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Lawrence
Ha`aha`a
USA
1597 Posts |
 Posted - 05/31/2005 : 2:12:35 PM
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Good Point -
No he lived much longer than that... WRONG GUY
here is the other guy... http://www.deming.org/
(sorry for the post hi-jack... now we return to the regular programming...) |
Mahope Kākou...
...El Lorenzo de Ondas Sonoras |
Edited by - Lawrence on 05/31/2005 2:15:37 PM |
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rhnelson
Aloha
USA
9 Posts |
Posted - 05/31/2005 : 3:22:19 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Reid
You picked a tricky one to start with: the theme and variations *are* a bit irregular and long......
…Reid
Thanks, that was what I was looking for. I thought that since measures 7 and 23 were the same, measure 23 had to be the 7th measure of the second variation. But, hey, I couldn't help it - I'm an engineer. :-)
The other song I"m working on, Ron Loo's "Kawaihae" was a lot easier.
Rick |
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Reid
Ha`aha`a
Andorra
1526 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2005 : 02:36:20 AM
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Rick,
I take it you have Ron's book(s)and tapes. If so, you will find them really helpful and technique expanding. Ron goes about things in a somewhat different way; he shows you what may be a more "traditional" technique and style; at least different and helpful. For instance, the D7 at the 5th, 4th and 7th frets(C, F#, A) is ended by sliding the index finger from 4 to 5, whereas Ozzie uses his pinkie to slide from 2nd string 7th fret (F#)to the G at the 8th fret on the same string. My little finger is too weak to do that, so I have stayed with Ron's way even when I am doing a piece that Ozzie arranged. There are lots of other things you can learn by comparing the two, especially since they both concentrate on Taro Patch and its variants: Double Slack and Leonard's C.
Have fun...
...Reid |
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Peter Medeiros
`Olu`olu
546 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2005 : 10:13:02 AM
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Hi Reid,
I think you kind of hit it on the nose. You have to compare the two, Ron and Oz. However,neither one is more traditional than the other. They are both describing a V7 to I movement (D7 to G). Ron is staying in the second position, Oz is moving from second to third position. I think that at this point in your development the second position in taropatch (frets 4 to 7) will be easier to execute, rather than transitioning from second position to third (frets 7 to 10).
PM |
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Keone
Akahai
50 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2005 : 07:25:11 AM
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Aloha Peter, Reid, and others,
I wanted to make sure I was staying with you on this pearl. I fully understand the D7 to G vamp (turnaround) and how to make it. I also understand that it can be made in different positions and with the slide on different treble strings. But, I wasn't quite sure on some of the chord positions you were describing (You'll have to excuse me I don't have Ron Loo's book to reference). Also I assume your saying position one is on the lower frets and the higher positions are when you advance up the neck.
In Taro, I know the following D7 positions, fret 1-4 (fingers at 4,1,2 on strings 1,2,3), fret 3-5 (fingers at 4,3,5), and fret 5-7 (fingers at 7,7,5), and I thought a D at fret 10-12 (fingers at 12,10,11).
I don't know the second position that Peter is talking about at fret 4-7. Perhaps, a player can combine the different positions and that is what you're talking about? For example is the D7 at fret 4-7 have the fingers at 4,7,5 on strings #1, #2, #3? As well, then the third position at Fret 7-10 consist of fingers at 7,10,7?
I apologize if these chords are straightforward and I'm not staying with you. I don't have my guitar in front of me and it is definitely more difficult to visualize without having my kuuipo (my guitar) in front of me!
Mahalo nui. |
Keone |
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Reid
Ha`aha`a
Andorra
1526 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2005 : 09:42:14 AM
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Keone, you are doing fine; you are certainly "staying with" *me* (maybe lots beyond me). The D7 position that is in Ron's books is a variant of that "7,7,5" one you mentioned, as is Ozzie's. Different fingering, different F# to G slide.
(Using 1234, starting with index as 1 for finger designations) Ron puts 2 on 3rd string 5th fret C, 4 on 1st string 7th fret A, and 1 on 1st string 4th fret. Then, (ignoring bass notes) he picks 1st string, 2nd string (or vice-versa, depending),lifts off the 1st string and slides finger 1 from 4, F#, to 5, G on the 1st string. Nice little move.
