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Kapila Kane
Ha`aha`a
USA
1051 Posts |
 Posted - 05/24/2004 : 03:03:36 AM
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Now some of us are a little deficient in tech areas...
I want to get a VERY SIMPLE setup for home studio...plug in and go.
And while PRO Tools is wonderful, I don't know how to navigate without an engineer, and would prefer something simpler...and I'm between computers right now...suggestions, but budget is moderate, and I really want to KISS, but that is decent.
One or two good mikes, (computer options Mac/PC or?) and perhaps a program thats similar to Pro tools but easier/quick to learn.
I don't want to spend my life engineering!
This is for a musical drawing board--organizing and perhaps enough technology to smooth out my playing inconsistencies. And convey songs and groundwork for sharing my works in progress with professionals and friends.
Gracias,
Gordon
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Fran Guidry
Ha`aha`a
USA
1579 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2004 : 12:21:02 PM
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My experience is very limited - I've only dealt with PC based recording. But I have done a fair amount of research and a few upgrades. There are a number of recording devices that are intended for low cost "scratchpad" recording, but none of them support sharing your work in a convenient way. You'll still need to move the audio from the scratchpad recorder to your PC in order to burn CDs to share.
You also mention the possibility of using "technology to smooth out my playing inconsistencies." If you're going to go beyond the absolute basics of recording and burning CDs, you should expect to deal with a learning curve.
My first attempt at recording used the sound card that came with my computer. I used a Behringer MX802 mixer ($60) as a mic preamp, and connected that to the Line In jack on my sound card with cables and adapters from Radio Shack. I had only one mic, a Shure SM57. For software I used Cool Edit 2000. With this rig I was able to learn the basics of recording (find the Windows mixer and make sure the Line In is enabled) and mic placement (aim the mic at the 12th fret, not the soundhole).
I upgraded my mic to a Shure SM81 condenser, and I did a set of tracks to demonstrate PC recording to a friend of mine. Those tracks became my CD that I pass around to friends and family.
Next, I upgraded the recording interface. I used the M-Audio Omni Studio, which included a higher quality soundcard and a preamp. Today you can get similar integrated recording interfaces in many different formats. Look at M-Audio for the Omnistudio USB or the Mobile Pre USB. The Tascam US-122 and the Digidesign Mbox are two other devices that provide mic inputs and high quality audio interface using a USB connection. I think each of these products come with some kind of recording software.
The Cool Edit software I use was bought out and is now called Adobe Audition. With this software I can edit out mistakes, punch in corrections, add reverb, adjust volume and EQ, apply compression, and convert to various formats. I have experimented a little with Audacity which is free recording software. It seems simple and effective.
For mics, I have used the Shure SM57 and SM81 mentioned above. I have also used a matched pair of Oktava MC012s from the Sound Room, where these mics are selected for quality. They are available from other sources at lower prices but without the extra screening. I have also used Neumann KM184s and TLM103s, Shure KSM44, AKG C535, Audio Technica 4051s, Schoeps CMC64s and CMC62s, and DPA 4060 miniature omnis. Now that I've tried lots of different mics, I believe that the Oktavas, especially the full set with cardioid, omni, and hypercardioid capsules, is an excellent solution.
I have read strong recommendations for Marshall MXL603s, which are quite inexpensive. I have also read positive comments on the Studio Projects C4 matched pair. I have not tried either of these mics, however.
Fran
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E ho`okani pila kakou ma Kaleponi
Slack Key Guitar in California - www.kaleponi.com
Slack Key on YouTube
Homebrewed Music Blog |
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Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2004 : 1:21:51 PM
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I want to get a VERY SIMPLE setup for home studio...plug in and go.
In that case I'd suggest a basic table-top all-in-one unit. Many different models exist, at many different price points -- everything from the very portable Zoom and Tascam "palm-studios" to full-on pro-quality all-in-ones from Roland and Yamaha.
My personal favorite that nicely balances ease of use with quality of results is the Tascam 788. I don't know if it comes with a CD burner, though.
No matter what you get, prepare to invest some time. Learning curves vary from steep to vertical on this stuff -- there's no way around it.
This is for a musical drawing board--organizing and perhaps enough technology to smooth out my playing inconsistencies.
I once was hired to fix a singer's amazing lack of pitch control on her self-produced CD. After about three hours on one song, she looked at me and said, "Is there any way we can make this go faster?" I said "Yeah, go back and sing the friggin' song in tune!"
