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hapakid
Luna Ho`omalu
USA
1533 Posts |
 Posted - 06/19/2005 : 9:14:27 PM
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It sure gets slow around here when everybody heads off to camp/workshop and the rest of us have to work...
I've been enjoying a bunch of new CDs lately and I was wondering what the general consensus was about getting vocals with their slack key. I've been enjoying Cindy Combs jazz-style vocals and Bla Pahinui's growling voice and it made me wonder what the hardcore slack key junkies preferred.
Do most folks here like to hear singing on slack key albums they buy? Does anyone steer clear of mostly vocal recordings? Are there slack key artists that don't sing at all (and are preferred for that reason)?
I teased Herb Ohta Jr. (at a workshop) for being a strict instrumentalist, but he pointed out that he did two vocal songs on "Ukulele Dream". Still he won't sing in public.
I'm interested in the prevailing tastes around here.
Jesse Tinsley
Recovering singer, trying to learn slack key
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Reid
Ha`aha`a
Andorra
1526 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2005 : 03:23:09 AM
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Since it is just you and me here, Jesse...
It has been said before here: the vocal story/song is the historical basis of slack key, and, without it, there is something important missing. Can you imagine Gabby NOT singing Hi`ilawe?
Having said that, as a "modern" entertainment medium, a mix of vocals and instrumentals on a CD is clearly the most interesting (of course, like all generalities, there are exceptions to this - like anything that Ozzie does).
In a club or "Festival" environment, if there is no vocal, the audience just tunes out, and talks story or eats and drinks - we learned that in spades on Maui 2 years ago. In a concert environment, you might be able to get away with pure instrumental, but it would be hard to keep the audience's interest.
...Reid |
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Admin
Pupule
USA
4551 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2005 : 04:48:15 AM
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Hello, ello, llo, o... Whoa, there's an echo.
I'm here too. While I very much enjoy a pure slack key instrumental, I find that an entire album of it tends to lack the variety and extra dimension that singing might add. Same goes for a live performance. My hat goes off to those instrumentalists who can keep an audience engaged and interested with only instrument in hand, no vocals. Seems challenging to me, i.e. you better be darn good to keep things interesting and fun. There are certainly people out there who can do it, though. |
Andy |
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chunky monkey
Ha`aha`a
USA
1022 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2005 : 05:08:07 AM
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| Yo. Chunk's in the house too. I'm with Reid and Andy. Even my wife leaves the room after I play 2 or 3 John Keawe instrumental tunes. She's making me learn to sing and play simultaneously. For me, it's who is playing. I can listen to Ozzie or Leonard Kwan all day and can't imagine either singing. Doug McMasters' music is entirely instrumental (at least, what I've heard). John Keawe's music is in my desert island collection, but at his live shows he mostly sings and I love that, too. I can't imagine Uncle Dennis or Cyril not singing. Part of what I like is that over the years, each of these performers has developed a signature that I anticipate in their music - sometimes instrumental, sometimes vocal. |
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Russell Letson
`Olu`olu
USA
504 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2005 : 05:25:17 AM
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It's not just slack key that has problems with instrumental-only sets--ask any solo guitar performer. Once you get away from the hardcore guitar-nerd audience (which can be sizable in a big town), people seem to prefer at least a mix of vocals and instrumentals. My non-musician wife, who really enjoys Kottke, Cooder, and Donohue (in addition to Django and all the slack key players) needs the words to stay focused, even if they're in a foreign language. (Of course, she's a Shakespeare teacher, so words mean a great deal to her). You see a similar situation in the jazz world, which may be one reason Diana Krall and John Pizzarelli have done so well. (It doesn't explain Kenny G, though. Oh, wait, he's not really jazz.)
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hapakid
Luna Ho`omalu
USA
1533 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2005 : 05:43:13 AM
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It seems like when I meet other mainland slackers, I find most of their repertoire involves instrumentals. Perhaps its because many people don't play and sing at the same time. I think instrumental-only performance tends to become background music (I'm probably ADHD). I like to hear the story told in words, with occasional instrumentals to break it up.
Listening to Cindy Combs' "Slack Key Lady" CD, I really enjoyed her energetic playing almost as much as her singing. She plays a lot like Led Ka'apana in that respect.
