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John
`Olu`olu
656 Posts |
 Posted - 08/26/2002 : 3:43:22 PM
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Edited by - John on 06/26/2003 6:40:11 PM |
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Russell Letson
`Olu`olu
USA
504 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2002 : 6:31:58 PM
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I started more or less serious recording with a Sony DAT (currently a PCM-M1 semi-pro portable) and a Sony stereo mike but now use a minidisc (an Aiwa FM-70 or Sony MZ-B3, neither or which is available any more).
For the more serious end of the spectrum, I'd still use the DAT rig--it will do near-studio-quality recordings at the same sampling rates as CD. But for "notebook" work or the audio equivalent of snapshots/home soundies of informal gigs, I use the minidisc. Reasons: minidisk is lighter and more compact, a bit less finicky than DAT, less vulnerable to the shocks and dangers of field situations, cheaper to replace ($200-300 vs. $600) if the worst happens, and (to my aging ears) about 90% of the sound quality of DAT. (Complicated technical arguments about compression schemes and sampling rates omitted here.)
Unless you add a mixer, both formats are limited to two-track stereo and are neither is designed for studio-style multitrack/track bouncing/punch-in work (though there are some multitrack units that use specially formated MDs).
Either DAT or MD data can be dumped into a computer (in analog or digital form, depending on your sound card and other I/O gear) for editing and massaging (with CoolEdit, for example) and burning to CD if that's where you're headed. I've done a good bit of it (the home-made CD is the new fridge art to send to Mom) and it's nothing that a moderately computer-savvy user can't handle.
Other formats, especially the hard-disk-based multitrackers, offer something closer to studio functions, but they're pricey, much bulkier/less portable, and don't offer the convenience of a more or less standard removable recording medium. Cassette tape isn't even in the picture any more, and solid-state MP3 recorders are just starting to show up.
OK--is that more than anyone wanted to know?
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Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2002 : 6:46:59 PM
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Yo, Bro'
Rather than get into a long a detailed discussion, may I suggest a few resources? The subject is covered extensively, and sometimes well, on many places on the web:
some good starting points for FAQs and links:
HarmonyCentral.com
About.com
(search both under "Home Recording" and under "Guitar" headings)
Home Recording Central
I'd also suggest looking at the Electronic Musician online archives for the story I did last year on Home Recording and other tutorials. While you are at it, check out their "Desktop Music Production Guides," too.
EQ, MIX, Music and Computers and Guitar Player all have online resources, too.
Acoustic Guitar Magazine ran a real dandy story about six months ago, too.
A quick google search on "Home Recording" should give you several years' worth of stuff to follow up on.  You might also want to monitor alt.musicmakers/recording and all the other combinations and permutations of newsgroups you can think of. Yes, someone in the hurdygurdy support group probably has the answe you need.
What you will learn is that every single aspect of home recording has it's passionate protectors and detractors -- there simply ain't no single "best" way.
Another way to approach this might be to answer these questions:
What do I want to accomplish? (pro-level CD production, archiving, practice?)
How much time do I want to spend learning how to do it?
What do I want to spend?
How portable/flexible do I want the system to be?
Do I want an upgrade path?
This will go a long way in know where to start comparing. A portable Minidisc recorder vs a full scale $40K Pro-Tools system?? Each is perfect for what it does best.
Hope this helps.
Yr Pal,
Mark
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rd2ruin
Akahai
USA
52 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2002 : 2:22:53 PM
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You know, I just started using a program I found online called N-track, which is very good for the price. At something like $42, you plug your gee-tar directly into your soundcard. You can't do studio quality mixing with it, but it does have mixing and some effects built in, and can turn the song right into a stereo wav, mp3, or wma (Windows Media Audio file). I get Windows Media files at 256kb (CD quality) so the sound of me messing up sounds crystal clear. And there are options for sampling rates. I know analog will forever outclass digitally recording music, but, really, there are only about 63 people in the world that can tell the difference, unless you are a hardcore engineer that actually works in studios. The other couple million that claim to are really just talking to be heard. 
You can download a fully functioning version at www.fasoft.com, but the eval version only let's you do the first 10 seconds. That's long enough to see what it can do. And no, I dont work for them. Heck, I dont work at all right now  .
I like it because what I'm doing is single guitar, no vocals or tracks, although it has decent mutitracking capabilities. I also like it because it's $42.
