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barry luttrell
Aloha
Canada
13 Posts |
 Posted - 05/13/2004 : 7:54:22 PM
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I have been fingerpicking for 10+ years & started slack-key August last year...I usually divide my practice/playing time equally between standard tuning & slack-key. Since August I have managed to learn 3 Ozzie Kotani songs, 1 Led Kaapana[E Lili'uE]& 1/2 way thru Slack-Key Lullaby[a struggle] & have just received the 3 Ron Loo books...I consider my progress to be slow & steady, which is OK as that's I find, the most effective way for me to learn & retain;my past playing has been an asset. My point in writing is to bring up what I see as my major stumbling block[and I already know the answer i.e. practice, practice and more etc.]. Anyway, it's hammers as Kotani calls them, Ron Loo calls them hammer-ons/pulloffs, where the intent is to get 3 distinct notes; when the pros do it you hear 3 clear notes, when I do it you will hear the first 2 notes, and on a good day you might hear the third, but usually it's muffled or missed altogether. As I said I sortof know the answer already, practice and maybe on the millionth try I will have it and then I will say to myself, there that wasn't so hard, but it would be interesting to get others feedback and opinions. I know there are 2 ways to do the pulloff, pulldown or flick up...flicking up seems the most natural to me...Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks.
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marzullo
`Olu`olu
USA
923 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2004 : 8:03:48 PM
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aloha e barry,
you might try to practice it only with your left hand (assuming you're right handed). don't pluck, and hammer on and pull off a nonvibrating string. that isolates the part you're having problems with, yes? if you do it with enough force, then the string will ring just due to the impact of your fretting finger.
if you don't get any sound, then try using more force. or go make a peanut butter and honey sandwich and don't completely wash your hands afterwards (;-)
if the string rings with the hammer but dies when you pull your finger off, then you're damping it in the pull-off. that is, by removing your finger, you stop it from vibrating. play around with how you remove your finger to see if you can figure out how you're doing that.
if you wish, you can try a "push-off" (i guess you call this a flick up?. maybe you can already do this? if not, then when removing your fretting finger, slide it a bit to the side so that it lightly plucks the string while being removed. for a push-off, i put a bit of lateral tension on the string - not enough to make the string go noticably sharp, as if were bending the string, but enough that in removing your finger you get a little bit of a pluck.
hope this helps,
keith
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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2004 : 8:30:52 PM
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Good advice from Keith.
Excercise I used: start on 1st string, do hammer on/pull usings 1 & 2 frets (I did both index/middle, then index ring, but that might be overkill), then frets 1 & 3 then frets 1 & 4,
then move to frets 2 & 3, 2 & 4, 2 & 5, etc.
Go all the way to 12+, then work back down to 1.
I found that by doing that once or twice a day with full attention, I got it down pretty fast.
Key to hammers isn't how high you "strike" from but the speed with which you hit down. In fact, the higher you start from the harder it gets to keep good smooth flow.
My problem with pulls had to do with thumb position. Not getting enough leverage to hold the string down well as I pulled off with the other finger. Thumb should be aligned square and opposite of the "anchor" finger. Also left hand callouses had to be well developed and the pull off had to come from the callous.
Good luck & welcome to the ohana |
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cpatch
Ahonui
USA
2187 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2004 : 11:09:47 PM
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Ray Kane is pretty much the only one I know who does push offs. He says he does them that way out of laziness...at the end of a push off your finger is somewhere over the fretboard and closer to where it needs to go next than it would be after a pull off. I've practiced it both ways. If you're doing a pull off you want to hammer on the string slightly closer to your body so that you can pull down on it as you pull away. If you're doing a push off you want to hammer slightly closer to your legs to that you can push up on it is you push away. The secret to either, as I found, is that you are not simply lifting your finger off the string but you are actually plucking it slightly as you pull/push away, as Keith mentioned. Callouses also help as Raymond says, since you can catch the edge of the string on the side of the callous which makes it easier to get that plucking action as you move the finger away. (You want the pluck to be subtle, otherwise you'll hit the string below/above as well. (I cheat when doing a pull off on, say, the second string by plucking down and resting my finger on the first string when I'm done so it doesn't sound!)
While this is definitely a case where practice helps, it also involves technique (the pluck) so that if you're not doing it right you won't get it no matter how much you practice. Hopefully the suggestions you've received will help with the technique so that it all comes together for you. |
Craig
My goal is to be able to play as well as people think I can. |
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Admin
Pupule
USA
4551 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2004 : 11:19:44 PM
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Having played guitar prior to taking up slack key, after futile attempts to mimick the hammer-on, pull-offs of Metallica, I never could do the "push offs". If flicking up seems the most natural to you - great, you're already playing like Uncle Ray.
