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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
 Posted - 08/12/2004 : 5:33:37 PM
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Mark,
Good posting - not that you need my approval.
However, I think what might be useful foe a lot of people is to take your ideas and write out a few examples of them -- you listed fairly "simple" techniques but the words make them sound very intimidating, unless you've got a lot of playing and/or training under your belt.
My approach to teaching swimming is not to throw a person in the deep end, but to start off with excercises in the shallow end that lead up to being able to swim out into the deep end. I still curse the gym coach who pushed me into the deep end of the pool in freshman year - it definitely didn't teach me to swim and, in fact, made me MORE afraid of the water.
I'm working up a tape where I take my list of techniques, most of which appear on your list, but I didn't see your list till now, and apply each of them to 2 songs, then give the melodies and chords for a dozen more songs, followed by some examples for each of those songs applying the "techniques" and suggesting places where others could be applied. I needed that kind of step by step approach to get to the (very mediocre) place where I'm at.
As to social playing. You won't believe this, bit I personally don't get a buzz playing with others in social settings. It's playing the rhythm parts over and over that just gets boring - even if I arpeg. I did like playing in a band way back when, but we were working off of set arrangements and each took turns at break out solos. But even back there I wasn't playing rhythm. |
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Konabob
`Olu`olu
USA
928 Posts |
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Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2004 : 6:59:56 PM
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However, I think what might be useful for a lot of people is to take your ideas and write out a few examples of them --
Hey, whatever floats your boat. All tools are good tools if the job gets done.
I was scarfing down lunch just now and thinking about this whole issue. The metaphor I came up with was running a marathon. Now, the idea of me wanting to run a marathon is pretty dang laughable... but s'pose I wanted to do it. How would I go about it?
Well, you can be dang sure I wouldn't simply show up the morning of the race in my little shorts and try to keep up!
Nope. What I might do is start training -- doing excercises, walking more and maybe even breaking into a run once in awhile. Maybe I'd find someone who's a little further along than me and maked a date to run with him.her/it. I'd keep at it for days and weeks and months and I'd push myself... and I'd let myself get tired, and sore, and cranky. And maybe, just maybe, after doing this for a long time, I'd be able to run a marathon .. OK, so maybe a 3 K charity fun-run. But I know I could do it IF I wanted to.
OK, maybe a daunting metaphor for some. But you get the point. What I would NOT do is just sit and theorize about running... nor would I whine about getting left behind when all my friends ran.
It's the same with music -- you set yourself a goal and you take the steps to realize it.
When I said "jump in and get wet" I didn't say anything about the depth of the pool.
Oh, and I'll repeat what I said about it being a personal choice. No one, particularly not me, wants anyone to join in against her/his/its wishes.
Hey, anybody ever notice that a certain well-known slack key player never plays in sessions?
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BreezePlease
Akahai
Japan
86 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2004 : 7:53:25 PM
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Good TP People,
As neither epistemology nor cosmology are areas at which us local guys excell all that well, I have pretty much made it a point to stay away from these aspects of our TP discussions. But, yeah, maybe its time to get some doo on my shoe, too.
First, let me begin by stating the premise on which this is all based, so that if you don't agree, you can just move on.
"Kanikapila" (playing music together), I believe, is what "this thing of ours," and perhaps even more broadly, Hawaiian music itself, is really all about. The sound of one hand clapping, grasshoppers, and all that. All else is adjunct, the form of which has varied somewhat depending on the time and exigencies (then, the Kodak Hula Hula Hula Show; now, "master" workshops/concerts, etc., etc.). When you boil it all down and out, what remains, all that is really essential, is people getting together and communicating through music, Hawaiian-style, setting aside their New-Agey substitutions, Swing, Fusion, Doo-Wop, or whatever, predilections to come together on a proto (yeah, three- or four-chord) version of something that lives inside of us--of course, and to take it from there and see where it goes. You brag, tell fish stories, badger, mock, cajole, love, and reaffirm the common bonds that make us what and who we are. Long after the last CD is scrap, or the last concert played out, or ersatz Waikiki show has been cancelled, Hawaiian music will still thrive as long as two Blahs get together to kanikapila. The opposite, I believe, does not hold (which may or may not prove anything).
That said, the question of Tab. I realize that to some this appears the "only" way to/through the music, and I don't in any way seek to ruffle feathers or undermine any of your programs in any way. But, do have a few "feelings" and gentle caveats on the matter that I am absolutely certain no one can go on living another second without heeding.
