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sm80808
Lokahi
347 Posts |
 Posted - 06/17/2011 : 01:13:45 AM
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how much better would the music be?
how much better would the relationships be?
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sm80808
Lokahi
347 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2011 : 01:15:09 AM
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| Maybe not so much... |
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wcerto
Ahonui
USA
5052 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2011 : 02:35:57 AM
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Shawn - a very thought provoking question. As you said, maybe not much. But actually, I think a lot.
I do, however, believe the junk music would be weeded out. Groups/musicians such as New Kids on the Block, Milli Vanilli, the Monkees, etc. would probably have never existed because there would be no financial gain for putting together such groups. There would not be extravaganzas such as the productions put on by Lady Gaga or Michael Jackson. If no money was to be made from making the music, there would be no money with which to put on those productions. There would be no recordings for us to listen to because no one puts out music without there being a financial incentive on some one's part. The artist may be perfectly willing to record without being compensated but surely someone down the line would need to be paid to at least cover costs involved in the materials and equipment that it takes to record.
On the other hand, the very best music that I have heard or taken part in is music played and given from the heart. Musicians such as you, Duke and Derek; musicians such as the Abrigo `Ohana and Uncle Ron Kanahele, musicians such as Martin Pahinui where the musicians play from their heart and play for the joy of making the music they love. That is the music that I value the most and that is where the relationships are. They are personal relationships. In the past few weeks we have gone "down home" for a graduation party and we have gone to a family reunion. Extended family sitting around and singing together, playing guitar or banjo, man, that was some swell music even if someone sang off key or couldn't get the words right. Because that music was from the heart and as real as anything could be. And that music was made without any thought of money being made from it.
If you are speaking in relation to music garnering awards and accolades, well I think that anyone who puts something out in front of the public wants to be recognized for doing it well. They want to know that people appreciate and value what they do. I also believe that some musicians/producers, etc., people involved in putting that product forth to the public believe that winning those awards will aid in increasing revenues. That may or may not be true. I am not certain how widely the buying public has bought the past couple of Hawaiian Grammy winning recordings. However, in the absence of that award or in the absence of Na Hoku awards, there would certainly be less hurt feelings and bad blood.
Also, if money was not to be made from music, people might not get quite as upset when someone kakaroaches their music or their intellectual products.
Back even in olden times, good musicians were valued and indeed there were wandering troubadours or for instance chanters or hula dancers who were quite esteemed that would travel.
You sure bring up some great points to think about and cogitate on. |
Me ke aloha
Malama pono,
Wanda |
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thumbstruck
Ahonui
USA
2168 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2011 : 04:04:08 AM
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| Eh, Shawn. There's an old fiddle tune, "Fiddler's Dram", the name of which shows that the musician was accorded special status, even though he/she might not be friend or family, they still got to partake of the the festive beverage. Shoots, even when playing for a baby lu'au, the musicians get to at least eat. The tension created by commercialism is a 2 edged sword. Musical ideas are dispersed while some go by the wayside. All in all, the positive side of the commercial system has allowed us on the mainland to enjoy and learn ki ho'alu as well as other musical styles. YouTube (mahalo for your hard work, Aunty Wanda!) allows us into the kitchens, living rooms, garages and back yards of "local" musicians worldwide. Commericalism at work, but with a nice twist. |
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sm80808
Lokahi
347 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2011 : 04:41:06 AM
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Wanda - To be positive, and I feel this so much more now that I have been away a while, I really appreciate that in my life I can play music that I love with people I love.
Kory - I agree. I seem to find more inspiration watching people do what they love on youtube than any other media source. When are you going back to Oahu next?
_____________________
Here is some very good advice that was passed on to me by some musicians I respect a lot:
Don't quit your day job
YMMV |
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Peter Medeiros
`Olu`olu
546 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2011 : 06:22:26 AM
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E Sean,
you came back home yet? |
Edited by - Peter Medeiros on 06/17/2011 06:22:49 AM |
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RWD
`Olu`olu
USA
850 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2011 : 06:31:38 AM
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I understand the idealalistic emotion behind the idea but I do not think it would work out for very long. Most musicains play for the right reasons and have passion so I dont think the music would improve. But, this is what I think would happen:
Musicians like to play for people and wherever musicians decide to play people will gather. Because of human nature, someone will eventually benefit finacially by catering to the people--and the musicains will notice.
Things will be back to the way they are right now in a jiffy (wiki wiki).
Is this too pessimistic for you? LOL! |
Bob |
Edited by - RWD on 06/17/2011 06:34:32 AM |
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slipry1
Ha`aha`a
USA
1511 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2011 : 06:35:07 AM
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| As I have said here often, the "suits" that run the music business are only interested in selling the sponsor's "product" and are not interested in the art of music. The Grammys are made for and by those people, which is why I don't care what happens there. That's why so many young (and old) people are making their own music and ignoring the music buisness unless it fits what they want to do. Remember he musicians' first commandment - "Don't give up your day job". I call it "self patronage". Even Led has a day job. Of course, I like to be paid for playing - it feels good, even though I have to play songs I don't care for. What a dilemma! |
keaka |
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chunky monkey
Ha`aha`a
USA
1022 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2011 : 07:53:59 AM
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| Nothing creates a "market" faster than telling people thay can't have one. |
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Lawrence
Ha`aha`a
USA
1597 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2011 : 10:46:33 AM
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Forget the Fifth Symphony of Beethoven, or any of them. Also forget Bach, Mozart, Handel and most all of the rest of the Classical Music Composers. Most all of them were sponsored by wealthy aristocrats (or the church) and most would not have had much time to compose their great works if they had to have a "day job". Especially Bach, he had like 20 something kids and Germany did not have any kind of tax and welfare benefits given out for parenting at the time!!