I know it's not high end recording, but for a guy who has a bunch of solos just getting his feet wet with recording it's been great for creating the songs, and finally listening to them. I can also easily burn them on a CD to give to friends or sell them at Open Mic nights. I'm so cheap, I even designed my own artwork for the CD covers and print all those out here too.
I think more than anything else I've done to improve my playing, getting to hear it NOT as I play it has been the most important step to improve the songs. And this is an easy way to do it.
As I said, overall I've been very happy with it. The Interface is ridiculously simple. Got a big RECORD and big PLAY button. The only thing it doesn't have which I would have liked is a WAV editor. I imagine you can get a free one out of the web somewhere though.
Cheers!
- Greg
When you get a moment, could you do me a favor and explain to me what I was just talking about? |
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Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2002 : 2:46:06 PM
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Yo John -
I tried to zap you a copy of an piece I wrote that will help with a lot of your questions, but it bounced back to me. Please reply to me directly so I can resend, OK?
"My objective is to have a good-to-really-good mic (or mics) through a preamp into my sound card. I intend to record in an isolated (not necessarily sound-proof) room from the computer (i.e. noise). Although I don't want to cheap out on this, like I said above, I don't want to spend mega-bucks on what (in my mind) seems to be a simple endeavor."
You can do this with just about any computer made in the last five years. Newer is generally better, faster is generally better. Mac? PC?? Your choice.
1) You'll need an audio interface - Tascam, Event and Didgidesign (among many others) all make USB interfaces with varying amounts of bells and whistles - all with mic pre's, headphone out's and monitor outs.
MOTU makes a killer Firewire interface, probably more than you'll need, though.
Tons of companies make interfaces that you stick inside your computer. Avoid soundcards made for games -- they tend to be noisy.
There are a couple of very good units that combine one or two mic pres, EQ and dynamics processing with digital converters - so you can get a cheap audio interface for your computer and take advantage of quality outboard components.
BTW: Yes, you can rig up a Radio Shack patch cable and record directly into the audio in on a Mac or PC w/ Soundblaster. It'll give you about the same fidelity as a cassette.
2) Mics: I won't go into the pro's and cons. Suffice it to say condensers tend to give better detail. Small diaphragm condensers are often used for guitar. Many pro's like the Nueman KM 184 (around a grand); a good inexpensive all-around choice is the AKG C1000s (it can use a battery - nice if you don't have phantom power.) Some folks swear by the Octavia and other mondo cheap mics, others swear at them. Your call.
3) Software: chances are your interface will come bundled with software that will more than meet your need. Cruise websites for downloadable demos so you can make informed choices before you buy.
Yes, there's a ton of freeware and shareware. You get what you pay for...
Most multi-track audio software will come with enuf effects to cover your needs.
You'll also need software for burning CDs -- again, usually you can get by with what comes bundled with your burner.
4) Storage: Although you can record to your internal hard-drive, it is better to have an external drive (SCSI or Firewire) to ease the overhead on your system disc.
Audio files can quickly eat up a LOT of space. I just helped a bud mix his story-telling project: one voice, one instrument. He had over 2 1/2 gigs of alternate takes, fixes, etc.!
5) Monitoring: You'll need to hear what you are doing while you are recording. I'd suggest a good set o' pro headphones rather than the litle jobs sold in electronic stores. Those tend to have a huge bass and treble boost to make lousy disco music sound exciting.
You'll eventually want some nearfield monitors - use your stereo in a pinch.
Total expense, assuming you have the computer, anywhere from a couple hundred to a couple thousand.
I'd also suggest looking at small, desktop units like the Tascam 788, Roland VS series, or others by Yamaha, Akai, Boss, and Zoom. Some come with a CD burner, all have mic-pres, mixers and FX.
DATs, while a wonderful tool for stereo mixes or location recording, won't let you do multi-tack recording.
Hope this helps.
Good luck!
Mark
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Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2002 : 2:53:34 PM
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"DATs, while a wonderful tool for stereo mixes or location recording, won't let you do multi-tack recording. "
That would be "multi-track recording."
Though in the case of a lot of what I've recorded, perhaps "multi-tacky recording" is the proper word.
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cmdrpiffle
`Olu`olu
USA
553 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2002 : 01:42:47 AM
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Okay, I admit, I was surfing....