My only advice is to practice with the goal of precision, speed, and accuracy. Those 3 things seem to be more important that strength and pressure, I think. As you become more comfortable, you'll start getting good timing too. |
Andy |
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cpatch
Ahonui
USA
2187 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2004 : 01:09:58 AM
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| Andy, the trick to the push offs is to hammer on so the upper half of your finger pad is on the string and the lower half is on the fretboard (a little exaggerated, but you get the idea). Then when you flick off you catch and pluck the string with the bottom half of the pad. For some reason I can only do it on steel string though. |
Craig
My goal is to be able to play as well as people think I can. |
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Karl Monetti
`Olu`olu
USA
756 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2004 : 5:33:28 PM
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Barry,
I alternate between push and pull-offs. Depends on where I am going to go next. If i am staying on the same string, the pull off is usully what happens (I don;t know that I really even think about it, it just happens). If the next notes are on inner strings (most puull offs are on the top string) then I push. Also, if I want a louder ring I will push the note. But, all this is just what works for me,and i think that is what I heard from everyone else as well. That, and Bugs Bunnie's admonition to pwactice pwactice, pwactice.
Karl |
Karl
Frozen North |
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barry luttrell
Aloha
Canada
13 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2004 : 7:33:26 PM
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Gentlemen...Thanks for the advice & I'll keep it all in mind when I practice & see what works best for me...actually it does work well for me at times, but when it doesn't my perfectionism & impatience come rushing forth. It helps to have this forum available for us new guys who can benefit from the experience of the grizzled veterans.
Barry |
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Mainkaukau
Lokahi
USA
245 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2004 : 7:46:25 PM
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| When playing Slack-Key guitar, hammer-ons/pulloffs and other fun fancy stuffs are like using adjectives when speaking. The more you study/practice or use/play words/notes the more entertaining your speaking/music will become. Thank you/mahalo. |
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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2004 : 12:11:31 AM
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Perfectionism and impatience .... hm, what's that?
A lot of musicians who have gotten caught up in that stuff say they benefit from working through the book "The Inner Game of Music" by Greene (I believe.) This is a book frequently used by music majors and advanced students in lots of schools. It can also be helpful to amateurs. |
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marzullo
`Olu`olu
USA
923 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2004 : 02:11:31 AM
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hey, who you calling grizzled? 
boy, it's a good thing you're nowhere near, or i'd thwump you with my cane. 
aloha,
keith (who is happy that no one calls me "uncle" yet)
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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2004 : 1:52:02 PM
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Keith,
Maybe you just skipped uncle and went straight to grandpa? |
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barry luttrell
Aloha
Canada
13 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2004 : 7:31:45 PM
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Doesn't everybody struggle with perfectionism & impatience in their playing? Experience has taught me that the more I practice & play the less these demons are present, but nevertheless they are there & I have to be on guard that they don't become a problem.
Anyways, as far as slack-key goes I am a "yout"{as Joe Pesci kept saying in that movie whose name I can't remember} but in human years I'm probably more grizzled {age 66} than the rest of youse, so nobody take offense.
I'll try to check out that book, The Inner Game Of Music.
Barry |
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Admin
Pupule
USA
4551 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2004 : 12:04:59 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by barry luttrell
Doesn't everybody struggle with perfectionism & impatience in their playing?
Yes always! Often feel like I'm improving at a snail's pace or even regressing at times. Then I stop to think what I've learned compared to a year earlier and I realize that progess has been made. It's kind of like being with a kid who is growing a little taller each day (somedays more growth than others) but if you didn't see him for a whole year, the growth cannot be missed. |
Andy |
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Karl Monetti
`Olu`olu
USA
756 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2004 : 01:11:21 AM
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Barry,
The movie was "My Cousin VInnie"
Karl |
Karl
Frozen North |
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braissle
Aloha
7 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2004 : 11:14:10 AM
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| Back to the notion of hammer on /pull offs, You would benefit by studying the way Uncle Ray Kane does it to see how it can be most effectively used. Check out his rendition of Punahele on this album http://www.dancingcat.com/recordings/08022-38001-2.html Uncle Raymond plays this solo, thanks to the wonderful recordings done by George Winston, so you can really hear his work with hammer on /pull offs, and he adds chimes in for decoration to keep it interesting. If you don't have this album, go check it out and listen carefully. Also check out the rest from Dancing Cat -- it's all extraordinary in my book. I studied from Uncle Ray for 5 of the most wonderful years of my life, and I can show you how he does Punahele in detail (if you are near South Texas), including the push offs he does rather than pull offs. It's a wonderful thing to watch him play. Aloha |
Real old style Slack Key in the style of Raymond Kane |
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