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Lawrence
Ha`aha`a
USA
1597 Posts |
 Posted - 02/23/2005 : 07:27:40 AM
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Just thought I would start this thread so folks can list mics that they have been happy using. Of course, you can list the ones to avoid here too. Some folks will be interested in the less expensive ones (like hapakid), while others may want to know about moderately priced ones (more in my comfort zone). Nothing wrong with listing the expensive ones too. The main idea is for folks to get an idea of what some of these mics are like. I will list a few later on.
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Mahope Kākou...
...El Lorenzo de Ondas Sonoras |
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Darin
Lokahi
USA
294 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2005 : 07:49:46 AM
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| Also, can folks recommend a favorite male/female vocal large diaphram condenser mic under $2000? |
Darin
http://www.hawaiiguitar.com/ |
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Fran Guidry
Ha`aha`a
USA
1579 Posts |
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Lawrence
Ha`aha`a
USA
1597 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2005 : 08:18:18 AM
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dl584;
The Neumann TLM103 gets good reviews in this category. It exhibits the lowest noise of any Mic that Neumann makes, which for me, is one of the most important criteria. It has better response that some of the more famous and expensive Neumanns. The biggest drawback is that it is cardiod only so don't work too close to it and use a pop screen between the vocalist and the mic. (Not working too close and using a pop screen are standard for vocals anyway). I got mine for less than $1000. It is also an excellent mic for mid-range instruments like an Uke or a Flute. Like a lot of large diameter condensers, it has a "presence rise" of about 4 db starting at around 3K and then running flat out to 18K or so. This means is will impart an "edge" to the vocal sound as many of these kind of mics do. You can easily remove this edge by reverse-eq in the software and when you do that you will get even lower noise. I am quite comfortable with post processing EQ in this manner, in fact nearly all mics need some EQ adjustment (very few are completly flat).
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Mahope Kākou...
...El Lorenzo de Ondas Sonoras |
Edited by - Lawrence on 02/23/2005 08:43:52 AM |
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Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2005 : 10:33:08 AM
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quote:
Also, can folks recommend a favorite male/female vocal large diaphram condenser mic under $2000?
Well, you do realize that you want two mics, don't you?
Seriously, generally speaking male and female voices are very different (Michael Jackson's speaking voice notwithstanding) , and what works for, say, a baritone with a bit of nose and some interesting pitch qualifications (he said, describing his own voice) may not cut it for a Bel Canto Colortura Soprano with a heavy dose of attitude.
That being said: I love the Beyer MC834 for the afore mentioned baritone. Bought it years ago after doing an A-B comparison against several mics we had in the closet at the studio I was working at, including a couple Nueman U87s and some vintage AKG 414s and I don't recall what else. The U87 sounded best on the, ahem, chick singer in the tests, the Beyer on the baritone.
If you are looking to record specific singers -- as in most home studios - I'd suggest setting up some demo time with yourself and the singers of choice at a local pro audio dealer or studio and listening, hard. You might be surprised at what you choose -- as I was with the MC834.
Otherwise, if you want a good all-around vocal mic, the TLM 103 is a solid choice. I'm also a huge fan of the Blue mics -- in particular the Mouse. It was designed for voice-over work, but I really liked what I heard on my voice -- and on my guitar. Coupled with a good mic pre, it's amazing.
The Blueberry is also a good guitar-vocal choice for some singers and some guitars.
cheers,
Mark |
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Reid
Ha`aha`a
Andorra
1526 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2005 : 1:27:41 PM
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It would be really helpful if those of you in the know would select "best buys" for us in various price ranges.
Personally, I understand pefectly that the mechanical to electronic (and vice-versa) transducers are the most important part(because difficult to create properly) of any sound system (like speakers and mics), and I would early love to buy a multi K$$$ Neumann. But, it is just not in the cards.
I have also noted that there are *street price* price point plateaus (plateaux?) and sweet spots in every item I have ever wanted to purchase. There is usually an "80-20 rule" where you get 80% of the functionality at 20% of the price, or whatever.
So, I have been hawking all the web info and there appears to be a price break at around $300, another around $1000 , another around $1500-2000, and probably others in between that I did not notice.
So, as a public service, could you supply a selection (opinionated , please and tell us why, briefly) at each price point that you know about?