Main "issues" I have with injudicious use of Tab vis-a-vis SKG:
1) Tab can redirect the dynamic of learning, therefore, that of the experience itself. In Hawaya, and perhaps most other "primitive" cultures, the quality and nature of communication is very much dictated by the quality of reception, not broadcasting. (If Gabby appeared before you right this instant and offered to teach you his licks--"Siddaun sahnnay an leesten."--would it make squat of difference?) Tab/music-in-note-form tends to direct the focus away from reception (listening/watching) and toward broadcasting (playing). It can instill the idea in the broadcaster that the music = playing the right notes at the right time. Needless to say, as all of us, I think, constantly wrestle with this very problem, all of the most important material/information--the essential--is missing from the notes alone, and over-reliance on them can further leave one without the wherewithal to apprehend this (by not learning first to listen/watch).
I think most of us can hearken back to situations in which it has been so much more satisfying hearing or playing with someone who, while he/she may not have had all the notes right, was centered on the essential than with someone with all the technical skill and flourish who wasn't.
Unfortunately, sometimes you just need a real "teacher."
2) Tab can redirect the orientation of the music itself, shifting its focus off the process and on to the result. If the process, indeed, is what this is all about, then isn't the longer, more challenging road also the more satisfying? (God, I hate rhetorical questions, don't you?)
I don't think this really needs much elaboration: one look at Uncle Ray's face after he pau playing says it all--he looks like he not only ate it all, but part of yours too. If you don't look/feel like that while and after you pay play, time to go out and buy some bowling shirts.
3) Tab can introduce, perhaps only unconsciously, the notion of Hawaiian music as static. The "songs" can become set "pieces" to be "mastered," not music to be "played," enjoyed and adapted fully and freely. As such, one unfortunate result can be that the only outlet for the music becomes presentation, kanikapilas become round-robin recitals. Also, "Hey, that's not Radio Hula!" Virtuosity/degree-of-difficulty trumps satisfaction/sustenance.
</rant>
Whoa, nuff aready. Auwe! what a mouthful from some know-it-all busybody who only happens to stand at the very beginning of what may not even be the right road. YMMV.
dry thoughts
-dean
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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2004 : 8:20:07 PM
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Dean,
It think a lot of what you said has much of a ring of truth, however, like all things human, stretch it too far and it no longer remains valid. Specifically the comments on process vs. product. Many times George Kahumoku would correct me saying something like, "That's not how it goes. Like this...." In fact, Randy Lorenzo once told me that Gabby was very exacting during recording sessions -- and that Gabby almost kicked him out of the studio for not playing it the way Gabby wanted. Getting the songs down is important -- and for people who did not grow up in the living tradition where they were passed on from family member to famly member, there needs to be some vehicle for the passing down. TAB can be one of those. (Of course if one gets too locked into TAB or notation, the piece can be lifeless -- but if you get too sloppy, too, you can loose what makes one song unique from another.) The point for me is : It's not either ... or.... The different learning methods can, and should, complement each other.
(And, in reply to Mark, I didn't mean to single out Hawaii as the only culture with a high emphasis on aural learning. It's just the one we were talking about in this context.) |
Edited by - RJS on 08/12/2004 8:24:02 PM |
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Kapila Kane
Ha`aha`a
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2004 : 05:30:04 AM
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Wow, I wander off to stargaze and the topic goes supernova...
It's all part of the process.
Get to know the notes, chords of course the neighbors! The upper and lower neighbors are everywhere!
Mozart to jazz...and even in the Extreme Southwest (Hawaii)!
Can you Sing the BASIC tune?
I gotten in trouble with some great players in Bluegrass for not quite knowing the Real Essential tune...then explore...
but there's a myriad ways to improvise...some keep the integrity of the tune, some mildly into theme and variation, and some are Very Free...more based on progression, or perhaps a complete break from the form and chords and tune...
so try to be tuned into the shifts in conciousnes, and when a strong player makes a statement that says, "listen up, we're shifting gears!" Spot the leaders as they emerge...and watch people like Bob Brozman and other strong Groove driven blokes for the signs.
As jazz players have told me, "There's no wrong notes...but there's better notes!" Or for the taropatch gang, "There's mo'betta notes!"
Still, I'm thrilled when I can simplify the time it takes to assimilate the form, some useful fingerings and/or mechanical tricks of an artists voicings.
I was thrilled when I stumbled into a tab of "Aloha Kauai" and also the tabs of Led and Ozzied at the Maui workshops. And I assume there's a bunch more of standards and favorites that are out there in our secret stashes...again, respect the intellectual proprieties, but consider the original source, and--as we've hashed it out before--ask before unwise sharing of our treasures...
Indeed, things like "Maori Brown Eyes" and others have quirky Melodic presentations...the anticipations at the beginning of many measures don't make sense without an aural model! I usually can figure out the tripletts and odd time things, but perhaps it will create a new, usuable variation! But it's nice to now what the Essence is before we "Greatful Dead" a tune.