The moral? Garbage in, garbage out.
Nothing will fix out of tune guitar playing; fixing bad timing is tedious in the extreme. However, just about any digital recorder will let you "comp" a track from the best parts of various takes.
And convey songs and groundwork for sharing my works in progress with professionals and friends.
That requires some way to mix your songs and get them into an appropriate format. Any digital recorder will let you mix to your cassette deck or standalone CD recorder. Many have built in CD burners. I think the little Zoom and Tascam units do MP3s...
As for mics -- get at least two. One should be a small condenser -- good for guitar, ‘ukulele, etc. One large -- good for voice... also guitar, ‘ukulele etc. Better, get two small ones for stereo, and a big one for the voice. If your unit doesn't have phantom power -- the inexpensive ones don't -- you'll need either a mixer or mic-pre with phantom... or battery powered mics like the AKG C1000E.
Dynamic mics like the venerable SM 57 and SM58 don't require phantom power and will do just fine.
Many retailers offer packages with a recorder, one or two mics, headphones & cable. I'd suggest calling the retailer's tech support before you buy somethine to determine if the tech-support staff actually knows anything --- some of the better known discount stores and on-line retailers don't really provide any support.
Oh, and never, never ask a sales-droid at Staples or Circuit City to help you set up a computer recoding rig. Just cuz he/she/it is 20 years old and knows a zillion ways to steal music on-line doesn't mean they have any understanding of what's involved in creating & recording music.
Hope this helps.
Happy recording!
Mark
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Darin
Lokahi
USA
294 Posts |
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Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2004 : 1:52:14 PM
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Acoustic guitar records best with a stereo pair of mics.
Amen to that. Although a stereo array is also cool: two different mics, selected for their sonic charateristics and placed accordingly. As with any stereo mic'ing, always check for phase cancellation by listening for sonice weirdness when you pan 'em to mono. (Hint: you'll need to listen on monitors... not headphones.)
I had another thought on mics: How come someone will spend $2,500 or more on a guitar and then cheap out when it comes to microphones?????
There is a reason a Nueman KM 184 costs what it does... (about $750, street)...because it is wonderful at capturing the sound of your guitar. Ditto the Shure SM 81, the AKG 414, AKG 451 and a host of other pro-level microphones. That's what you'll find in real studios -- and there's no reason (other than price) why you can't own one... or two.
So yeah, you can buy a mic that looks like a studio mic for under $100. But you can also buy a cheap guitar that looks like a real guitar... with a nice shiny finish, six whole strings, maybe even some koa-grained shelf paper stuck on the back and sides...
So go listen to a bunch of mics before you buy. If all you want is to work on arrangements and have fun, by all means save the dough and get something inexpensive.
But if you want to truly capture the essense of the instrument you love, invest a little in the gear that matters.
End of rant....
Mark |
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hapakid
Luna Ho`omalu
USA
1533 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2004 : 2:33:33 PM
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I like the Tascam 788, too. It's got a mercifully short manual to read and it's pretty easy to use. Like all decent digital recording systems, it'll quickly expose poor microphones, which are important, like Mark said.
The 788 is getting a bit dated nowadays because of the external SCSI CDR that comes with it, but it is also easy to find used at a decent price. Although they're about $800 new (with CDR), you can find them on Ebay for around $500.
While computer recording can have its advantages, the 788 will fit in a large briefcase and has enough hard disk space for about 12-15 songs at 24-bit quality. You can buy the unit without the CDR, but you can only output in analog (by wire).
I recorded a CD of about 14 songs (just for fun) on my dad's 788 and it took about 6 hours to finish it including singing, playing, adding background vocals and instruments and then mixing it down and burning it. It took about five minutes to learn the basics and then it was easy.
I like the look of the BR-1180CD, too, but it's a little more expensive.
One of the drawbacks to many ministudios, and PC recording, is the limitation that only one or two tracks may record at one time. That's okay for a solo act, but if you want to get your buddies together for a "live" session, then you're limited in how many can record at a single sitting and that takes away from the spontaneity of a group.
Jesse Tinsley |
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cpatch
Ahonui
USA
2187 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2004 : 3:05:58 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by hapakid
One of the drawbacks to many ministudios, and PC recording, is the limitation that only one or two tracks may record at one time. That's okay for a solo act, but if you want to get your buddies together for a "live" session, then you're limited in how many can record at a single sitting and that takes away from the spontaneity of a group.