I have 2 mics (1 each mid and large diaphragm condensers) and I know why I bought them and I know how they behave, but I won't say anything about them because I am not as qualified as most of you to recommend anything in this area.
...Reid
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`Ilio Nui
`Olu`olu
USA
826 Posts |
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Lawrence
Ha`aha`a
USA
1597 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2005 : 4:24:08 PM
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I would think that the "AKC" C1000 is a "DOG" of a mic! 
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Mahope Kākou...
...El Lorenzo de Ondas Sonoras |
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hapakid
Luna Ho`omalu
USA
1533 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2005 : 4:55:25 PM
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I appreciate the specifics here, but I'm also interested in generalities.
Twin mic arrays for recording guitars have been discussed endlessly (and way over my head mathematically) in other threads, but would you use a single, large diaphragm condenser mic alone as your vocal mic? Do you usually orient the mic so your voice is hitting it broadside to the diaphragm? Does the singer need to be a certain distance away to prevent damaging a diaphragm from a peak of vocal volume? What is the usual distance from the mic for the voice? And how is the mic usually placed in relation to the singer? Is a shock mount critical?
Sorry for all the questions! I'm just trying to get my mind around this whole mic thing. Mahalo!
Jesse Tinsley |
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Lawrence
Ha`aha`a
USA
1597 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2005 : 5:31:51 PM
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Jesse,
quote:
Twin mic arrays for recording guitars have been discussed endlessly (and way over my head mathematically) in other threads.
Actually, just think of these "twin arrays" as a stereo recording. I am presently working on a recording that use THREE mics plus the built-in pickup for a total of 4 channels per instrument.
quote:
, but would you use a single, large diaphragm condenser mic alone as your vocal mic?
That same recording with so many tracks per instrument, uses just ONE vocal track/mic. I could see the possibility of recording the vocal as stereo (2 mics) for an interesting mix, expecially it the singer has an asymmetric way of singing (but I have never done it).
quote:
Do you usually orient the mic so your voice is hitting it broadside to the diaphragm?
Yes- with a pop screen in between. quote:
Does the singer need to be a certain distance away to prevent damaging a diaphragm from a peak of vocal volume?
Yes- 8 to 12 inches unless you have a great sounding room that you want to include (but that can be added later). The distance is not to prevent damage so much as to preserve a good sound and limit the "plosives". But for that really sexy voice the singer moves very close and does not sing loud and is careful with the "p's" and "t's". You can have the singer direct the souund slightly to the side of the mic to cut down on plosives too. Some older condensers a long time ago could be damaged, but mics like the TLM103 can work up to levels of 130db or so and the damage level must be well above that. (120db is threshold of pain).
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And how is the mic usually placed in relation to the singer? [\quote] [quote] Is a shock mount critical?
Some of these large diameter condensors have very very good low frequency response and will pick up the rumble of the nearby freeway or road through conduction from the ground. You can choose to roll off the lows while recording or use a shock mount or both.
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Mahope Kākou...
...El Lorenzo de Ondas Sonoras |
Edited by - Lawrence on 02/23/2005 5:35:20 PM |
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`Ilio Nui
`Olu`olu
USA
826 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2005 : 6:06:49 PM
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Lawrence,
You just need big "woofers" to listen back.
Dawg |
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hapakid
Luna Ho`omalu
USA
1533 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2005 : 7:14:26 PM
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Mahalo again, Lawrence. Both you and Slack Dog (and Reid, jwn and others) have really helped give me an idea of a what a small studio consists of and what it should look like, even if I can't afford it.
Most of us are only recording for fun and to share with friends, so I don't think we'll boost the sales of $1500 mics and $2000 preamps by jawing about it. But the knowledge is good and it will help me use my cheap stuff better. And it gives me something to save my pennies for beside more stringed instruments.
Jesse Tinsley |
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Reid
Ha`aha`a
Andorra
1526 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2005 : 04:04:36 AM
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OK, Dave, I'll say what I have and why, but remember that this is a combo of pure consumer research, a bit of tech analyisis, some help from my friends, and subjective asessment of Sarah's and my experience.