John, I've nothing to add...actually I did, quite a bit, but I read Mark's replys. Yep, that 'bout covers it. The point is, if you ask a question, yer gonna get 15 zillion answers, everything from peoples opinions to professional insight. Mark's replys cover the latter. Dont forget to have fun recording. (my dad bought a couple of 'cassette recorders/players in the early 70's, the portable, rectangular ones, 6 buttons on the front, one on the right in red, getting the picture...Man did I have fun with those 3 recorders. I was a true 'multi=tracker, record on one, record on the other, play both to the third, start all over....)
For my input, I use a Shure sm57 for everything, almost, and a clean line direct into from a pre-amp equipped acoustic guitar into the computer. But then, I'm a dork...
Mark however, 'tacky"? Bro, I heard you play, and used yer Taylor when I forgot mine in the room for Herb and Keoki's, 'dammit man, you shall learn music theory 401 in the next 45 minutes, or Herb will have you for lunch' class one afternoon. Brother, you are a Guitarist in the finest sense of the word. Period.
That Taylor whatever the hell it was, was one fine smoking guitar too.
Sorry to fill the space if this didnt help, but in the end, follow His Holiness, the Mark's advice and you will do just fine young man. :)
Peace love and tye dye
Mike
piffle |
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rd2ruin
Akahai
USA
52 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2002 : 2:23:10 PM
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quote:
Hi Greg.
Unfortunately, I can't plug my gee-tar in... it's plugless.
So thanks Greg! For coming up with a third reason why I want (actually... need) to do this.
I got a Fender with the plug in, but sometimes I like to use and old Ibanez or a cheap Takamine (which for some reason hold a better low C note in Wahine) which have no plug in. I bought a cheap Dean Markley Pro acoustic pickup (single pickup version), which should run about $35 at your local music store, and pop it right into the soundhole. This also comes in handy for playing out on occassion. I turned a friend of mine who's a struggling jazz student onto one as well and he concurs.
Then you need an adapter to get the big plug into the little hole. I think I got mine at Target or somewhere for $3. It's the same one headphones use to get into walkmans and such. Make sure you get the one with two bands on the adapter (you'll see what I mean).
Cheers!
- Greg |
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rd2ruin
Akahai
USA
52 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2002 : 3:59:13 PM
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quote:
Er... ummm... I don't want to sound condescending...
Not at all. I was thinking cheap and just getting it down. You can't use the info, but maybe some other folks new to recording ideas might be able to. Likewise, I'll be following this thread with I'm sure will come in handy down the road when I'm looking for more advanced recording advice!
In either case, it's still much more effective getting info here than at the music store. I'm up in Philly now, and you explain to the pimply faced youths at the store that you are playing slack key, inquire about recording equiptment for it, or if anyone gives lessons in it, and they start drooling all over thier Kid Rock teeshirts until they pass out.
Cheers!
- Greg
When you get a moment, could you do me a favor and explain to me what I was just talking about? |
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Admin
Pupule
USA
4551 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2002 : 11:50:25 PM
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quote:
I tried to zap you a copy of an piece I wrote that will help with a lot of your questions, but...
Mark,
Is your piece about recording with a PC? If so, can you zap me a copy too? I'm thinking about retiring my PII-266 that I have a home and upgrading. I'm also considering getting a decent sound card and figuring out what else I might need.
Thanks for the links. When I get a chance, I'll check 'em more thoroughly. Most of my time lately has been spent working and trying to upgrade the forum software here.
Andy |
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Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 08/29/2002 : 8:44:18 PM
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Man, you guys are gonna make me blush...
Mike - the Taylor is a 414K - at the time the bottom of the line as far as Taylor went. But this puppy sounds HUGE - and it proves that there is life in the wood. Why? Because there are hundreds of robot-made guitars exactly like it, made within the micron point whatever tolerances that Bob Taylor built into his shop -- and yet this one smakes 'em all. Which is why I put a big hole in my credit card... on my wife's birthday, no less. Heck, I suppose it's better than the time I bought her a chain saw...
John - The Rode NT1 is a dandy mic - good for both guitar and vocals. It's got some high end boost, which some folks like. Otherwise a good solid choice for not much money. You'll need phantom power.
The SM57 is a long-time standard for acoustic guitar, particularly on stage. Great for mic'ing amps, too. But if you are buying a new mic, I'd go with a condenser for guitar.
The little Mackie 1202 is a workhorse - and it has very decent mic pre's. Good little live rig, too.
Also, the current ish of EM has a review of two inexpensive USB interfaces from Midiman you mention in a letter to me.
