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Leonard
Lokahi
USA
124 Posts |
 Posted - 12/09/2004 : 09:32:35 AM
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OK - from following this thread, I think I have a question to suggest for the list:
When I recorded to my computer, first I put the guitar track down. Then I listened to that track as I put the vocal track down. When I played it back, the vocal was behind the guitar. I think this is called "latency". What do I do about it?
I don't need an answer, just suggesting a question that I had when I was trying this at home. |
Be the change that you wish to see in the world. M. Gandhi |
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Lawrence
Ha`aha`a
USA
1597 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2004 : 09:42:18 AM
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Yes - an excellent basic question.
And which will bring up other questions behind it.
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Mahope Kākou...
...El Lorenzo de Ondas Sonoras |
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Reid
Ha`aha`a
Andorra
1526 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2004 : 10:37:18 AM
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OK, Mark. If I am in your target audience, you need to know my goals and restrictions. As the old proverb says, "If you don't know where you are going, any road will take you there". Unfortunately, this will probably be long-winded and lead to many more than just 10 questions.
First, you and Lawrence, and Big Dog, and Fran can tell me and Sarah the "right way to do things." That is, the way professionals do it. But we are not professionals, we are doing recording in our home and then, only once every two or three weeks. So we have logistical problems. We also have artistic preferences that are not like those of professional musicians. These artistic preferences also limit our logistical possibilities.
We prefer live performances that sparkle with emotion. We like the way Sarah's guitar playing and singing sounds in our living room and our bedroom. They are both the same size, are rather large and have similar acoustics (and I know what those are technically, because I've done experiments). The bedroom sounds better and is actually more convenient, because it is nearer to the computer that records the music and farther away from noise sources, and can be sealed off. We have some of the world's best guitars, and Sarah's voice, when she is having a good day, is lovely and lyrical and a rich alto. So, we want those sonic qualities to come through clearly and accurately. For Sarah, it is inconceivable that she play the guitar and sing at separate times; in her mind, everything is of a piece. This means no click tracks. This means no multi-tracking. It also probably means no punch-ins.
We do not like idealized recordings or those that have sounds that don't naturally occur in nature. We don't like even slightly "improved" recordings. One of Dennis Kamakahi's pieces starts out with a guitar introduction of moderate loudness. Then, when he sings, the volume of his voice and guitar together increase, as you would expect. During the pa`ani, the guitar rises in level to equal that of his voice and guitar together. Since the increase in volume is somewhere between 9 and 11 db and the dynamics are that of a normal guitar, I don't believe that he just picked harder. Someone must have been riding the sliders, and it is distracting, because it sounds as if the guitar just jumped forward at you.
Sarah performs best when she is under no pressure, which means, practically, that she does everything herself at her own pace. In our present recording experiments, my only function is to click the start and stop recording buttons and it would be lots better if I weren't present at all. Of course, I do all the postproduction, and right now, that's not much.
So, all this means we need a system that is set up and broken down quickly and easily, and then removed from the bedroom to be hidden away. It also needs to be set up precisely the same every time we (or Sarah alone) record. It doesn't matter whether it is only an instrumental or whether it is a vocal as well. I have two microphones of medium, or better, quality that are not the same, and they must be in the same position every time, because there will be no one else there to tweak the adjustments.
So, how would you construct such a system? What would the physical setup look like? Where would these two mics be to record both guitar and voice accurately, that is, that it would sound as if a live person were singing and playing the guitar in the room when a CD was being played? What would you like the stereo balance to be and how would you achieve that? What would you do to a raw recording after we got one that was a keeper?
Each one of these questions can be decomposed into several sub questions, and I suppose that you can infer what they are. It is also true that I think I've solved some of these problems by experimentation, and I have ideas about how to go about solving others. But I am also certain that some of the answers that I've arrived at are less than optimal and I am completely stymied by other questions. So, how much do you charge for consultation Doctor? Do you take pro bono patients?
... Reid
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Lawrence
Ha`aha`a
USA
1597 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2004 : 5:08:31 PM
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Mark,
quote:
And here I thought this was such a simple request.
But this WAS a simple request !
(you should try a complicated one and see what happens)
It looks like a pretty good potential list is getting started here.
What would you think about editing your first post and adding all the
questions generated so far. This way the folks can see what has
already been covered (if they remember to look at the top).
You might even like to do some rephrasing and rearranging.
Then the list could be sub-itemized, so some of the underlying
questions can be added. Then some answers could be added. Then
the whole thing could be converted to a FAQ (with Andy's help I
imagine) and placed in a "reference area". There are other
recording sites with this sort of arrangement but this would be
more focused toward this group (since it was generated here).