First,I bought an AKG C3000B large dia. (1") condenser, for about $300; it is cardioid only. It comes with a very nice spider shock mount and it needs it. It really makes Sarah's voice sound realistic. As Lawrence said, it is 12 inches from Sarah's mouth (when we use it for her vocals) and she sings across the top 1/3 of it. No pop screen, because she hasn't needed it. We have used it on the guitar with less success because of some of its other behavior. Mark, has called it a "poor man's C414" and that is ok with me, because I am poor, and getting poorer.
The other mic we have is an AudioTechnica AE 5100 mid diameter (about 1/2") cardioid *condenser*. It is *not* a dynamic mic although AT's nomenclature confuses this. It is a competitor of the AKG C1000, and I bought it for about $200. The reason I chose it was because the gearheads on rec.audio.pro always dissed the C1000 as "harsh" and *always* suggested the AE5100 as a better choice as more "natural". Especially a gearhead guitarist named Ty Ford, whose posts on several groups were always very sensible and confirmed by other netizens. It was also cheaper than the C1000 by about $50 - $75. It comes with a simple mount and is tube shaped. It isn't harsh and is quite natural sounding, as predicted.
The C3000B is more sensitive with lower self-noise than the AE5100 mic. About 2 or 3 db less noise and about 5-6 db more signal at the same preamp setting. I can take the noise out with Audition 1.5 easily. The AE5100 is more directional (more off-axis rejection) than the C3000B, even though their test diagrams are identical. When you point the AE5100 at Sarah's mouth, you can only hear a bit of the guitar and when you point it at the guitar, you can only hear a bit of Sarah's voice. This is good, real good. The C3000B, on the other hand, picks up lots of sound off axis and is giving me fits with that "bleed".
Since Sarah sings about 6-10 db (depending on frequency) louder than she plays, we are using the AE5100 on her vocal and the C3000B pointed at the guitar's 14th fret (also about 12" away) - I still have to figure out how to deal with having both signal sources on that channel/track.
My plan is to use a combination of suggestions of Mark and Lawrence: use a pickup as a third source and the C3000B as a mono combo of both - go with the flow.
The pickup is a Baggs M1. I bought that because a friend has one and it sounds very good, AND I can switch it (with some problems I can discuss elsewhere) between whatever guitar we want to use.
How do I get more signals into my Echo Gina3G?
I blame you Dave and you Lawrence and you Jesse :-) for making my acquisitive juices flowing. Yesterday I bought a Mackie 1202 VLZ Pro mixer for $300 ($10 S&H), so I will have 4 preamps and lots of other inputs that I can mix down into 2 channels to feed Gina.
We will see how it goes. We are still experimenting and still learning. Some potential problems have trickled into my brain and that is why I asked you, Lawrence, what you did with your mixer. I will try the M1 with the Baggs PADI between it and the mixer but I don't now how the chain of preamps will interact, if at all and the mics will go into the mixer pres and then all will go into the Gina - I will try its preamps and then try just balanced lines in, but I am not sure that the line-ins bypass the Gina pres, because Gina has a funny "universal" input design.
This is really complicated.
...Reid |
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`Ilio Nui
`Olu`olu
USA
826 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2005 : 07:18:50 AM
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Reid,
And you said you weren't an expert. Expertise comes from all the A/Bing and critical analysis you just described. Good job.
Singing across the top 1/3 of the C-3000 is exactly correct. Good boy for reading their documentation. This works well for most large diaphragm mics on vocals. I'm not surprised that it captures Sarah's vocal well
I am not at all familiar with the AE 5100, but I believe what you have to say. Yes, the C-1000 can be a little harsh. The bottom line is that you like the sound you get with each mic, but you'd like to solve the "bleed" problem. Is it really a problem? To me the biggest problem is when you start editing and tweaking the sound source (vocal, guitar) and the other sound gets in the way. That's why your setup is so critical, so you limit the tweaking later. I have a couple things you might try.
1) Is there any reason that Sarah can't overdub the vocals? Now that you have the Mackie 1202 (great grab) you can turn off the monitors and route the signal to headphones. Then she can listen to her guitar work and just sing (headphone volume can also be a bleed problem). It's rare when I don't record that way.
