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cgriffin
Aloha
USA
25 Posts |
 Posted - 08/08/2002 : 12:04:03 PM
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Hello Guitarrists,
I'm starting to learn to play slack key, and I'm playing on my classical guitar. It's a really nice instrument, a hand made Asturias guitar which I used to play classical/flamenco on. It sounds great with a very deep resonant bass, but the trebles are a little muffled. It has a deep rich red cedar top, and I'm not sure if the sides and back are solid or laminate rosewood.
A few years after buying this guitar I noticed that the bass was quite powerful and the treble a little more mellow, so I just chalked it up to not knowing exactly what I would eventually want before I learned to play. I think I'd prefer an instrument with more balance between bass & treble, but I've been playing for enough years that I can compensate with my playing. I really love my guitar, it was my very first meditation teacher! I'm happy that after years of leaving it in the closet I've found some exciting new music to play on it.
My question relates to using traditional nylon classical guitar strings in alternate tunings. It seems to me that the strings sound best when tuned to the Standard EADGBE tuning, and when it's perfectly in tune it produces a very noticable overtone series. I'm not sure if this is due to the guitar or strings. When I tune the strings down, say to G-double slack, I don't get the same overtones. I'm wondering if any of the following reasons can be the cause of this:
* Maybe these nylon strings are engineered to sound best at a specific tension, the one corresponding to standard tuning.
* Could it be that the guitar, tuned to EADGBE for years, needs a while to learn how to resonate in a different tuning?
* Perhaps this guitar just doesn't sound as good if it's not in EADGBE?
Now let me be honest, it still sounds great, but I tend to be a perfectionist and I like to understand every little thing about the music and instrument I'm playing. So I wanted to get some other opinions on this.
When I change the strings next, I'll get some high-tension heavy guage strings as Keola recommends.
Another question: Will the guitar sound best if I leave it in one tuning family (such as Taro-patch/G-double-slack)? I've given up on moving it back and forth between slack tunings and Standard. Yet it seems that some tunings are not that different from standards - like C Wahini; so wouldn't moving it around between different slack tunings be more or less the same as going from Taro-patch to Standard back and forth?
Mahalo!
Chris
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Chris Griffin
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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 08/08/2002 : 12:52:16 PM
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Aloha Chris,
I've been playing slack key for about 3 years on my classical guitars, so I can share my experience, also including some advice Ozzie Kotani, who also plays on classical, gave me. I can't address the technical levels you want -- I would check in with a good luthier.
I found the type of strings makes a huge difference. I've tried every brand of classical nylon string I could find. My best guitar sounds best with Hense, high tension, carbon trebles. Noticably better than Hannebach. My cheap guitars sounded as good as they could on either Hense or Hannebach -- however, I recently got a few samples of Dean Markley's new classical strings (less than half the price of the above) and I couldn't hear much difference on my cheaper guitars. Markley's didn't come up to snuff on the good one. At any rate, you will need "High Tension" nylon strings.
As you found out -- it is next to impossible to keep changing tunings on the nylon strings. My solution was to keep an eye on the "Want Ads" in our paper and the resale sactions of our guitar stores and get a decent affordable back up or two for other tunings. When I play a gig I usually take 2 guitars with me.
If you're guitar's action is set for flammencco, you will probably have a tough time with slacking down. The action is just too low. I took my guitar to a luthier, spent some time with him watching me play -- now he's got my parameters on file and when I get a new instrument or ned a tune up - he gets it right in the "sweet zone."
In my experience, taking it down more than 1.5 steps starts getting very dicey -- strings get flabby, overtones messed up. But you can get some excuisite sounds in Taro Patch, and Taro Patch lowered down to open F. I'm going to start working on a D tuning later this year, so I haven't had experience down there yet. Ozzie told me with high tension strings and proper adjustment of the action you can get a good sound on C Wahine and C Maunaloa.
And, as you know, while we can't bend our strings like those "steel guys," and harmonics may be a bit more challenging -- we classical guitars players have an almost infinitie palate of tones. I almost never play steel 'cause the sound doesn't come anywhere near as close.