Ozzie does finger 1 on 3rd string 5th fret C, and I forget which finger does the F# and A together on the strings 2 and 1, respectively. Then he slides from *that* F# to the G at the 8th fret (which is identical in pitch, but not timbre,to the G on the 1st string 5th fret). I remember him doing that slide with his pinkie, and I know that I must use it in order to get the stretch. My problem with that, as I said, is that my pinkie is weak, OTW I can do it OK.
The verbal description is lots harder to understand than tab or watching. I apologise.
Depending on the song, one method may be more suitable than another.
As for what Peter said about 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Position, I can only fumble an answer because I am basically untrained (no potty jokes, please). In "classical" guitar usage, my understanding is that the 1st 3 frets are called First Position, frets 4-6 (7?) are called Second Position, etc. My understanding of the reason for the Position titles is that "Standard" tuning allows a scale of any (major?) key to be executed within 3 frets. Somebody (please, Peter?) correct me.
...Reid
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Peter Medeiros
`Olu`olu
546 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2005 : 12:38:59 PM
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Keone,
Both Ron and Oz were students of mine. Basically I just opened the doors, gave them the methodologies and these guys went through their own course of development. Ron was with me around 1974-1975 as a private student. He went on to study a short while with Sonny and then with Aunty Alice. Oz studied with me through my beginning, intermediate and advanced classes at UH 1975-1976, and later as a private student under a NEA Program for folk life preservation called the Masters Apprenticeship Grant administered by the Hawaii State Foundation of Culture and Arts. This was in 1986-1987. I was not his only teacher, he studied under Sonny for a while.
Maybe I shouldn’t have said anything. But I use the concept of positions to indicate to the student(s) where the fingering hand should be placed on the neck. However, it is not based upon five positions of three frets each. Instead the positions are determined simply by where the root chord inversions fall on the strings used for melody. I use three left hand positions of three, four or even six frets. For a student having to deal with three left hand positions as opposed to five it becomes less intimidating.
The tuning will determine the positions. Each tuning has it’s own chromatic characteristics. I start with taropatch because I feel it is perhaps the most versatile of all the tunings I know. In general, first position is usually determined by the first three or four frets. Second position, begins with the first inversion of the root chord, in taropatch, second position would start at the 3rd string B at the 4th fret. Third position in taropatch would start on the 3rd sting D at the 7th fret.
I learned this aspect of teaching from my Dad and Peter Moon, they couldn’t articulate what it was they were playing, they could only show me how it was done. Over the years I refined what I had learned from them and developed my own methodology based upon my observations. I had to create my own vernacular in order to become an effective teacher.
The most important thing to keep in mind is it that allows you to identify chords and movement within a specific area of the fretboard. As a teacher, it allows me to convey my knowledge of slack key in a logical way to a large group of college students very easily.
One thing I have is a good memory and Reid your description of Ron’s V7-I comes from the first packet of tabs dealing with V7-I vamps I gave him thirty years ago. It is one of Gabby’s taropatch moves. Back then a lot of my transcriptions used in teaching were of Gabby. Oz’s example is pure Oz where he wanted to get the up slur from F#’ to G’. You don’t have to use your pinky, use your ring finger since it’s already at the F#’.
PM |
Edited by - Peter Medeiros on 06/07/2005 1:03:25 PM |
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Keone
Akahai
50 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2005 : 8:16:39 PM
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Peter and Reid,
Mahalo for your clarifications. Information like this is what makes the Taropatch so helpful. Without a one on one teacher to bring up these type of pearls, it would take years to stumble across this type of enlightenment, especially when resources are thin. Peter... in particular... I do appreciate your description and language of the mechanics. Clarity definitetly helps me play better, with understanding, and ease. It goes without saying that language is an essential tool to convey that information. (especially since we have to communicate in written form ...unfortunately...I can't just watch you as you were able to see it with your dad and Peter Moon.) By the way, Wow...you must be proud of your students...I can only wait for the opportunity to see you. I know you're coming to Palo Alto which is fairly close to me in Monterey so I'll have to try to make it up! Again Mahalo.