2) You can A/B the C-3000. There are three switches on the mic; cardioid to hypercardioid, bass roll-off, and -10dB pad. At the extreme end, put it in hypercardioid, roll the bass off and move the mic a little closer. The proximity effect will make up for the roll-off, but you might need to have a windscreen (a pair of nylons stretched across an embroidery hoop is cheap and works fantastically).You will also notice an increase in off-axis rejection. The -10dB pad is also an option, but this is usually for loud sound sources. The biggest problem now is you may not like the way the vocals sound.
If you try #1, then this frees you up to double mic the guitar. I would start with the AE-5100 aimed at the middle of the lower bout, 8 to 15 inches away (it's your call on where it sounds best). Never aim the mic directly at the puka. The sound comes from the top not the hole. Put the C-3000 about 8 to 10 inches above the 12th fret and aim it at the junction of the neck and body. Remember, these are just starting points.
If you try #2, the AE-5100 is the same as above.
As you suggested, let's let Lawrence answer the "electronic" stuff. But here's my thought on "direct" recording. A lot of the sound we like in Slack Key recordings is that direct sound, an electric edge. I also like to have a direct feed because the bass is usually crisp, unlike the mic side, so I use it to bring up the bass without getting muddy. I'll take the signal, put a low-pass filter on it and pretty much wipe out the mid and treble. It's always good to have as much information as you can when you record and the direct track is just more info.
Yes, it's "really complicated" but it sure is fun (most of the time)
All the best,
Dave |
Edited by - `Ilio Nui on 02/24/2005 07:22:27 AM |
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cpatch
Ahonui
USA
2187 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2005 : 07:28:12 AM
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| On the low end of the price range ($200), the audio-technica AT3035 has received excellent reviews as a budget condenser for vocal and instrument recording. It's what I use for spoken voice recording at godcast.org and I love it. |
Craig
My goal is to be able to play as well as people think I can. |
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Reid
Ha`aha`a
Andorra
1526 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2005 : 08:25:12 AM
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Dave,
We don't really have any problems anymore when Sarah plays an instrumental - guitar alone. And we do just as you suggested, approximately, with mic placement.
What we are battling with, and *this* is what I have been referring to above, is the songs she sings and plays at the same time. Sarah really shines at this and loves it to death, so vocals with guitar are about 2/3rds or 3/4ths of what she does.
The bleed problem is a problem because we need to have more guitar sound in the mix. So I don't *yet* have a way of bringing that up to match with Sarah's voice without also bringing up her voice still more. I need to experiment even more with mic placement (we are on about our 10th iteration) and that is what I was hoping the mix of the pickup would help with, too. Am I correct in interpreting what you called a "direct feed" as an input from the guitar pickup?
Also, the AKG 3000B is cardioid *only*, no hypercardioid, and its bass roll-off starts way up at 120hz and is not very steep. I was hoping to use the Mackie's steep 75hz bass roll-off instead - *also* a way of removing room noise. I recorded the room alone and the vast majority of its noise is down below 75hz. So, positioning mics on vocals with guitar will still be where I put most of my effort. I realize that a cardioid really has a 45 degree cone of 0db, so I will try to do something Mark suggested: angle the C3000B so that both the guitar neck/body join and Sarah's mouth are within that 45 degrees (kind of mono) - at the same time having the AE5100 pointed at the lower guitar as you suggested and also using the pickup into the mixer.
Sarah and I have talked about overdubbing, and we know the pros use it a lot, but Sarah has waaaaaay BIG problems with it. You should see her and hear her when she plays and sings - she goes into Trance Mode, she closes her eyes at some points, sways and moves with the music, and changes tempo and emphasis on both guitar and voice as she gets emotional. No way anyone could tab the result or put it into standard music notation :-) She works for that emotion and that's what her reward is for doing this stuff. If she were to prerecord a guitar track and try to sing along with it, she is certain that it would sound robotic and she wouldn't have much fun doing it and is not certain she could even do it at all.
The fun for me is both intellectual and emotional. I love this kind of problem solving, especially when I get interesting leads from you guys to track down, and I love listening to the recorded results, even if they are not perfect. I have a real hard time, when reviewing some processing I do in Audition, stopping myself from just listening and enjoying. It's a real bad jolt when I tell myself to stop grooving and get on with the work!
...Reid |
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