The you could use it as a skeleton to produce an interactive DVD
that is oriented more toward a FAQ/problem solving approach than
much other available stuff.
What do you think...?
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Mahope Kākou...
...El Lorenzo de Ondas Sonoras |
Edited by - Lawrence on 12/09/2004 5:14:59 PM |
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Lawrence
Ha`aha`a
USA
1597 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2004 : 5:44:09 PM
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Reid,
I am going to refrain from giving too many answers to your above
questions, as Mark may want to arrange things first, However I
cannot resist on this one.
quote:
This means no click tracks. This means no multi-tracking
I certainly can understand the reluctance to use click tracks !
Technically though, a stereo recording IS a multitrack. I think
you mean you do not want to do overdubbing, which is adding
more stuff to an already existing recording. Many advantages CAN
be gained by recording more tracks all at once during a take or
live performance. You would think the one track for Sarah's
vocal and another track for the guitar would be enough but you
can gain more flexibily and even a better sound by recording more
tracks than just two.
Right now I am working on some possible commercial recordings
where there are 9 to 11 tracks even though there were only two
performers and only one vocal.
Also, your recording orientation is not that unusual as you
must know since much classical music and some Jazz is recorded
with similar asthetics as yours. I can think of at least one famous
(among audiophiles) pop recording where the peformers recorded in
a church without an audience and using just a stereo pair of mics
placed a respectable distance from the group. This was a group
known as the "Cowboy Junkies" and the recording was called the
"trinity session". John Fahey also liked to record this way when he
had the chance and there are other examples. However this brings up
the archilles heel of this kind of approach: You are totally
dependent upon a having a VERY GOOD recording space and good
conditions around it (no airplanes, dogs, etc). Even if you get
this, there is NO HARM in putting out lots of mics (both close and
far) and MultiTracking the whole thing.
Perhaps Mark & the gang can/will "amplify" some of this shortly.
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Mahope Kākou...
...El Lorenzo de Ondas Sonoras |
Edited by - Lawrence on 12/09/2004 5:46:45 PM |
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hapakid
Luna Ho`omalu
USA
1533 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2004 : 8:28:55 PM
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This is an interesting conversation populated by those of us with a little more than beginners' knowledge. There are some serious techies hanging around who like to expound on the fine points. But as a relative beginner, I think Mark is asking two questions.
1. How do I get a sound into the computer and perhaps add more tracks to create a composition.
2. How do I make it sound good.
The first question is fairly easily answered, the second is complex with dozens of variables.
My first recordings were a tape recorder mike plugged into a portable cassette player. It worked for pure documentation.
My second try was a simple four-track cassette recorder from a pawn shop. Worked okay, but rewinding was tedious, as was dubbing four mediocre tracks down to stereo, plus your finished product was just a cassette.
Third try was recording on my dad's Tascam 788. Better! A cheap SM58 clone mic made me sound more like Robert Goulet than Papa Smurf.
Fourth try is recording through Garageband software using a simple PA mixer to preamp the mics. Worked fine, but the signal/mic/effects path didn't give me that Robert Goulet boom I had before. Unfortunately, it was much more accurate.
All of this is to show that every mic/cable/preamp/effects patch/computer/software combination created completely different recordings, and maybe the only way to tweak and standardize your sound is to have a dedicated studio where stuff doesn't have to be put away to keep your kids from beating on it.
Keep up the conversation. Even the anecdotes are educational.
Jesse Tinsley |
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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2004 : 9:22:27 PM
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Reid,
Might it be worth contacting a pro in your area and buying 2 hours or so of his/her time so that he/she can go to your place and help you get things set up properly -- you can "document" with small tape marks on the floor and a decent set of pictures?
Just a thought. |
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Reid
Ha`aha`a
Andorra
1526 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2004 : 04:01:11 AM
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Lawrence,
Yes, you are absolutely right - I think I meant overdubbing, but I am too new at this to understand what is what in terminology. But, I still don't quite understand how to get more tracks all at once. Do you mean more mics? If so, don't the positioning possibilities/problems go up exponentially? How do I begin to figure out where to place them? And how do I feed all the signals into Audition or Traktion?
I think our bedroom *is* a good recording space. I first thought so when I was recovering from my spine surgery and was in my body cast in bed. Sarah would come up and play and sing for me. Then, recently, I started doing experiments in each of the possible rooms. I made one room, of moderate size, anechoic with foam that we had hanging around, covering all walls, and blankets on all other surfaces. I recorded Sarah in there and it was *awful*. I had no way I could figure out to "restore" the "real" sound.
