| Author |
 Topic  |
|
cy
Aloha
1 Posts |
 Posted - 09/27/2003 : 11:56:37 PM
|
Aloha,
I've got two concerns:
(1) I am wondering...among slack key players is there a general trend/preference towards steel or nylon?
I just started playing slack key recently on a steel string guitar. With all the sliding, my fingers start really hurtin'. The pain is gradually getting better, but I'm thinking about buying a nylon string classical guitar. I'm thinking it'll sound much nicer too.
(2) I've read about koa wood on the internet, but I'm wondering how distinct koa is in the form of a guitar. What does koa wood capable of that other woods aren't? How much is the lowest priced koa guitar? How easy is it to find a guitar that is made entirely of koa?
Thank you. Goodnight.
-Cy
|
|
|
Reid
Ha`aha`a
Andorra
1526 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2003 : 4:02:41 PM
|
Aloha e Cy,
The majority of slack key players play steel stringed guitars. The finger tip pain happens to all of us in the beginning; you'll get over it. It ain't the worst pain that guitar playing can give you, either - I know.
Every wood combination (top vs. back and sides), made by the same maker, sounds different. The luthiers I know have told me (and it is my experience, as wel) that the top wood has the greatest affect on the sound of a guitar (given the same maker and the same player) in about an 80-20 ratio. Koa usually gives a bright, clear, "transparent" sound, as back and sides. The top wood (as well as the luthier's skill and intent) can modify that considerably, however. As far as price: because of its increasing rarity, solid koa body guitars are usually the highest priced guitars in any maker's range. However, there are as many price ranges as there are different makers. From $500 to $15,000, depending. There is no simple answer to your question.
Look around the web and find out what people are charging.
...Reid |
 |
|
|
David
Akahai
92 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2003 : 5:37:29 PM
|
I own both classical and steel string guitars, but play steel about 10/1. It's a subjective choice, based purely upon my preference. I like the greater range in sound possible with steel, the bright treble, the jangle, the harmonics ... But recently a member has been remarking about the music of Moses Kahumoku, and he certainly makes his guitar sing, as do Keola and Ozzie (both part time classical players). There is certainly nothing wrong with owning both steel and classical, having the best of both worlds and then gravitating toward a preference.
When I was a kid, I saved for and bought a Martin steel string, think a D-18. I played this like mad, and treated it like dirt. Meanwhile my father had a fine Martin Classical, always kept in it's case and well cared for. I was not allowed to touch it unless under supervision or with blood oath kine permission. It was so shiney and beautiful, and I treated it like glass. The sound to my ears back then ... it had a deep, dark, seductive, mysterious sound that I could hear in my sleep. It also had this "forbidden" mystique which probably added to the guitars legendary status.
My father has moved on, and now I still treat this guitar like glass. The mystique is still alive, and now also symbolic of this wonderful man who gave the gift of music to all of his children. That doesn't stop me from trying to make it sound more like a steel string with better strings. Now being a half a century old, this guitar is shimmery and moody. This classical is one guitar which will never be sold or traded.
It does not take too long to develop the callous required to play pain free. Certainly classical strings are less demanding and this is an easy way to advance. I would just eat the discomfort and enjoy the playing. Soon ... monsta fingas.
Koa I know little about, except that it's a very attractive hardwood growing increasingly rare. As a kid I admired Duke Kahanamoku and his huge solid koa surfboard. The wood has this kind of deep Hawaiian association, creating a lurking lure inside me I suppose. But so far my guitar purchases have been based upon sound qualities without adding koa desire to the equation. It seems to me that this desire is a fundamental factor in peoples decision to seek koa. Some people might just want the status of a rare, depleted wood. Status seeking and a soulful experience are quite different. I've never played a guitar with koa top wood, but my experience with koa bodied guitars sounds like Reid's description. |
|
|
|
duke
Lokahi
USA
163 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2003 : 5:57:42 PM
|
Nice post Kawika. I have a similar opinion about steel vs. nylon. I have both, and my steel string is an excellent guitar but these days, a moderately priced classical guitar (Aria) I picked up a few years ago is in hand more often than anything else. It even takes front seat to one of those new Taylor nylon string guitars that I purchased rather impulsively last year(mainly because it had electronics). It's a nice guitar, but the Aria has acquired a buttery tone that pleases my ears. I have decided that if I need to be heard (i.e. in public) I'd just as soon mic the Aria. Anybody interested in buying the Taylor, let me know!