Welcome to slack key
Malama Pono
Raymond
San Jose, CA
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cgriffin
Aloha
USA
25 Posts |
Posted - 08/08/2002 : 1:29:11 PM
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I fully agree with you on this count, I find that the classical training I received has allowed me to get a much more subtle sound out of the guitar, and it is much more expressive than any steel string guitar I've played yet.
However, I am excited about some really nice Parlor guitars I've played recently! I'd love to have one of those!
Learning slack-key is a bit of a brain-twister for me because I've got the standard tuning so stuck in my mind, but it is also really liberating to be able to press just a few notes and make such beautiful music!
Best,
Chris
quote:
And, as you know, while we can't bend our strings like those "steel guys," and harmonics may be a bit more challenging -- we classical guitars players have an almost infinitie palate of tones. I almost never play steel 'cause the sound doesn't come anywhere near as close.
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Chris Griffin
Edited by - cgriffin on 08/08/2002 13:43:28 |
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Pauline Leland
`Olu`olu
USA
783 Posts |
Posted - 08/08/2002 : 1:46:08 PM
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Hi Chris,
I like to use nylon string guitars for slack key as well, and I've noticed the 6th string isn't always the happiest when tuned down, but other strings seem OK. I previously used light to medium tension strings and am still working on my pre-slack key stash. I did put high-tension strings on the Cordoba recently, and they sound better than normal tension on a better guitar. They are also very inexpensive from www.WebStrings.com. My ears aren't tin, but they are not ultra-refined; for instance, I'm happy with tuning using an electronic tuner.
Strong bass and relatively weaker trebles is the norm in lower priced classical guitars, or so I've heard. I have an old, no-name, all laminated, beater folk guitar (nylon strings, classical shape, fret markers) and the trebles are much weaker than the basses. Less so with the Cordoba (lam b/s) but the basses still predominate.
I'm always experimenting with strings. The folk guitar now has a set of John Pearse Folk Series on it and the trebles seem louder than the basses! The series has Thomastik-Infeld Classic S trebles which are low tension steel core strings wrapped with nylon tape. The sound is somewhere between nylon and steel. Yes, they are steel, but steel meant for classical guitars and with extremely low tensions. The basses are the usual nylon floss wrapped with silver-plated wire.
I've wondered how slack key would sound on a baritone guitar for those with long fingers to handle the longer stretches.
BTW, have you noticed an oddity when you switch from EADGBE to a slack key tuning, especially with new strings? The unslacked strings will go flat as usual; I've always thought it was due to the string relaxing, yielding to the unfamiliar tension of being on a guitar. But the slacked strings go sharp, unheard of! Even fairly new strings want to return to where they were. I saw a post about this on a CG forum along with some really lame attempts to explain it, so it's not just me.
Pauline |
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cgriffin
Aloha
USA
25 Posts |
Posted - 08/08/2002 : 2:31:05 PM
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Hi Pauline,
My guitar is still infinitely better than a cheap 200-300$ laminated plywood guitar. And even within the world of solid-top guitars, it seems to sound better than any $1500 instrument you could buy new today. I think that the deep resonant bass has deveoped over time. Perhaps if I get the high-tension strings it will help the treble to come out more. It has a very soft mellow sound compared to some classical guitars. I thought of selling it once, and a good friend got really emphatic with me and told me not to. I'm sure happy that I listened to him!
As for the strings not staying in tune - there are two phenomena going on:
1. When you lower the tension of one string, this will slightly change the tone that all 5 other strings are making. That is because there is a certain "pull" created by the neck, and it is balanced by the pull of all 6 strings. When you decrease the tension of one string, this changes the overall pull of all 6 strings, and the other strings have to absorb more of the pull of the neck. This can cause one of the other strings to slip noticably out of tune.
An extreme example is where one string breaks and then the other strings sound all funny. I've noticed this happen a lot on a smaller scale as my ear is really sensitive to anything that sounds discordant. I even have friends who are professional musicians who are less picky about this than I am! Hopefully playing Slack-key will help me relax and balance out my type A personality.
2. The second phonomenon, which explains what you noticed, is that the tension in the string doesn't just exist inbetween the bridge and the nut: there is also tension in the part of the string which is wound around the tuning peg. However, when you adjust the tuning peg, the tension in the string wrapped around it does not instantanously equalize itself with the new tension in the string, it happens as you play the string. That's why it can be helpful to tug on the string a bit after you do a "down-tuning", and you'll have to come back and fine-tune it a while after you tune it up.