I leave you with a quote from an award-winning engineer: "Just put up a couple of good mics, stand back and let magic happen. People will think you're a genius."
Mark
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RichardH
Aloha
USA
15 Posts |
Posted - 08/29/2002 : 10:03:56 PM
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You already have a PC with a stereo sound card, so use that. It will surprise you how good a sound you can get, and two tracks is plenty for recording your guitar. In most of the more sophisticated recording software programs you can lay down tracks, and then while you are listening to those, lay down 2 more tracks and so on until you could record an orchestra two tracks at a time!
First you need a simple mixer with phantom power so you can use sensitive condensor mics. An inexpensive Behringer mixer with 4 mic inputs can be purchased for around $100. Check Musicians Friend on the web for great prices for everything mentioned here. Look in the literature that comes with the mixer and on the web for how to set up a mixer and use it properly.
Mics: Most important piece of the equation, cause that's the transducer where sound gets turned into electrical signal. Do a bad job here, and nothing else you will do can resurect the original sound of your guitar. I'd recommend a Rode NT1 (a very sensitive large diaphram condensor, around $200) or even better a Rode NT1000 for $300 if you have a very quiet space in which to record. If your space is less than very quiet, then I would use an AKG C1000s (small diaphram condensor, around $175) which is less sensitive but very clear and will respond to your guitar and not every noise in the neighborhood. All those mics I use a lot, and they never let me down. But mics are personal, and as you go along you will want to try others. If you are experimentive, buy two of these and position one near the body on the neck, and the other above and looking down at the body of the guitar. Listen with your ear while someone else is playing your guitar for the sweet spots. Then pan the neck right and the body left during your editing. Listen and adjust. The web is swamped with techniques for recording. Read, read, read.
One caution,,don't ever plug or unplug a condensor mic from its cable without turning off phantom power. You can blow a mic in a second. Phantom power is just a voltage that the mixer sends out on the mic cable for the electronics in the mic to use. Would you unplug your computer to turn it off, or would you shut it down properly? Same deal with a mic.
Software: There are lots of programs out there. I think the soundblaster live card has a wave recording and editing program that comes with the card, so you might want to start there. It is simple. If you like what you are doing, there are lots of programs. I personally use Cakewalk SONAR II, but it is complicated, and will make your life miserable for a couple of months before you get used to it. Start with something easy.
You will need a couple of mic cables, a pair of earphones a good stereo amp like a Pioneer and some GOOD nearfield monitor speakers to mix with. Treat yourself to the speakers early..you can't mix without them, and music will never sound better.
Find some cables and adaptors to connect the output of your mixer into the line input of your sound card. Pan one track hard left and the other hard right on the mixer. This will separate the mixer output to two tracks. Be sure that the line input software volume control of your soundcard is turned up. Soundblaster live has a playback window and a recording window that comes when you click on 'properties'. Be sure you setup the recording level parameters!
Mix it down and save it as a WAV file, burn it on a CD and you are on your way.
Aloha - Richard
Richard
Grass Shack Records
Kealakekua Bay, Hawaii |
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hapakid
Luna Ho`omalu
USA
1533 Posts |
Posted - 08/31/2002 : 12:16:41 AM
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I've been reading this thread with interest to see what kind of recording everyone is into and on what level. I've learned a lot.
But one question that hasn't come up is what kind of computer processor speed/RAM do you need to make quality recordings into your computer. Does it even matter? Is there a difference in system requirements for recording with your basic soundcard software versus a home recording software? How about versus a high-end software package like Cakewalk or something like that?
And the geek question is, how does bit-rate and sampling rate relate to system requirements?
Jesse Tinsley (still using an old cassette deck)
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cmdrpiffle
`Olu`olu
USA
553 Posts |
Posted - 08/31/2002 : 10:49:09 AM
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Hapakid...cool
this is gonna take a few lines....
John.....Brah!! sorry for the delay, I was in a funk and didnt look at my computer for a couple of days. How is it going my friend?, (howzt goin Brah?) I caught the full wrath of Toki and Annie, (aloha actually) when I showed up again. Had some 'tings to work thru.
