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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
 Posted - 08/15/2004 : 7:43:06 PM
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I'm putting out this idea, although I haven't thought it through entirely. I wonder if it would be feasible to create some kind of "slack key notation library." Something on a public scale as opposed to a private one like Craig has built. I know in the case of American/English Haiku, an archive was established at the California State Archive -- it now has a magnificent collection, not only of published work, but also of letters, manuscripts, memorabilia. I think in today's budgetary realities, a library would probably not want to pick this project up (unless maybe Kamehameha schools. I'm thinking something like this:
- Arrangers/writers of the TAB would donate a copy of the TAB to the archive, and they would have a full disclosure of how it works. (If possible they could include a tape or digital play through.)
- "Members" would pay an annual fee for membership to cover the costs of running the thing. WE could consider offerring the submitters of the TAB a small donation per song to say "thanks."
- Members would get an annual listing (and maybe quarterly updates) of the TAB in the collection.
- Members can then "borrow" TAB for a certain time period. There may be a slight per transaction charge which can be split 2 ways -- some to the original author of the TAB, some to the "curator" of the archive to help defray costs and time
- All members would agree that they would only make a copy for themselves if they so desire. Anyone "caught" distributing copies would be removed from membership. Anyone not returning TABS would likewise get removed from the list.
I'm open to hearing from folk about this. I would be happy to contact Ozzie if there is enough interest. I might also be willing to be the first "curator" if it turns out that the scheme is legal and submitters of TAB are willing.
What do you folks think about this?
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sbar15
Lokahi
USA
151 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2004 : 8:53:46 PM
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| This sounds like a great Idea. very well thought out raymond |
Steve |
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Lopaka
Aloha
USA
23 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2004 : 9:17:38 PM
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| I like your idea Raymond. I think it may also help keep the slack key tradition going. My guess is that the driving reason for many people who are looking for a specific piece of tabulature is that they want to learn to play a certain piece in the style it was meant to be played. I'm not in favor of taking anything away from the original artists, but then again to be Hawaiian includes sharing with others. |
H a w a i i a n ..at heart! |
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marzullo
`Olu`olu
USA
923 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2004 : 9:31:14 PM
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one way to test this idea for sanity (as well as to find a possible home) is to approaoch randy fong at the university of hawaii in the hawaiian studies institute. or, perhaps better, to refine the idea with winona beamer (who has great contacts with UH).
i don't understand your model of borrowing. i don't see how a paper-based version would offer more protection than an on-line version; it would add latency to the copying.
perhaps some artists would be willing to add tab of work for a fee upon distribution.
keith |
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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2004 : 12:23:33 AM
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Keith -
The idea of keping the circulation on paper, one TAB at a time, is to slow down "unofficial" copying and to generate some funds for the suppliers of TAB That's what was behind the statements:
- Members can then "borrow" TAB for a certain time period. There may be a slight per transaction charge which can be split 2 ways -- some to the original author of the TAB, some to the "curator" of the archive to help defray costs and time
- All members would agree that they would only make a copy for themselves if they so desire. Anyone "caught" distributing copies would be removed from membership. Anyone not returning TABS would likewise get removed from the list.
I approach 2 university libraries with music collections, and both said that they would neither put things on line nor loan them to individuals -- in other words, you would have to physically go to the library to use the material -- not the kind of thing I would be interested in spending time on. |
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Kapila Kane
Ha`aha`a
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2004 : 12:54:06 AM
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So is this to be in the form of physical hard copy and cd's, or a download system from home computers?
It seems like a download system-- somewhat like Keola's on-line slack key might be easier to manage and dispense. Hopefully a little cheaper than Keola's $4.95 per tune, but that depends on the material and accompanying materials (audio and helpful hints?).
Generally I like the idea.
But when you start talking to music lawyers, you can get a lot of "ifs and yea but's". But maybe not--if it's CLEAN AND SIMPLE...just be sure of your legal aspects.
Most of us here would love, use and pay for an accessible source of quality slack key materials.
G |
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marzullo
`Olu`olu
USA
923 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2004 : 01:05:24 AM
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i'm not sure that $5/tab would be unreasonable for some tabs. (the bookkeeping could he hard, though).
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Keith |
Edited by - marzullo on 08/16/2004 01:06:07 AM |
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cpatch
Ahonui
USA
2187 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2004 : 02:26:12 AM
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$5 per tab is definitely not unreasonable it it's a quality arrangement...I've paid up to $20.
As for lending hard copies, I don't think it's realistic from a logistical standpoint...it requires a librarian of some sort to handle those logistics and is also limited in terms of access. A digital library could be completely automated once the tabs have been entered into the library and could even be set up so that tabs that go out are digitally watermarked so they could be traced back to the borrower if copies are made. There are other forms of digital security that could be employed to help deter piracy as well. |
Craig
My goal is to be able to play as well as people think I can. |
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chunky monkey
Ha`aha`a
USA
1022 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2004 : 10:47:40 AM
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| Craig, Do you think it's worth the time to run this by Dennis Kamakahi next week? I've always had pretty good luck getting him to explain how things really work in the Hawaiian Music arena. He seems to know everyone in the business. Also, I'll see Milton Lau at the Waikola Slack Key Festival and I will broach the subject with him. |
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Reid
Ha`aha`a
Andorra
1526 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2004 : 11:31:06 AM
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Folks, this already exists. It is at
http://www.powertabs.net/
They skirt the *detailed* legal issues that occupy us but consider tabbing somebody else's tabs stealing. They say in their FAQ that they are not really concerned with tabbing a *song*, i.e., the Intellectual Property of the original artist. They also require HIGH quality tabs (std. notation correct, etc.,etc.) created with Power Tab, which is free and which I use. (BTW, I make sure the std. notation on tabs I create for myself is correct because then I play it back in PT to see if I have the timing right - PT automatically gives you the right note.) They have *many* people working on the material and they have gazillions of songs. Tabs are downloaded as zipped files that can then be printed.