True, but unless you want to be able to remix each instrument later you can use an inexpensive, portable mixer (such as the Behringers I've mentioned before) to mix down to two channels that you then feed into the ministudio/PC. |
Craig
My goal is to be able to play as well as people think I can. |
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Dana
Akahai
USA
61 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2004 : 3:31:35 PM
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Hi Gordon,
Just want to add my mana'o to the "mix"...
You have to think really think about the simple just plug in and go requirement. There certainly are a lot of all in one units that will meet your requirement in just about all price ranges, both analog and digital. However one of the problems, or limitations in my opinion with an all in one unit is that you will be limited to that bit of technology and if something breaks on that unit, you are stuck without all of the constituent components till you can get the whole thing fixed. When I started home recording, I bought a Fostex 4 tracker "all in one". It recorded to a cassette and was just ok for messing around and capturing musical ideas.... but I soon realized that there were many more things that I wanted to but couldn’t because it was an all in one design. While it did support outboard effects (very limited, insert, aux send etc..), I was still stuck with the basic "core" technology built into it….and while it is true that the Beatles (I think) did record many of their early albums using a 4 track, it wasn’t for me. So after researching and seeing what was available I came up with my basic guideline: if you plan at any point in the future to do any sort of band recording…i.e. more than 1 instrument, which includes percussion, go modular. This means discrete components; A computer (PC or Mac), multi-track editing software (Cool edit or Cakewalk or the like), mastering software (i.e. Sound Forge or the like) a mixer, soundcard (many different ones, make sure it is duplex) and outboard monitors, etc. It really isn’t that much harder to learn (besides the complexity of an all in one unit can be daunting too) and the benefit of being able to upgrade and swap out ‘components’ makes it worth it…. if you don’t like the multi track software…change it! Or if you want to upgrade the amount of inputs/outputs change it. If you want to add outboard effects…add/change them. Of cours At the very least, get good microphones; the previous posts have some good suggestions. I use Shure SM57s and Rhode NT1 Condenser microphones. Anyway…so sorry for the extended ramble…just my opinions and trying to help out! A hui ho!
Dana
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cpatch
Ahonui
USA
2187 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2004 : 5:25:15 PM
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| I just saw the June issue of "Acoustic Guitar" and it features an article on selecting microphones. Looked a little fluffy but it might be worth reading. |
Craig
My goal is to be able to play as well as people think I can. |
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Fran Guidry
Ha`aha`a
USA
1579 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2004 : 01:22:51 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by hapakid
One of the drawbacks to many ministudios, and PC recording, is the limitation that only one or two tracks may record at one time. That's okay for a solo act, but if you want to get your buddies together for a "live" session, then you're limited in how many can record at a single sitting and that takes away from the spontaneity of a group.
Jesse Tinsley
There's no reason to limit yourself to two input channels for your PC. Just bring money. The Aardvark 24/96 gives four channels with mic inputs, the Q10 provides 8. There's a new Mackie mixer line that includes a Firewire interface card. Just bring money.
Fran
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E ho`okani pila kakou ma Kaleponi
Slack Key Guitar in California - www.kaleponi.com
Slack Key on YouTube
Homebrewed Music Blog |
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Kapila Kane
Ha`aha`a
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2004 : 01:29:42 AM
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Just checked in...takes awhile to recover after my late night coffed binges!
Appreciate ALL THE FEEDBACK...
I think the advice to not go to cheap and simple is right on...
Have some mics, AKG 3000, and Shure Beta 87A and Beta 57...
ok for stage, but not the studio mics of my dreams...
Neumann tube mics are the pipe dream!
There's some high end reproductions--but their not cheap. Back to Reality.
And As Kona Bob will tell you, I'm slow on acquiring/SPENDING on Technology!
I think a component hard drive system, with a tools may be the ticket...love to be able to "comp" my guitar for recordings.
Shoots, I've played violin/fiddle for 40 years, and "comp" still happens--beats punch-ins!
Ah, Pro-Tools--As the engineer said at our session, "That stunk, come on in!"
But still I must strive to be mo-betta.
But I'll toss it around some more-- simpler systems might still be suffice for awhile.
Any more Threads out there?
Thanks All.
G
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cpatch
Ahonui
USA
2187 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2004 : 03:40:41 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by fguidry
There's no reason to limit yourself to two input channels for your PC. Just bring money.