Jesse Tinsley
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Mika ele
Ha`aha`a
USA
1493 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2005 : 05:52:36 AM
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The kanikapila tradition is a backyard sing-along. Some professional slack-key players sing on their records, Keola, John, Dennis, George, Bla, and others. The Hui aloha CD is good because of the vocals. Some songs are missing something without the vocals. Some would be drowned out with a human voice. Variety!!
On the personal side, it is hard enough to play a song well with good tone and few noticeable mistakes. Now add in the words and it is even more difficult -- for me, especially if it has a syncopated beat.
I was just fooling around on my ukulele the other day and found the chords to "The Gilligan's Island Theme". I decided to strum it with a Jawaiian beat. It was so much more fun with the words since almost anyone can sing them . . . I even stopped for a second to look up a chord form in another position and I could hear my wife and daughters in the family room singing, . . "the Professor and . .Maryanne . ." -- what a hoot. Try playing that one as a ki ho'alu instrumental -- it'll never fly, Orville! |
E nana, e ho'olohe. E pa'a ka waha, e hana ka lima. |
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Keone
Akahai
50 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2005 : 07:14:04 AM
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Aloha all non-camp 'patchers,
I'm relatively new to ki ho'alu, but I was telling Jesse that I got into because my wife's family (whose hawaiian) likes to get together and play music, sing, and dance. Well there's one uncle who plays slack during these get together and it sounds great. It definitely sounds great with the singing, as Reid said... can you imagine Gabby's Hi'ilawe without vocals? Actually, in my ohana we listen to a lot of different Hawaiian, not just strictly slack, music and it still has slack as accompanyment, e.g. C & K, Brother's Cozimeros, Keali'i Reichel, Peter Moon Band, Olama, etc. They choose slack tuning, I presume, because of the ease that these tunings provide in creating tones that add to the quality of the music, in terms of solos, fills, melody lines, etc. I believe the acoustic guitar is a versatile instrument that sounds great with vocals or without, in a alternative tuning or not.
Personally, I like to sing and play. I just can't sing Hawaiian that well right now and have easy access to slack tab of instrumentals. But, take a listen to Jesse...he sounds great and plays slack great.
BTW, I'm sure people whould agree that there are some great slack instrumentals that just wouldn't sound good with vocals either...Radio Hula and Opihi Moemoe come to mind. I guess it just depends on the emphasis of the song and the talents/goals of the performer. |
Keone |
Edited by - Keone on 06/20/2005 07:30:57 AM |
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Reid
Ha`aha`a
Andorra
1526 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2005 : 08:19:55 AM
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First, it is really nice to know I have more really good company than I thought. Howzit guyz?
There is an obvious thing and, then, there is a funny thing about singing while playing. The obvious thing is the language skills barrier in Hawaiian (even though there are a few Pidgin and English language songs) - it takes work, but can be done. (Here comes the Monty Python bit:) No, 2 obvious things - singing requires talent and practice, too. As a kid I used to be able to sing pretty well. Now, I sound like 2 pieces of corrugated metal rubbing together, if I try. I suppose I could work at it, as Sarah does, but it would be real work.
The strange thing is that some people, OK Sarah (are you ears burning ku`u ipo?), can *not* (usually)play a song that has a vocal component as an instrumental unless she goes through a full-fledged rearrangement. The song is a complete object to her. The rythms, the expression (tempo and volume modulation) are driven by what the song's words and melody are saying to her. That is why overdubs on her recordings are just not possible for us.
I also overlooked one other facet of purely instrumental playing that can hold attention: play it loud and fast. Amurricans (and more and more of the world) are used to loud, fast music. I asked one friend why she liked only that kind of stuff and she said it was "energizing". Slack key sure ain't cocaine, even when uptempo; what Kevin calls "spunky".
...Reid
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slkho
`Olu`olu
740 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2005 : 1:50:15 PM
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Hmmm-mmm.?
Y'know, if I could sing, I would but I'm totally tone-deaf and my singing isn't even fit for a tuna boat out-house. Still, I would like to think that whatever voice came out would be unique and all its own, somehow fitting in the slack-key vocal style. Maybe, one day.