Duke (not Kahanamoku) |
|
|
|
RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2003 : 6:49:18 PM
|
I own both steel and nylon and play the nylon almost exclusively. The only time I switch to steel is if the harmonics are an essential feature and I want the extra brilliance. I almost never play in a strumming style - practically always in a figerpicking style - I love the softness and the range of expressiveness of tone. (If you wantt o hear what a master can do in terms of range, pick up one of John Williams's recordings - my favorite is "The Magic Box." I've even been able to adapt two of those songs for my playing.) I'm told that I get pretty good projection from my guitar, but honestly I don't hear that from my side, so I outfitted my classical style with Baggs dual source pickup and have had no trouble even in a street festival stage setting.
As to koa - don't know. My guitar was in the 800 - 1000 range which I bought used at a substanmtial discount, and, to me, it has beautiful tone. I can't find anything better under 3,500 and I don't have that kind of money to shell out, nor would I if I had the money. (I did, however spend 800 on a Miranda travel guitar - but that sounds good enough to use as a second guitar on stage.) I'm more interested in improving my playing that looking for a guitar that will magically make me sound great. I realize that for others te guitar is an object of aesthetic appreciation in itself. I have no problem, with that. For me it is a tool to play music.
Raymond
San Jose |
|
|
|
cmdrpiffle
`Olu`olu
USA
553 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2003 : 9:40:26 PM
|
Cy,
What David said, so beautifully.
Steel is the norm among slack key players, but again, listen to Moses
I, like no doubt many, have both guitars and play each according to the nuance of the piece. Moses' slower, non rhythmic style is most definately suited to nylon stringed guitars. Very classical in his approach to slack key. Highs and ebbs.
If you have steel, and have the chance to purchace a nylon classical guitar..by all means do it. ANY piece of music played faster or slower depending on the instrument only adds to the overall enjoyment of the style.
Many of us will swear that some pieces are made to be played on one or the other...it's just the standard. But never hesitate to experiment on a fast steel piece played slower on nylon or vice versa.
Anyone can write a piece of music.
But when you are alone, and YOU are playing your version of it, how you see fit, and it makes your heart sing.....
That's kiho'alu
Mike
|
my Poodle is smarter than your honor student |
|
|
|
Mainkaukau
Lokahi
USA
245 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2003 : 11:17:04 PM
|
| Aloha one and all. Hey, I really appreciate everyone's advice and stories regarding this reoccuring topic. In my opinion, the avid guitar player needs to have both nylon and steel-string guitars. Each type has it's own sound (nothing like the "Twang" of a steel-strings) and purpose (nothing like nylon-strings if you have a aggressive style of playing). When I record, I prefer to use a steel-string guitar just to make sure I'm playing those high notes only cats and dogs can hear. As for "Koa" wood guitars, I really can't say but they sure are pretty. Have a fun kanikapila! |
|
|
|
RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2003 : 4:23:20 PM
|
aloha piffle,
not sure what you mean by playing slower on a classical style guitar. Maybe I just don't get what you are trying to say, but it seems to me that you can play a classical guitar as slow or fast as you want to/are able to/as the song requires - I don't see any difference in the potential for setting tempo between a steel string or a nylon string. Am I missing something?
Raymond |
|
|
|
David
Akahai
92 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2003 : 5:21:15 PM
|
Now I'm laughing. I have a 14 dog named Petey, happy as a clam. He's in a jam but doesn't know it ...... no more teeth, almost deaf. Over the past few years, he's challenged my vet's surgical skills and come out the victor, poor thing. If he's outside galavanting around and I call him, sometimes I see his head pivot around looking for me, and he'll usually trot off looking in the wrong direction. But if I play steel string .... zing ..... there he is!! So funny.
Duke, it's really satisfying to hear that your Aria has become a favorite. A few years ago I purchased a LaPatrie Collection classical for $350 used and I love the sound. Seeing people play inexpensive guitars well seems like a triumph to me. Piffle, I know you feel the same way, and I will probably order that Washburn Rover. Raymond, I have to agree that time on the guitar is the real deal.
I do find that I can navigate more quickly on a more narrow necked steel string, and probably use the classical for slightly slower paced songs. Additionally, for those of us who play steel more frequently, there is a small adjustment period when getting reaquainted with the wider playing field .. perhaps 20 minutes for me. I have more trouble barring, and miss access to the upper frets. Certainly guitarists specializing in classical can smoke! Again using Moses as an example, I'm still trying to figure out how he accomplishes some of his incredible techniques. |
|
|
|
David
Akahai
92 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2003 : 6:05:12 PM
|
| Oh sorry the typo ...... Petey's a 14 year old Irish terrier. |
|
|
|
cmdrpiffle
`Olu`olu
USA
553 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2003 : 7:50:56 PM
|
Aloha Raymond,
No, you are wrong. You can only play slow on a nylon stringed instrument, no exceptions, no way. :)
Actually, what I wrote was 'Moses' slower non rhythmic style is most definately suited to nylon stringed guitars'. I was referring to his, Moses Kahumoku's particular style, on that, his 1 solo album.