Then I went back to my physics books that had sections on acoustics. One book gave graphs of sound intensity vs ear response; samples of ranges of various sound sources, a table of absorption coefficients of various materials and equations to caculate reverb times, etc. as well as guidelines for what you would want these equations to produce for a space of a given surface area and volume - with the sum of these absorption areas. The bedroom came out approximately where you would want it to be. I also recorded the room.
As for quietness - we now know what weather, cloud cover, time of day, day of week, etc. is going to be OK for recording. My room and system (with preamp at recording level)on these days has a noise level of between -55 and -60 DBFS with the majority below 200hz. Is that good enough, given that I can take about 40 db out with Audition? I have bass rolloffs on the mics, but I haven't dared use them because the low D and G of Taro Patch and the low C of other tunings are down there near, or in, the rolloffs. I guess I should try them, right?
Raymond, Great Minds Think Alike :-) Although I didn't hire a pro, I have a friend who has done a lot of recording in studios and he gave me some ideas. Our various experimental setups were recorded with Sarah's digital camera (including the present one which is the best so far) and I printed them out as 8x10s on my $99 Epson. And I have a measured and scaled plot/map of the positioning of everything, including Sarah (she is fixed in space by her foot rest and the chair). The mic mounts are locked in place on their KM/AKG tripod stands. The next step (that I haven't done yet) is to mark, with red tape we have, the positions of everything on an old bedsheet. That will be placed with tape marks at the corners of an alcove that lead to our closets. So, each time she records, she will put the sheet down and the stands, chair, and footrest in pretty much the same place (within inches and a few degrees). The problem that we still have is the targeting of the mics. We have found that a small error of angle produces quite noticeable differences. If I am there, that is no problem - I can sight them, but I don't know how to allow her to do it alone. Any ideas? I guess I just have to be there during setup.
One other thing: I bought a $90 Rubbermaid cart, with 2 shelves, from Staples that contains everything. It lives in what I call "my office", where my tower computer lives. When we set up we just wheel it across the hall, put everything in place, and the top shelf serves as a place where Sarah can put her music, earphones, etc. The XLR cables are then run across the house to the preamp under the doors, which get closed. Then, stuff happens. Breakdown means gathering everything up and putting them in their places in the cart which gets rolled back home.
So, as I said, in the post to Mark above, I have some potentially good answers, but I am not sure if there are better ones, and there are still, obviously, questions that need to be answered.
...Reid |
Edited by - Reid on 12/10/2004 04:05:15 AM |
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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2004 : 08:42:55 AM
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Reid -
Very impressive
When I did my CD I went to a studio that came highly recommended from multiple sources -- mic placement there was a problem 'cause I did it over 3 sessions, and I took breaks within sessions -- I was surprised by how much even a small difference (like moving in my seat during a number) made a difference in the final product. I finally decided that perfectionism in recording, just as in performance, is the sworn enemy of artistic expression. (Interesting interview with LAGC in current Acoustic Guitar -- one response on recording process, sounds of clothes rustling and expression.) |
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Lawrence
Ha`aha`a
USA
1597 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2004 : 09:03:24 AM
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Reid,
Since Mark wants questions, and not answers on this thread
(especially not long winded ones) and I do not want to hi-jack the
thread, why don't you start another thread with your particular
inquiries, and I will jump in with some long-winded answers.
...Lawrence
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Mahope Kākou...
...El Lorenzo de Ondas Sonoras |
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Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2004 : 10:33:50 AM
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Reid -
Here's what I have gleaned from your posts. Am I close?
1) How do I record voice and guitar at the same time? (Two you didn't ask, but might consider: How do I keep the two tracks from interfering with each other? How do I handle panning, EQ, etc for the most "natural" sound? And, perhaps, What's panning? How do I use EQ?)
2) What's muti-track recording? Should I record with more than 2 mics?
3) How do we "fix" the basic recording? (I think that's the issue, since you believe you cannot overdub or punch in without click tracks... you can, by the way. Another question I imagine you might be asking about now: What's punching-in?)
4) How do I preserve a relaxed feel?
5) How do we insure a consistant sound from day to day?
6) How do I record with two different mics? Are they the "right" mics? How do I know if they are in the "right" place? Can I simply measure the sweet spot and spot them each time for consistancy?
7) Why do commercial recordings appear to change levels? How can I avoid a "processed sound" and still make a recording that translates well to a variety of listening environments? What's the difference between a recording intended for sale/commercial distribution and a home recording? Why don't /can't more commercial labels make recordings that sound "natural"?
8) What is the relationship between the noise floor and a successful recording? How much noise is acceptable?
9)How do I deal with noise without affecting the sound of the instrument/voice?
10) What exactly is it that a microphone "hears"? How does that affect the overall sound? How is it different from the way my ears hear? What is the relationship between specifications and the actual "sound"?