On the other hand, there's alot of beautiful slack key music that was created just to listen to, like Punahene for example.
If you can sing, it would definitely make you a better slack key player, but necessarily a requirement.
-slkho |
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Mark E
Lokahi
USA
186 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2005 : 7:45:57 PM
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Doubtless it's masochistic to take another position when everyone is agreeing that singing is so great but here goes anyway: For me (not anyone else perhaps), slack key is a style of guitar playing. And what I love best about it are the beautiful guitar sounds that come out in particular pieces when done by particular artists. I think maybe it's what George Winston does with piano (for me, at least).
I grew up with a Julliard-accepted mother who had practiced 4 hours a day from the age of four years old. She could play almost any piano piece and did throughout my entire childhood. But when I heard George Winston, it was like a whole different kind of music. Because he doesn't put his skill in your face. Or the composition (however great it might be). Or his unique interpretation of the piece (although that's there, of course). In my view, HE LETS OUT THE MUSIC THAT'S IN THE INSTRUMENT!!!  Or, maybe I should say the SOUL of the instrument.
I don't know how to say this although it's so very clear to me what I'm trying to describe. See if this makes any sense to you:
When someone is making a guitar (or a piano or any instrument), they put together the wood and glue and strings and frets or black and white keys and so on. And when it is done and someone plays it, if it is a REAL musical instrument, some magic happens. Something comes out of it that is more than the wood, glue and metal. MUSIC comes out of it! Something that sings and has a heart of its own. Something much more than the sum of the instrument's parts. No?
Say we call it the Soul of that instrument. Or, maybe the nahenahe of the instrument.
Then, let's say that different people come along and play the instrument. Some have incredible skill and can make (and I do mean "make") that instrument do just about anything they want. But they and their skill are out front. The instrument is the slave to do their bidding. You don't really hear the instrument that much. Was the guitar that was played a beautiful instrument? Hard to say. Your attention wasn't really on that aspect of the performance. And let's say that others do other things with the instrument. But when a George Winston comes along, he is the servant and his job is bringing forth the beauty and magic of the instrument. Not having the instrument bring out something of his. Afterwards, we know very well that his piano had a just beautiful sound. Neh?
When we listen to him, we are really there to hear the soul or magic or something-more-than-the-sum-of-its-parts of the instrument. Not George Winston. I think this is why such pieces are often slow and there can be single notes or simple chords. It is so we can HEAR the sound of the instrument. Uncluttered by lots of notes at once or notes going by rapidly.
Keola Beamer does this lots of times. I think this kind of playing was why, in one of his concerts, it sounded so natural for him to stop playing altogether for a few moments in the middle of a piece. The silence fit perfectly with the sound on either side of it. We heard the instrument and we heard the silence around the notes. And then the notes continued.
And there are lots of artists who do this kind of playing - like many of Ozzie's pieces and John Keawe's "I'll Remember You" and Led's "Silver Bells" and Cyril's "Sanoe" and on and on.
For you who have had the forebearance to have read this far, I'll get on with the point: Singing is great if the person is a good singer. But there is another kind of slack key music - the George Winston kind. And a person's voice isn't likely to help George's piano music, nor this kind of slack key playing. And if some people are bored with this kind of instrumental music, to me it's a sad thing that they do not hear the instrument's magic that the artist is releasing. 
Mark (E)
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Edited by - Mark E on 06/21/2005 8:02:08 PM |
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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2005 : 5:30:15 PM
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Glad you posted that, Mark, mainly because it is so close to my way of thinking.
But first - I'd like to respond to a couple of other points -- for sure a set of nahenahe instrumentals will not hold a festival audience. Hell, I lost people with one slow piece last year at SF Aloha Festival. Won't make that mistake again. Small club with good verbal spiel inbetween - maybe. But isn't part of performing learning how to work your audience?
As to voice/instrument -- obviously two different things. I don't want to hear bad guitar playing. I also don't want to hear bad singing. So if you can do both well -- great. If not - do what you do best. (Work of the other stuff on your own time.)
(PLEASE NOTE - I posted a point o clarification a few posts down.)