My theory is that this effect can be minimized by making sure there is not too many loops around the tuning peg. I think that 3-4 loops around can be sufficient (if you tie the string somehow).
3. It may also be true that strings "learn" to be at a certain tension and gravitate back towards it. I can see nylon doing this much more easily than steel. I don't know if it really happens with guitar strings, but I've noticed that it definitely happens with drum heads (I play tabla and mridang too).
Best,
Chris
quote:
Hi Chris,
...
Strong bass and relatively weaker trebles is the norm in lower priced classical guitars, or so I've heard.
...
BTW, have you noticed an oddity when you switch from EADGBE to a slack key tuning, especially with new strings? The unslacked strings will go flat as usual; I've always thought it was due to the string relaxing, yielding to the unfamiliar tension of being on a guitar. But the slacked strings go sharp, unheard of! Even fairly new strings want to return to where they were. I saw a post about this on a CG forum along with some really lame attempts to explain it, so it's not just me.
Pauline
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Chris Griffin
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Pauline Leland
`Olu`olu
USA
783 Posts |
Posted - 08/08/2002 : 2:59:59 PM
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Hi Chris,
I wasn't knocking your guitar  , just commenting that getting everything balanced is hard to do, even in nice factory guitars like mine. Well, I think it's nice, I like it.
I think #3 describes the out-of-tuning best. New strings a few days old will all go flat over night. If they were in standard and I tune them to Taro Patch, the unslacked strings go flat overnight and the slacked strings go sharp overnight. I have minimal wraps on the tuning pegs, so the cause must be elsewhere. I imagine a materials scientist might be able to explain it after some study but who's going to pay for that, so it still remains an oddity.
You play what kind of drums? I admit I've never heard of them. Do you pound them with your fingers/hands or with drum sticks, are they big or little, do you have to tune them ?
Pauline |
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Fran Guidry
Ha`aha`a
USA
1579 Posts |
Posted - 08/08/2002 : 3:23:22 PM
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quote:
I've wondered how slack key would sound on a baritone guitar for those with long fingers to handle the longer stretches.
Pauline, I have a clip from our Jam in July guitar party where I played slack key on a Santa Cruz Brozman baritone. Go here:
http://www.fxguidry.com/jaminjuly/page4.htm
and look for "Waialua Slack Key" about half-way down the page. It was recorded on a Sharp minidisc through an inexpensive mic, but you can get some idea. I enjoyed playing the Brozman even though the string spacing at the bridge was more narrow than I prefer. It is a pretty short baritone so the stretches between frets were not excessive. My fingers definitely aren't long. I like playing on loose strings, and these were pretty sloppy - makes it easy to get a relaxed vibrato.
Fran
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Pauline Leland
`Olu`olu
USA
783 Posts |
Posted - 08/08/2002 : 3:37:08 PM
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Hi Fran,
Good, you put the music links up. I'm downloading the baritone right now.
I see you have one for a tenor uke. Is that one of the ukes you recently bought? I'll have to listen there, too.
Pauline
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The baritone sounds right at home on slack key.
Kevin Ko showed off his guitar nicely, as well, even tho he was a little too far from the mic.
Edited by - Pauline Leland on 08/08/2002 16:22:12 |
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cgriffin
Aloha
USA
25 Posts |
Posted - 08/08/2002 : 4:45:40 PM
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Tabla and Mridang are both Indian drums played with the hands.
Indian percussion is to Afro-Cuban type hand drumming as finger-picking is to strumming. It's really amazing stuff which can give incredible depth, subtlety and rythmic complexity. Not that I'm that great, but I've enjoyed it so far ;-)
Here are some links to a site where you can check out the types of drums I play:
http://www.aacm.org/shop/tabla.html
http://www.aacm.org/shop/product43.html
The drum I really play is the Mridangam, the second one. It's much easier than Tabla. I mainly play to accompany chant. I think it's the most ecstatic type of music I've ever played, very similar to Kihoalu.