Granted, but the original post specified "very simple" and "budget is moderate". |
Craig
My goal is to be able to play as well as people think I can. |
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`Ilio Nui
`Olu`olu
USA
826 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2004 : 10:31:00 AM
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Gordon,
With so many options out there, it really tough to make the right choices. I suggest that you use some place like Sweetwater http://www.sweetwater.com to research and buy equipment. If you call them, you can have a personal representative assigned to you who can advise you on every aspect of music gear. These guys are pros and I have never been steered in the wrong direction.
Apparently in your quest through the years to record, you have run into negative experiences with ProTools. The words ProTools and Engineer seem to go together. quote:
Ah, Pro-Tools--As the engineer said at our session, "That stunk, come on in!" AND "...while PRO Tools is wonderful, I don't know how to navigate without an engineer..."
For basic recording and playback and overdubbing, it's probably the easiest to use. The learning curve happens with editing and mastering, but by the time to get there you'll know the program.
You already have a C3000. Not the greatest acoustic guitar mic (good for vocals and micing guitar amp cabinets), but it's not bad. Aim it at the lower bout of your guitar, angled slightly at the hole. Take the Beta 87A and place it about 6 to 8 inches away from the 14th fret, aimed towards the soundhole. Do some test recording for fine tuning your mic positions and then record.
You mentioned in one of your posts that you were buying a new computer. I don't care if it's Mac or PC. Get something with plenty of power, USB and Firewire, and a CD burner. Then for $600 you can get an MBox that has two built in Focusrite preamps, MIDI capability, and ProTools LE. If you want the ability to record more than two tracks at a time, think about the Digirack 002 ($1000). Both of these options are relatively inexpensive and you'll have a very modern studio. You also don't have to spend extra money on separate recording, editing and mastering software.
Best of luck and Aloha
Dave
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Lawrence
Ha`aha`a
USA
1597 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2004 : 10:51:02 PM
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The above folks have given generally very good advice.
You have not been too specific about:
1) The hardware platform you would like to use?
(MAC PC or standalone)
2) What budget range you would like to target?
3) How many tracks do you want to SIMULTANEOUSLY record?
(You can build up tracks one by one on ANY system )
(actually two by two because even cheap soundcards
are stereo)
The above questions are pretty important from the outset.
There are lots of websites that cover this stuff, including
building your own, with some good reviews, and also some
suggestions for various target costs.
For myself (1) I choose a PC platform because I am imtimately
familiar with PC hdw and sfw.
(2) I shot for $5000 up front &another $5000 later
on as I added better stuff.
(3) I decided that I wanted to be able to record
a small ensemble or a full Drum-Set at once,
so 4 channels were not enough. The next size
larger is Eight.
My setup: 3.8Ghz P4 PC with 1 gig of RAM with lots
of pluggable hard drives (about $2000)
Echo Layla sound box (8 channels in, 10 out) $800
Mackie 1604VLZ mixer (mostly for monitoring) $900
2 Mackie HR824 Monitors) $1600 (worth the extra $)
SFW: Adobe Audition (formerly Cool Edit Pro).
I already had a large collection of dynamic mics from my old
sound & recording daze (seventies), to which I added some
relatively modestly priced Neumanns TLM103 and KM183
(note: 183 NOT 184), plus mic cables, etc, etc.
And there ya be - complete system... works good too.
Have Fun - and good luck !
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Mahope Kākou...
...El Lorenzo de Ondas Sonoras |
Edited by - Lawrence on 05/26/2004 10:52:49 PM |
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Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2004 : 12:39:34 PM
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KM183
(note: 183 NOT 184), plus mic cables, etc, etc.
For the unitiated, the difference between the KM 183 and KM 184 is in the pick-up pattern.
The KM 183 is omni; the 184 is cardiod. There's also a 185 with a hypercardiod pattern.
Lots of reasons to prefer one over the other... depending on the specifics of the situation, 'natch.
We now return to our regular programming...
Mark-o |
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Kapila Kane
Ha`aha`a
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 05/28/2004 : 02:39:31 AM
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And my final answer...
Not likely to purchase before Maui...that'll keep the budget maxed for a bit! But you can't put a price on a Spiritual Journey...but this one's in the cards; I mean ON THE CARD!
And will keep all this in mind...with adaptations for new tech developments.
Again, Gracias Amigos.
Sorry Bob...Technology must wait.
G |
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