As Jana Stanfield (geez I'm not sure of her last name-sorry) sings, "I'm not lost, I'm exploring!"
It's not rocket surgery--unless you're set on eleven!
Sorry to be late back to my germ. Thanks to all for a great thread.
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Peter Medeiros
`Olu`olu
546 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2004 : 10:26:59 PM
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This is an interesting topic and one which I can provide a point of view as a relatively good player and good scholar. When i first started teaching, that is my very first few students, in the very early 1970s, I did not use tablature, I taught by rote method -- watch and then play. it was how I had learned from my father. It was same method learned from his mother and tutu, even the same songs circa 1890-1920. The songs were mostly kui style, except for a few waltzes and thru composed pieces.
For some students it was difficult, because they were not accustomed to learning by watching and then playing a portion of the piece. And it was slow learning for them. Within the year I had learned TAB and was using it as a viable means of conveying my knowledge slack key, and I was also totally oblivious of the significance of copyright and authorship in derivative works.
Within three years former students of mine were teaching at the Hawaii Music Foundation and using the same TABs as course material. When I found out about it I was not a happy camper, especially when some of them were claiming authorship -- made them look like geniuses. In the years since, I've learned to accept that this is going to be a fact of life, but I'm better prepared now as a teacher to deal with it, that, plus the fact my undergrad degree is in music business and my wife is a lawyer. But seriously, I look at TAB basically as only one of a number of possible starting points in learning how to play slack key. I'd write more but I got to go pick up my wife.
Peter Medeiros
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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2004 : 10:58:15 PM
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Peter,
Others ripped you off -- Ozzie got ripped off.
That stuff really bothers me.
I don't buy it that that is just a part of music. If I use someone else's arrangement, I need to credit them. Plain and simple. Anything else is disrespectful and dishonest. Music world or other field. Somebody takes one of my psych articles and puts their name on it -- I'll get a lawyer after them and the publication. People who steal others' arrangements and claim it as their own should be publically called out and shunned by the playing community. (Of course, it can be a mistake, in which case it should just be recitified.)
Bottom line for me -- I simply don't share my TABS with others, with a few exceptions -- my students, and TABS that come with my tape -- but there I get some compensation. Otherwise only with a few friends. And arrangements that are really special for me - nobody else gets those until I get tired of them. I work too hard to get a decent arrangement to risk some yahoo putting their name on my work! |
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Karl Monetti
`Olu`olu
USA
756 Posts |
Posted - 08/19/2004 : 6:28:41 PM
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So far nobody has ripped me off!!! Good thing, they would not like what they got anyway.
Hey, I think tab is great. For some things.
I use it to write down what i am able to figure out from listening to recordings. Also for the few original thoughts that come up.
It is very useful for me to learn new songs, although i must also have at least one listen so I can get a feel for the tempo, phrasing, etc..
I find it a much easier alternative than learning to read music. Lazy, I guess.
HOwever;
I find it to be too much of a crutch once you "know" the song. OK, that is how somebody else plays it, so now what, am I just going to copy that guy's style the rest of my life?
I suppose it could be just like sheet music to an orchestra member....something that produces exactness and conformity. But, and here is a question I have had on my mind for years, why do professional musicians, especially thosed trained in classical music, which is pretty much devoid of any individual interpretation, much less improvisation, why do they always play with sheet music in front of them? Heck, I have been able to whistle the 1812 overture, start to finish, since I was 12! Don't they really know what comes next, or is there something I am missing?
As far as sharing tabs goes, I threatened to do that with someone on this very forum several weeks ago, and have not come through....sorry, Ray Langley, I will get on it tonight!
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Karl
Frozen North |
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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2004 : 03:19:56 AM
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First of all, it is very inaccurate to state that the world of classical music is "devoid of individual interpretation." There is a tremendous amount of interpretation in classical music -- and often very spirited arguments - even downright fights. Tosacanini vs Furwangler, Rubenstein vs Horowitz, the travesty of G. Gould -- well, I guess I'm showing my age and maybe something more than that with those examples.
As to playing by memorization, a few thoughts:
First of all, playing from memory is fairly new in the history of music. When that punk kid Mozart started doing it, he drew a lot of negative reaction, as did the other "pioneers" of playing by memory. -- The key isn't whether or not you use music -- it's whether or not you KNOW the piece.
In the realm of classical music, it is typically only the soloist, and occasionally the conductor who go scoreless/musicless -- I once heard Carlo Maria Guilini, a great conductor, joke about how real musicians play from music and prima donnas just fake it.
