce the other. That is apples and oranges. And most singing conventions for a longer note say a whole note in a 4 beat measure would usually pronounce the m on beat one the a for beats 2 and 3 and 4 then pronounce the i on the and of the fourth beat. Hawaiian does not have diphthongs in the sense that you all seem to relate to in English even if two vowels are next to one another. Most vowels are joined by a Y glide or W glide depending on the pair. The exceptions are usually the word ʻoe andʻoi. No W glide glide between them. Although in singing you will hear a W glide at times and some people say that is OK. I would hesitate to use King as a language reference since it seems that some notes in a song should be joined with a curved line but are not. And trying to sing individual notes in the middle of a word gives it a weird sound. I feel some these notes should be tied together. Using Nā Moku ʻEhā is one of those times where for example the syllables in a word like Hawaiʻi should have tied notes instead of separated ones. Otherwise it sounds like it should be sung ha-a-wa-i-i. Anyway thatʻs my 2 cents. Have fun trying to figure it all out.
PS: Of course Keola is doing the research and he is to be deferred to. There are always exceptions to the rule. The only rule is there are no rules. |
No'eau, eia au he mea pa'ani wale nō. |
Edited by - noeau on 10/29/2010 11:00:05 PM |
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keoladonaghy
Lokahi
257 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2010 : 09:07:53 AM
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Aloha kākou. I don't think anyone should defer to me on this. What I've researched and "know" is based on a close examination of the norms among a handful of prominent artists I know to be native speakers. There is variation in some performative aspects, but regarding these pronunciation issues being discussed, there is very strong consistency. I would love to find examples that contradict any of this, so if any of you have examples please point me to them.
I would argue that any artist recording in the 20s and 30s was likely a native speaker. In examine a large repository of interviews with native speakers, most of our faculty seem to agree that most individuals born before 1920 would be native speakers, those after not. Obviously this does not include the Ni'ihau community, the years around 1920 are a bit of mixed bag, and there is some variation based on a number of factors, including whether the individual was from a rural area or an urban one. But among singers who were already adults and recording in the 20s and 30s, I can't think of one I wouldn't consider a native speaker. That doesn't mean that their recordings were perfect either. Remember the technology - everyone records and sings at one time. Sometimes they couldn't re-record if someone made a mistake. I'm a native speaker of English and a relatively educated one, yet I can count a dozen times a day that I've mispronounced something, said something that is grammatically awkward, or misused a word. While the recordings are by and large excellent examples, you'll hear things occasionally that aren't "textbook" perfect.
I agree about not depending on King's book regarding pronunciation and the way some words are pronounced.
Regarding 'oe and 'oi, I've gotten into extended discussions with my colleagues who are stronger in linguistics than I, and really haven't come to an agreement. When said or sung quickly, you tend not to hear much of a glide. When sung on notes of longer duration, I think the vowels should be treated separately, and you will tend to hear a bit of a "w" between them. You make the transition so that it's next to impossible to hear, but the mechanics of transitioning between them is going to naturally give you that glide sound. You just don't want to make it sound prominent, IMHO. |
Edited by - keoladonaghy on 10/29/2010 09:08:33 AM |
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keoladonaghy
Lokahi
257 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2010 : 09:16:29 AM
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Another thought on 'oi and 'oe…
One of the best ways to examine any kind of vowel cluster is to listen to how it is used in the penultimate position, that is, the second to last syllable of a word. Many examples:
laila, moana, launa, luana.
Those that you pronounce with three syllables have a dissyllable - the two vowels are pronounced as separate syllables. Those that you hear as two syllables, the two vowels form a single syllable, and these are what are usually (and inaccurately) referred to as diphthongs in Hawaiian. The way stress works in Hawaiian helps differentiate them when they are in that location within a word.
We can look at words that have 'oi and 'oe in them, and hear how they are pronounced.
moena, loina, koina, koena
Loina and koina are pretty common, and they are pronounced with the two vowels forming one syllable. Moena and koena - I've heard both used. I've heard native speakers say moe-na - two syllables, and you don't hear the glide. I've not heard a native speaker use koena, but suspect it would be the same. Remember, this is as spoken, and the transition happens so quickly that you won't hear the glide prominently, if at all. When sung out over notes of longer duration, I have heard 'o-(w)-e quite frequently. |
Edited by - keoladonaghy on 10/29/2010 09:20:10 AM |
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wcerto
Ahonui
USA
5052 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2010 : 09:30:57 AM
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| Thank you very much, Keola and Al. Thank you for educating us. |
Me ke aloha
Malama pono,
Wanda |
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noeau
Ha`aha`a
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2010 : 11:09:40 PM
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I like Keolaʻs point about mistakes it is only human. Thus the statement I made about rules. Sometime people get too hung up on the mechanics and forget about the artfulness of expression. Hawaiian people are playful and we shouldnʻt forget that they might be playing with words as well sort of like punsters do. I suggest that we not take things so seriously. There is much to be said about attempting to be pono but let us not be too rigid in our endeavor. Like I try to say, it all for fun anyway. And JKA was one of the best tricksters I can think of. Thanks Keola, for sharing your knowledge.
I also have heard that thought about ʻoe and ʻoi in song versus spoken and since the jury is still out I guess Iʻll flow with the consensus too. |
No'eau, eia au he mea pa'ani wale nō. |
Edited by - noeau on 10/29/2010 11:12:38 PM |
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Bau
Lokahi
USA
226 Posts |
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How to Sing "Mai"