For you and Hapakid, CAKEWALK !!! I have the guitar studio 2, by Cakewalk on my computer, Compaq (stop that right now!, yes YOU Julie) running 500 mghz processor, what the hell ever on the hardrive, and 128k of ram. Hapakid, total cost for getting started on this type of program, 'bout $200.00 This for the program and a workable microphone. HapaKid, if yer like me you're doing something unrelated, when suddenly, YOU HAVE TO RECORD NOW!!! For that, Cakewalk is pretty cool. Doin the dishes, watching the dogs, fire up the computer, plug in a guitar and go...as for all the editing functions on the program, I've figured out maybe 10% at the most and it works just fine. (has a 600 page manual)
John, what YOU need to do is decide which route you want to go. To be honest, some of the inexpensive computer based programs sound better than pay by the hour studio time from only 2 years ago. Quick and dirty. BUT...all these folks writing in about microphone models and floor surfaces in recording areas....listen up. Theyre right. Only thing I cant recommend after the ease of digital is analog recording. TAPE. The best situation is still going to be a bit dirty compared with digital. May be good for 'fat crunchy tones' but the delicate overtones and pure sound of Kiho'Alu...Digital..but hey its only my opinion. Remember at first KISS, keep it simple...find what works for your style. I mentioned somewhere that I use my trusty sm57 for recording. I do, but a condenser microphone is what you really want. If you're new to recording, I suggest Radio Shacks own brand, Tandy. (please you all, stop the insanity). Good to find out what the differences are that way, and when you KNOW what makes you sound like YOU, go for the higher end brands.
Okay, Im done, 'cept, Mark, if you're reading this, when I grow up, I wanna sound like you !
Peace love and Kamanapakaloinuahaamakaapaaoki'i , or something similarly Hawaiian sounding.
-'cause I'm a whiteboy living in Kalifornia
aloha to you all,
Mike (John, Commander Piffle is the Supreme Kommander of the FDLF)
piffle |
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Fran Guidry
Ha`aha`a
USA
1579 Posts |
Posted - 08/31/2002 : 1:12:13 PM
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quote:
...But one question that hasn't come up is what kind of computer processor speed/RAM do you need to make quality recordings into your computer. Does it even matter? Is there a difference in system requirements for recording with your basic soundcard software versus a home recording software? How about versus a high-end software package like Cakewalk or something like that?
And the geek question is, how does bit-rate and sampling rate relate to system requirements? ...
Jesse, here's a little from my experience.
I recorded to my satisfaction on a PII 600 Mhz with 128 MB RAM and 20 GB hard disk. I used Cool Edit 2000. For the kind of work we do (stereo, no overdubs, little or no processing and that done after recording) the computer requirements are pretty low.
Higher end software works more quickly and smoothly with more RAM and a faster processor, but the big jump in CPU and RAM requirements come when you want to do multiple tracks and real time processing. Even the most powerful computer runs out of steam with lots of effects going in real time, so high end recording systems usually include a DSP (Digital Signal Processing) card. This is a dedicated array processor designed to do the calculations required for audio effects. Some of these cards have processing power equivalent to the multi-million dollar Cray computers that nuclear fusion scientists used 10 years ago. Today they cost a few hundred or thousand.
Higher bit depth and sampling rates might flood your system bus if your PC is really marginal (say a Pentium 90) but the big impact will be on disk space. I regularly generate 300 Mbyte files for a 5 minute stereo track when I record at 88.2 Khz and 32 bit depth. Recording at 44.1 and 16 bit the same track would be about 50 MB.
Here's one more piece of the story. I recorded my first "pass around to friends" CD using the PII-500, Soundblaster sound card, a cheap Behringer mixer, and a single Shure SM81 condenser. Now I use a P4 1 Ghz, Delta-66 soundcard, an M-Audio DMP3 preamp, and two matched Sound Room Oktave MC012 mics. I am 98% sure that the improvement in my current recordings is due to my learning more about mic placement, getting more comfortable in front of the mic, and developing better picking technique. The most basic equipment out there is SOOOOOO good for our simple recording needs that it amazes me.
Fran
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hapakid
Luna Ho`omalu
USA
1533 Posts |
Posted - 09/01/2002 : 12:21:46 AM
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cmdrpiffle wrote: if yer like me you're doing something unrelated, when suddenly, YOU HAVE TO RECORD NOW!!!
I admit that there are odd moments when the falsetto vocal chords clear up, the guitar has new strings and the baby is finally taking a nap. At that moment, a decent recording setup would be nice because I may launch into "Hawaiian Cowboy" any minute! "Ulu lei, lei lehua!" Auwe!
Thanks for the replies to the tech questions. I may point my new-uke-someday savings towards something for basic recording. Jesse Tinsley
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