Yes, they do need to be tuned. I tune my Mridang by turning the screws to tighten/loosen the head. For the tabla, it's a bit trickier, it requires that the large round wooden cylinders be hammered either upward (to loosen) or downward (to tighten the head). Tuning it is a lot of fun, and I've found that most amateur drummers don't even bother, they'll just play it out of tune. But, just like a guitar, a drum kept in tune will literally absorb the vibrations of the tones and develop beautiful overtones within those same frequencies and their harmonics.
Chris
quote:
You play what kind of drums? I admit I've never heard of them. Do you pound them with your fingers/hands or with drum sticks, are they big or little, do you have to tune them ?
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Chris Griffin
Edited by - cgriffin on 08/08/2002 16:54:35 |
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Pauline Leland
`Olu`olu
USA
783 Posts |
Posted - 08/08/2002 : 5:06:03 PM
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Chris, thanks. The world of music is so large, there is so much to explore in it. Even drums, I think of rhythm and drumming as the basis of all music, come in such a varity of sizes, sounds, playing methods. If the basics are that complex, no wonder the derivatives are.
Pauline
Edited by - Pauline Leland on 08/08/2002 17:08:48 |
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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 08/09/2002 : 02:03:59 AM
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As to nylon strings and retuning:
Nylon is a material which has a "memory" I remember an old high school experiement whereby we shaped different types of plastic, warmed them and they returned to their original shapes. I remember doing that, but I can't remember why.
My experience, and every one else I spoke with about this is: once you get the nylon strings in tune -- don't change tunings. If you don't change tunings all you got to worry about is temperature, humidity, and aging (that's all!) change tunings and you're in for days of fiddling around. If I'm going to fiddle, it will be on a violin.
As to number of times you wrap around the tuning peg -- I find that if Igive the strings a nice tug at about 12 fret, number of wraps doesn't matter.
I tried the Thomastik-Infeld strings -- wish I could get me $12 back. Even cheap d'Addario sounded better.
For a good guitar, you owe it to yourself to try Hense and Hannebach.
Worth every penny, in my opinion.
Raymond
San Jose, CA
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cgriffin
Aloha
USA
25 Posts |
Posted - 08/09/2002 : 10:42:43 AM
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Thanks Raymond,
After hearing the great advice here, I think I'll trust my intuition and keep my guitar in Taro Patch (with an occasional slack on the third string for G-double-slack) while I learn.
Mahalo!
Chris
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Chris Griffin
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n/a
deleted
1 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2002 : 12:28:39 AM
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Hey Chris, and Pauline...
I too am new to this forum, but you've commented on an area I am pretty well experienced in.
Yes, there are many reasons for nylon strings going whacko when changing tunings. HOWEVER !!! when you've had your strings in standard tuning, dont even bother slacking down, replace all the strings. In a nutshell, nylon, and silk/nylon in the basses will hold 'memory'. That is to say the strings contract very slightly as they age. If the guitar is left 'in tune' then the stretching available to them when tuning up before playing isnt enough to stretch the 'memory'. As you noted, this is most apparent when having a higher tension IE standard tuning, then tuning down to a lower tension, say open G. You initially tune em up to pitch, but they will attempt to contract to the previous tensile memory from having been tuned to standard, IE, the slacked strings go sharp. This is an inherent property of many polymers, and even natural 'gut' strings.
Best defense for me seems to be a good offense, new strings for the tuning. Incidentally, a good way to stretch those pesky nylons is in fact to tune em up to standard, if your going to be using slack key tunings. Play or strum and stretch for 5 or ten minutes, then tune down to wherever you want. Just dont leave em tuned up standard for a couple of days or..........well you know.
Happy playing to everyone in this forum....
Mike
cmdrpiffle |
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Pauline Leland
`Olu`olu
USA
783 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2002 : 02:30:35 AM
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Hi Mike,
Welcome.
As for changing tunings, while the slacked keys go sharp, the unslacked keys go flat! My problem is whims, whimsy?, where I suddenly want to try something that's in classic tuning, then later go back to Taro Patch, and the poor strings don't know how to misbehave, but they manage, they manage.
Maybe if my whims were predictable and my impatience to try out whatever caught my fancy less strong, I could follow your advice. As it is, new strings every day or so is not too practical. I can't even manage to reserve one guitar for classic tuning. Right now I have all 4 in Taro patch. And I tune a lot.
Pauline |
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