Slower non rhythmic wasn't a slight either. Quite the opposite. We all I suppose have an absolute favorite style for slack key, one above all others. This album is mine. Barre none (get it?), I crack myself up.
You can of course play fast or slow on either guitar. Although I stick by my assertion that 'some' pieces only sound best on certain instruments. Bach's Prelude Cello Suite #1 for example, or Layenda, just sound wrong played on steel. I play almost exclusively nylon, I've a Ramirez R4, but hell, its not koa:(
piffle
|
my Poodle is smarter than your honor student |
|
|
|
javeiro
Lokahi
USA
459 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2003 : 12:20:51 AM
|
It seems that we have quite a few classical guitar players here. I have both types, but find myself playing the steel strings almost exclusively. I guess I just prefer the brighter highs, deeper bass and longer sustain that comes from the steel strings.
I have two steel string guitars; a Taylor 812-C of rosewood & spruce that I treated myself to several years ago to the tune of $1,800 and a Takamine F470SS of koa and spruce that I bought used for $750 just before I left Hawaii a year and a half ago. While I shopped for a very long time and tried many different guitars before buying the Taylor, it just took me two minutes with the Takamine to know that it was more than worth the asking price and gladly shelled out the cash. And while I still love to play the Taylor, I almost always pick up the Takamine first. Though the Taylor sounds great and is a little easier to play (and easier on the fingers), the very sweet and balanced sound that eminates from the Takamine is just perfectly suited to my style of playing. Is it because it's koa? I'm sure that it's part of the reason that it sounds that way but that's just my opinion.
I do love koa guitars and never miss the opportunity to try them whenever I see one. And I will say that most of the ones that I've played have sound qualities that are similar to my Takamine, though I have played a few that did not impress me. Just as an aside, I recently played a Martin J-14 that was cherry and spruce (first time I've ever seen a cherry guitar) that had an absolutely beautiful, mellow sound. It almost sounded as if the guitar had already aged very nicely. It was listed at $1,599 and the store I was in had it on sale for $1,050. Had it been made of koa instead, I'm certain it would have been upwards of $3,000 or so.
So I guess what I'm really saying is that it's all in what you want to play and the quality of the sound that you prefer. Try lots of instruments and try to remember how each of them makes you feel. Then narrow your selection down and go back and play them again. I'm sure you'll make the right decision.
Aloha, |
Aloha,
John A. |
|
|
|
RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2003 : 02:22:35 AM
|
piffle,
definitely do agree that some songs sound best on steel strings, some best on nylon
raymond |
|
|
|
RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2003 : 4:47:41 PM
|
BTW, piffle,
you play that Bach stuff on an R4 -- very impressive.
As close as I can come is playing it on my stereo
Raymond
Sab Jose |
|
|
|
cmdrpiffle
`Olu`olu
USA
553 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2003 : 6:36:29 PM
|
Aloha Raymond,
Don't know if impressive is accurate. I'm re-recording the Prelude Cello suite #1 onto disk. In the past I've been able to breeze thru it, but Sunday, I put in about 4 1/2 hours on the 1st first 16 bars.
Weird how things you could play in your sleep get lost when you do something else for a while. I've been playing pretty consistently in 'standard' tuning for the last few months. I'm also sticking to a couple of my classical guitars. It takes a little bit to get the feel back (wider boards and strings), after doing the 6 string steel thing for the last year.
When I think I'm doing pretty well, I've a cassette tape or 2 of Segovia that I play. Knocks me back a few notches, and makes me practice more I suppose.
BTW....I read your review, and got to listen to the sound links!
Too cool.
Mike |
my Poodle is smarter than your honor student |
|
|
|
RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2003 : 11:07:27 PM
|
Yeah, I find that if I haven't played something for a few months there's a new learning curve. BTW, you might want to catch John Williams' latest - Venezuelan guitar pieces - talk about smoking the guitar! (My Williams favorite is still The Magic Box - great African polyrhythms.) I love Williams' tone - clean, clear, ringing, at the same time soft and sweet. I also like him 'cause he was willing to take on the "segovia" mystique in public - and sine he was the man's protege, his comments have real cachet. I like people who move "Out of the Box" even when it is the "Magic Box: we all love so much,
Raymond
san Jose |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Topic Locked