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Mahope Kākou...
...El Lorenzo de Ondas Sonoras |
Edited by - Lawrence on 06/17/2011 10:53:44 AM |
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sm80808
Lokahi
347 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2011 : 11:50:25 AM
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I guess I should have posed my question from the standpoint of what is relevant to today.
Maybe I should have asked how much happier "pro" musicians would be if they defined success differently.
Why does it seem as if success is how many awards you win, how much money you make and how new your BMW is? Meanwhile, musically no progress is made.
Oh wait, all those happy feelings and junk don't put rims on the Escalade. |
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markwitz
`Olu`olu
USA
841 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2011 : 11:55:46 AM
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If there were no economic motivation in music I never would have had the chance to see,
Ledward Kaapana
Dennis Kamakahi
David Kamakahi
George Kuo
Aaron Mahi
Martin Pahinui
Cyril Pahinui
Willie K
Makana
Weldon Kekauoha
Bryan Tolentino
Herb Ohta, Jr
Ohta-san
Jon Yamasato
Marlene Sai
Raiatea Helm
Hoku Zuttermeister
Mike Ka'awa
Paul Kim
Jeff Au Hoy
That Cute Ocean Kauwili
Eddie Kamae
Faith Ako
Robi Kahakalau
Nathan Aweau
Barry Flanagan
Keli'i Kaneali'i
Chino Montero
Amy Hanaiali'i
Patrick Landeza
George Kahumoku
Keoki Kahumoku
Kenneth Makuakane
Kaukahi
The Makaha Sons
Na Leo Pilimehana
Maunaloa
Na Palapali
Shawn Ishimoto
to name a few!!
Let's not forget the hula dancers!! They gotta eat as well.
I think I'll stick with the current capitalist system. I don't think these people would be showing up at my house at 8:00 PM to serenade me on my doorstep. |
"The music of the Hawaiians, the most fascinating in the world, is still in my ears and
haunts me sleeping and waking."
Mark Twain |
Edited by - markwitz on 06/17/2011 12:05:19 PM |
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markwitz
`Olu`olu
USA
841 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2011 : 12:08:58 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by sm80808
Meanwhile, musically no progress is made.
What's your definition of "musical progress"? |
"The music of the Hawaiians, the most fascinating in the world, is still in my ears and
haunts me sleeping and waking."
Mark Twain |
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sm80808
Lokahi
347 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2011 : 12:31:32 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by markwitz
If there were no economic motivation in music I never would have had the chance to see,
yada...
Great, but that wasn't what I asked.
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wcerto
Ahonui
USA
5052 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2011 : 12:53:37 PM
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I believe that if economics were not a motivation in music it would be a sadly quiet world except for personal social situations where people would get together and make music together. However, since there would be no competition because economics is removed from the picture, I would imagine that personal relationships woild be the same as any other personal relationships: have ups and downs, agreements and disagreements, differences of opinions.
But I also think that somehow, a competition would enter into it even if no economic incentive. Like when someone sings "`Alika" and holds that note for a long, long, long time, trying to be like Aunty Genoa or someone like that. Then if they do they get lots of applause and hoots and hollers from an appreciative audience.
When I say I value music that is from the heart, I do want to go on record as saying that music which I do not personally care for does not mean that the performer of that music is not making music from their heart. I mean that the music that someone plays from their heart somehow touches my heart, or my na`au. It moves me our touches me in some undefinable way. But that is the stuff I love. Just because I do not love something else doesn't mean I am calling everything else "junk" or the makers of that music "junk". We are all permitted to have our own personal tastes. No different than I don't like liver or chittlins or scrambled pork brains. I prefer tiramisu and lasagna and pinto beans with ham hocks more better. |
Me ke aloha
Malama pono,
Wanda |
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sirduke58
`Olu`olu
USA
993 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2011 : 3:19:21 PM
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Here's my personal story for what it's worth..............
I first started learning the guitar & slack key when I was around 15 years old.For 34 years I spent countless frustrating hours listening & wrecking my brains trying to learn every song that interested me. Popular standard tuned songs were easier because you could get chunks of it from others who were playing it at the time. Ki ho'alu was much more difficult to learn. There were no other players I knew of and certainly no kumus at all!!!Learning by ear was a slow, tedious process & no matter how close it sounded there was always the uncertainty of whether or not you were playing it right.
Up until 2007 when I met & studied with Oz, no one knew I played music.Hardly any friends & family knew I played. Oz & Bruddah Jay pushed me out into the open saying "It would almost be a crime if you don't share your music" It took a lot of convincing by them to get me out of the closet. My motivation for learning was never to please or impress anyone else, it was always just for my personal pleasure & satisfaction. I could have died content just playing for my own enjoyment.
I've just recently started getting paid to perform music. It's nice and the pats on the back are pretty cool too. Can't say I'd be compelled to return the money being thrown at me but it will never be the motivation that drives me. Love of my music is first & foremost. I don't want to take the "play" out of "playing music". If you make it about money then it becomes work & no matter if it's a job you love, it's still WORK There's enough people out there chasing the almighty music dollar to serve the purpose.In the meantime I'll be just "Playing"
Well that's my story & I'm sticking to it
Eh Shawn, looking forward to playing some "just for fun" music with you when you get home |
Hoof Hearted?...Was it you Stu Pedaso? |
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What if there were no economic motivation in music