Even if nobody here wants to go through the effort they require or agrees with their stance on legality, it IS a model. It also shows how much work it requires if you want to create a quality product and distribute it. No way could it work with one "curator" or moderator like Andy. The reason TP works is that we keep it simple and purposely avoid getting into really controversial areas.
Anyway, look it over and get an idea about their operation. They also have links to other tab sites that may or may not operate differently.
...Reid |
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cpatch
Ahonui
USA
2187 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2004 : 12:41:38 PM
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The Powertab Archive's philosophy toward legality can be summed up with this quote from their FAQ:
"If you are really concerned about not breaking the law, don't write guitar tabs at all."
This comes right after they say that converting a book of published tablature to Powertab and posting it to the archive is a "grey area" from a legal standpoint. Sure it is.
While it does provide a model of how this could be done, as Reid points out, it is a fairly complex model and yet still doesn't address legality or include a payment model. Closer to what we're talking about would be something like this:
http://www.g7music.com
Here's a different (but much cooler) approach:
http://www.musicnotes.com/guitarguru |
Craig
My goal is to be able to play as well as people think I can. |
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cpatch
Ahonui
USA
2187 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2004 : 12:42:51 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by chunky monkey
Craig, Do you think it's worth the time to run this by Dennis Kamakahi next week? I've always had pretty good luck getting him to explain how things really work in the Hawaiian Music arena. He seems to know everyone in the business. Also, I'll see Milton Lau at the Waikola Slack Key Festival and I will broach the subject with him.
Sure, I would run it by as many people as possible...regardless of what approach is being discussed, if the artists aren't interested it's a moot point. |
Craig
My goal is to be able to play as well as people think I can. |
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Reid
Ha`aha`a
Andorra
1526 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2004 : 1:15:28 PM
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I don't mean to belabor the point(s), but those sites that Craig and I suggested you look at are all industrial strength places - businesses, in fact (even PT solicits $$). The work required is not trivial, even in the simplest model I can conceive of. And, I come from a 42 year background of system architecture and development, including a very similar system that was developed for the Beinecke Rare Book Library's image database that protects ownership yet allows researchers moderately free and easy access. This is a tough problem for a loosely knit, wide spread group of afficionados. I can think of no way to police IP theft, without really working hard at it; and then it is a crapshoot. The distribution of tab, searching a database, all that kinda stuff is easy. But the rule in the system world is that 90% of the cost of a system is maintenance - and that includes staying within the bounds of being pono.
I guess I am a wet blanket and I hate to be one in this case because the original idea came from the right place: ka pu`uwai.
...Reid
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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2004 : 7:34:27 PM
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I don't find it typically useful to spend a lot of time fanatizing about what is optimally desired. To me starting at a place which is do-able and expanding slowly makes much more sense.
I would think that the easiest way to handle this project is something like this.
Every TAB has 1 archive copy made, and 1 circulating copy. People can get 1 TAB at a time for a 1 week period. People send in a check and TAB request for $2.50 plus post. ($2.00 to artist, $.50 to "curator.) Check gets cashed when your TAB is sent. Sometimes it means you'll have to wait in line. (There would also be an "annual membership fee of something like $15 to cover overhead costs. This way a simple spreadsheet could keep track of "royalties" and who has which TAB, who is waiting for which TAB Once established, shouldn't be more than 15 - 30 minutes MAX a day to maintain.
I know this runs counter to the high tech approach a lot of TP Posters like, but sometimes simple works, while all the bells and whistles make the project nearly insurmountable.
If I hear enough interest in this, I would be happy to speak with Ozzie about this. I would start with Ozzie because I know him -- see if we can get 12 - 15 TABS -- and run it as a pilot project. If it works, then expand at a pace which can be handled by myself or whoever else takes it over. Getting too much material at once can just overwhelm the project.
If I hear enough interest in this, I'll run it by an intellectual property attorney friend to get a decent legal opinion. |
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cpatch
Ahonui
USA
2187 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2004 : 10:47:50 PM
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As long as you have signed permission from the copyright owner of each tab you shouldn't run into any legal problems. You'll probably also need a signed agreement from each member stating what they are and are not allowed to do with the tab they "check out" and that they agree with those conditions.
I'm not a lawyer (and I've never played one on TV) so you should still consult your friend. I'd be interested in participating though. |
Craig
My goal is to be able to play as well as people think I can. |
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Barny Strode
Aloha
United Kingdom
7 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2004 : 10:32:26 AM
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I'm with Raymond on this. Most IT projects (and you can call this a library, repository or whatever you like - it's still an IT project we're discussing)fall on their backsides (or fail to get off the ground high enough to be able to fall) because people always want to design the most technically elegant system possible. Don't forget that today's technical elegance is tomorrow's old hat !!
Decide what you want to do and don't lose sight of that goal.
Here's a thought:
Organisations like Kazaa (and others) allow people to have access to other peoples music and video over the 'Net. Some users charge per download. Couldn't you do this with Tab ? You don't need to create a central repository, all contributors keep their tab on their own PC; I don't know how the funding works, whether some of it goes to "Kazaa" or what; you could have the MP3 file on there as well.
This could be a cheap and cheerful way to get it off the ground, and also open up the music to a much wider audience. |
Regards
Barny
Very East Hawaii (aka England) |
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