As to playing from sheet music -- most professionals play a huge repetoire with often little practice time in between pieces. For example, if you're a member of one of the major orchestras, you will play 2 - 5 different pieces a week, close to 2 hours of playing time, anywhere from 25 - 45 weeks a year. You also have other responsibilities in life, like teaching, keeping up with your family, etc. In addition, all the instruments in a section must be in unison. In most symphonic work, it is the conductor who determines the interpretation.
It is true that audiences have come to expect soloists to play from memory, and even more so performers of popular music, so if you're going to perform at a festival or go on stage at a for-pay concert, it's pretty expected that you memorize the work.
(((((Aside: By the way - Tabulature is a very old form of notation, specifically as lute tab - the lute is the foreruner of the guitar. If I remember my music history correctly, and I never was that good with dates, I think lute tab predates the Grand Staff (developed by Guido Arrezzo in something like 1522, yes?) The point is that tabulature is a legitimate form of musical notation.)))))
To summarize, MUSICALLY, it doesn't matter whether or not you play from music, tabs, etc -- what matters is how well you know the piece and how convincingly you can play it. As a soloist, the demands are sligtly different from playing in a group, but the basic point is the same. I have heard crappy performances from both people playing from memory and from music. I have also heard brilliant and tremendously moving performances from both. Don't be distracted by the music or not issue -- learn the songs well and play them with heart. |
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Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2004 : 1:49:06 PM
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Speaking of "classical" players & sheet music:
For a time in the early 90's I had a band called "Southern Light" - your basic folk/jazz/classical fusion group. Keyboardist Carl Mansfield & I arranged everything from Irish tunes to some standards and tons of orginal music, all duly notated so our wind player could read her parts. Which she did, brillliantly.
Only, after years or rehearsals and gigs, most of not all, of the arrangements changed almost beyond recognition: new vamps, fun little modulations, new harmonies that developed spontaneously. Wendy, however, continued to set up her music stand and turn to each song as it came up. Yep, she was "reading" a page that had nothing to do with what she was playing! We all got a good chuckle out of that -- but just having the music there allowed her to feel "grounded," even when she was playing from memory or improvising.
The point? There ain't none... just a silly anecdote.
Oh, and really:
As to playing by memorization, a few thoughts:
First of all, playing from memory is fairly new in the history of music.
Make that "fairly new in the recent history of European art music."  Which is what you meant, of course. Folk music has always been played form memory.
As has many forms of classical music:
Several years ago I had the great honor of studying for a brief time with Maestro Omar Ait-Vimoun, who is the repository of an astonishing history of Berber classical music. Pre-Arab North African Andalusian music, if you will.
I learned that a concert would typically last four hours or more and consist of several light pieces, a longer prelude, and a formal piece of music.. to be followed by more light pieces. All memorized note-for-note. Nothing written down, ever. And absolutely no improvisiation. The entire evening was considered a single, linked musical event.
At one time there were hundreds of these concert set pieces in the repertoire.
Too bad no one ever TAbbed 'em out, eh?
To learn more about this amazing music, check out this link:
http://www.institutefortraditionalstudies.org/Andaluse.html |
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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2004 : 2:25:18 PM
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Mark,
I was referrering to the "classical western repetoire."
Trully other cultures have long standing traditions of memorized performance. Another incredible example came out of Homeric studies. For a long time some reputable scholars seriously doubted whether a bard could actually recite something as long as the Iliad or Odyssey from memory -- until they ran into Turkish and Balkan bards who were doing that kind of performance well into the 1900's. (Of course, it was done in sections, and often the sections were "adapted" for the specific audience -- but can you imagine having that much performable verse in your memory.) Indian ragas are anoter example - (and how many of us would want to put in all those years of learning before we are considered "good enough?")
I think much of it boils down to the base learning style of a culture -- written or verbal, and possibly sub-groups within that culture. In broad outline, "traditional" culture tend to be aural, certainly most of "western mainstream" tends to be written -- both have strengths and weaknesses -- and both set up styles of learning. My philosophy of teaching is that, while it is good to "stretch" yourself and your students, the role of a teacher is to facilitate learning -- so if I have a student who "gets it" visually and/or aurally, that's how I teach. If I had a student who learns primarily through written material, that's how I teach. The goal isn't to focus on a teaching style, it is to facilitate the learning of new material/skills. And the goal of music education isn't to read TAB or to learn to play be ear -- it is to help people how to play music. |
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Karl Monetti
`Olu`olu
USA
756 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2004 : 5:51:22 PM
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Raymond and Mark,
Thanks for setting me straight on the use and need for sheet music in some settings. I guess it makes perfect sense, sorry if I ruffled a few feathers.
And, raymond, your last sentence, about the purpose of the tab or CD or notation or visual learning being to help people learn how to play the music , is really the essence of it all.
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Karl
Frozen North |
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