Aloha |
Keone |
Edited by - Keone on 06/03/2005 05:47:35 AM |
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Reid
Ha`aha`a
Andorra
1526 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2005 : 02:46:57 AM
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Peter,
I'm with Keone; your explanation of your position system based on chord inversions is something that makes my learning process take a quantum leap. It is supremely logical. I had been thinking of the fretboard as a single 12 semitone sequence, with some "Home Bases" (Uncle Manu used the 1st string, 5th fret G as his "Home Base" in G and Oz calls the C chord at the first 2 frets the "Home Base" in C). Now, I have smaller chunks to deal with. In addition, your description links in to a history with new details.
Which leads me to the nagging (if self-interested) question: When will your book come out? Obviously, we need it.
Regards,
Reid |
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Keone
Akahai
50 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2005 : 05:45:37 AM
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A book? Wow, if you put a book out explaining these mechanics...well...it would be outstanding. It would surely improve my playing and understanding.
Aloha |
Keone |
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Peter Medeiros
`Olu`olu
546 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2005 : 08:16:45 AM
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I am hoping to be finished with it before fall semester. This summer I will be working on it exclusively. I was originally going with UH Press and the academic glory until it was pointed out to me by Byron Yasui, a great jazz musician, who teaches composition here that it wasn't going to increase my pay, which I knew of course, but that their payment on sales weren't the kind of thing you could count on. He suggested going for the money with either Mel Bay or Hal Leonard, I forget which (we were in the mailroom discussing this). Oz suggested self-publishing and gave me some leads on printers and that is probably the way I am going to go.
The problem I'm having now is deciding when to take my hands off of the project and finally kick it out into the public. There is so much I would like to include, however, because although it is an anthology on slack key and a comparative analysis at that, I have to cut back on some artist's contributions.
The thing is I cannot include everybody I consider significant because the general public hasn't validated them because they have not released any recordings. The masters concept is a marketing technique, which I don't buy into, and I find it divisive and artificial means of separating the so-called great players from the good players only because they have a recording out. I have played with some great players who have never recorded who are very dynamic players and storytellers. Most of them would put the guys who are out there playing the circuit to shame. This obviously is subjective thinking on my part, but with only a few exceptions, at this point of the game mediocrity reigns. Anyway I'm working on it, and something will be out soon.
PM.
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Reid
Ha`aha`a
Andorra
1526 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2005 : 11:12:18 AM
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Great Peter!
Please post us a notice here when it is ready. My hand is poised over my checkbook.
Also, have you thought about a blog for the parts you can't include? I can think of several ways you can do that.
The neatest thing would be to blog here, as posts. You could write in MS Word, or whatever, and then copy and paste into one of TP's forms. I also think that it could be set up so that only you could post into a topic - so no extraneous blathering from guys like me.
It would be a shame if what you know is lost. We have lost too much already.
...Reid |
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Keone
Akahai
50 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2005 : 9:41:01 PM
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Peter,
Your book sounds great and I agree with Reid...I would love to get me eyes and fingers onto anything that you have put down on paper. Undoubtably, if you pondered, organized, and scribed it then it is probably something of pretty significant value in my mind.
I also like Reid's idea of putting stuff together on the patch. You could essentially have an online class or lecture as you desire (I also promise not to blab if needed).
Also, I recently had to get a bunch of newsletters and pamphlets printed out (3 colors, very high quality) and it was really a bargain with some of the on-line printing companies, e.g. printing for less.com. I'm sure you have some good leads on printing from Ozzie but I figure...its in my self interest to chime in. Thanks.
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Peter Medeiros
`Olu`olu
546 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2005 : 08:15:51 AM
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Reid and Keone,
I'm flattered by your comments. A blog or online class (we do this at school) never really occured to me as a by-product, but I will give it some serious thought. The first priority is to finish the book, my name is on it. It has to stand on its own over time as an accurate document on slack key, otherwise it becomes just another slack key commodity -- aloha for sale with strings attached. I'll put it to my boss (wife) see what she thinks.
Standing over my shoulder she says "I don't know how you would do that? Do we need a camera to demonstrate?"
I say "I don't know, probably. Main thing is to finish the book."
We'll give it some thought.
Peter M |
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Pops
Lokahi
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2005 : 3:16:13 PM
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Peter,
What you bring to the table is of great value. I, for one, am really looking forward to you book. Good luck!
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