11) What is the influence on room acoustics on a finished recording? How do I capture the sound of the room? (And, alternately: How do I compensate for the sound of the room?)
12) Another one you didn't ask, but might consider: How do I create a "natural" ambience in the finished recording?
13) What is my role as engineer/producer in a home recording session?
I'm sure there are more, but these are the ones that lept out at me. I may be off base, but that's how I read your posts... again, close???
Lawrence -- good idea. Let's use this as a start after I hear back from Reid.
Mark-o
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Reid
Ha`aha`a
Andorra
1526 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2004 : 3:23:49 PM
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Oh Mark,
I worried that my brain was answering more questions than I was asking - and that is bad for me, because I know I don't know much, and I need help, even though I know I can figure out some suboptimal solution to any problem. However, you have just about nailed everything right on.
Just to tune up, however:
I want the two stereo channel/tracks to "bleed" because that is what my ears hear live. I know what panning is. I know what a punch-in is. I know how Chet used it (because I have confidential sources :-)and I can detect one on one of Dennis's recordings.
Everything else is wonderful, and I would salaam at your toes, Effendi, if I could have the answers.
Now, tune in to a different channel to hear answers to questions you never asked...
Ready Lawrence? ( how about appending to Big Dawgs's thread about answers - if you don't mind Big Dawg - please tell me before we do that).
Up, up and away...
...Reid
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Lawrence
Ha`aha`a
USA
1597 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2004 : 5:08:24 PM
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Reid,
quote:
Ready Lawrence? ( how about appending to Big Dawgs's thread about answers - if you don't mind Big Dawg - please tell me before we do that).
Do you mean take Dr.Dawg's post and add text to his treatise?
I cannot edit Big Ilio's posts directly, but I could copy them
and then paste and add, but this would not directly address your
questions. This could also get messy, if each contributor had
to copy then add text and then paste an ever-growing mass of
"textural" proportions.
Twould be better shouldst I copy your last posts, gainly insert
my righteous ramblings perforth, upon whence I wouldst thrust them
crabwise unto yet anon post.
Since you are the "Computer Scientist" Reid, how would you use this
Snitz Forum to construct a "co-operative FAQ" where (as a single
thread) you could have a series of questions and folks could
chime in with answers that were organized below each question?
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Mahope Kākou...
...El Lorenzo de Ondas Sonoras |
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Reid
Ha`aha`a
Andorra
1526 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2004 : 07:14:02 AM
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Mark,
Just a clarification - although I know what a punch-in is, I don't know how to do it properly - so the "how" question again. More specifically, it is loads of work to find the exact, proper places for the insertion (whic I can do, tediously, and, then, the most trouble is balancing the loudness of the original and the punched in portions. If I do a group (RMS) normalize on the 2 portions/tracks, the sound gets muddy and the dynamic range goes down.
Lawrence, I merely wanted all this stuff in one place. You know that in a month or two, someone is going to want to know all this stuff and won't be able to find it. It might be simplest to make Andy do the work :-) and create a recording topic/section and then move every word ever written on the subject into it. Gawd! Poor Andy. As for a cooperative FAQ, the way it is usually done in newsgroups is that there is a downloadable Word doc stored somewhere, downloded and the master doc is locked until returned, the FAQ is added to, the version number is increased, the doc uploaded and unlocked, and, periodically, the new version is posted to the newsgroup and prior versions deleted. OTW, you are in Lotus Notes World, or something worse. As you pointed out, right now, only the originator or admin can edit a Snitz posting
...Reid |
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Reid
Ha`aha`a
Andorra
1526 Posts |
Posted - 01/02/2005 : 11:01:39 AM
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OK, I might have hijacked Mark's thread, but it has the *right* title and maybe folks who are looking for info on this topic will look here first.
I realized that a big part of my problem (not the only one) with understanding recording is that I did not understand the vocabulary and definitions. So, I searched all over and found something that I found was really useful. A glossary FAQ. Although it concerns mostly stereo gear, it also applies to guitars and sound recordings. Pay particular attention to item 9.14.
The URL is:
http://www.audioweb.com/AudioFAQ/Default.asp?faq=2
However, there is still some slop in the definitions. For instance, they say hi mids are in the 3-6kz range (it may be all-inclusive), but I have other definitions that say 1.5 khz, 4-5 khz, and some others. This may be because they are mostly dealing with speakers, and if anybody has a tighter def. of any of the entries for guitar and voice, I would be happy to have them here. (BTW, web pages have the lifetime of a Mayfly (used to be 2 weeks on average), so I am downloading this permanently. Think about it if it is useful to you.
...Reid |
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