Now here I will probably get dumped on. For me a huge factor in any kind of music is listening to music that is interesting and that doesn't repeat itself. I have CD's that I never listen to because after a while each song starts sounding like the other. That includes music by "slack key masters." When all the pa'ani's sound interchangeable, I check out. When the melodies start to run into each other -- really bad news. I want to hear something creative when I spend my hard earned $$. (Won't mention names in public, but some of the people touring around are among the CD's I don't listen to.) I also know that this goes against the grain of a lot of people who relegate slack key to "folk" music and love to kanikapila. For me, slack key has the potential to be a vehicle for very moving music, even though for some players that might mean getting "refined." You can take "folk" music, "kick it up a notch" without gutting its soul and end up with something exquisitely beautiful. That's what really captures my interest. (OK - for most of my life I've listen to "classical" music for fun.)
Personally, I prefer to listen to instrumental music first, then beautiful sounding vocals, then vocals that might not sound so good, but carry a lot of life. Definitely that order.
Now back to Mark -- After a while virtuosity for the sake of showmanship gets real old. Keola's 2 instrumental CD's, Ozzie's CD's, Steve Sano's, and the Ozzie-Steve duet albums -- I keep going back to those frequently because of the depth of the arrangements, the creativity and the interesting mixes. All 3 are, in fact, virtuoso level players. But all 3 put the music first.
Last comment. The real test for me is -- does the performance begin to bring tears to my eyes because of it's beauty? Then it's in the center of the target.
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Edited by - RJS on 06/23/2005 07:34:09 AM |
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HerbJr
Aloha
USA
39 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2005 : 01:25:29 AM
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Aloha Everyone,
I've been reading everyone's opinions. It is great that all of you have opinions! To me, music is music. Music is an expression whether if it's vocals acapella, or instruments by itself. I think that a instrument by itself is a voice in a way. If I saw Eric Clapton in concert and he just performed instrumentals for 1 hour, I would be a happy camper!
But, everyone has their own taste.
Herb, Jr. |
Herb Ohta, Jr.
www.herbohtajr.com
www.hojfc.com
www.herbohtajr.net |
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ToeBone
Aloha
USA
12 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2005 : 06:16:21 AM
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Aloha Herb! I think your music is a perfect example of the "festival effect" that was mentioned. I have three of your CDs in my car, Ukulele Dream, which is mostly instrumental and two others where most of the songs have Keoki singing on them.
I almost always play Dream when driving. I'm by myself, with no distractions and I can listen carefully. In that setting I prefer the instrumental music.
On the other hand, when I have seen you play on stage, I really like the vocal addition. The interaction and reparte keeps me focused on the show when there are other social interactions going on (especially wife who always seems to have plenty to say about anything)
Like you, Herb, I could watch a guitar or uke player for an hour solid - or at least until my beer runs out :-)
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Uke that 'tude! |
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chunky monkey
Ha`aha`a
USA
1022 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2005 : 06:39:14 AM
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Aloha e Herb,
Howzit? Just ordered 2 copies of your new Cd with Keoki from Auntie Maria. My Mom and Dad say hi and ask about you all the time(they're getting one of them; you're also a big hit with their friends in Sun Lakes) and they are planning to come over for the Sept Whittier gig with your dad.
Keep in touch. |
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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2005 : 07:32:59 AM
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I want to add an addendum to my previous post -- sometimes writing things on the fly, 'specially during a stressed out time, doesn't make for clarity.
--- The ranting in my post refer to professional performances and recordings. My money has gotten much tighter this year, so my standards and criterea for spending that cash get raised. This especially applies to the part about practicing at home.
--- Sharing music with friends is a different thing altogether. Sharing with friends is much more where you're at in the moment, like all the other parts of friendship, strengths and weaknesses. This kind of thing not only applies to "backyard & kiving rooms," but also to kanikapila, benefits and open mics. I think a good example of this is found in the last 2 open mics we had at Espresso Garden. They were really great events and I trully enjoyed everyone's performance. I'm sure just about all of us felt we blew some parts of our performance, I certainly did, but professional polish is not what that's about.
--- That said, I think the biggest demons I face is holding up professional standards for my own playing. It is really interesting to me that I don't judge others the same way. Part of the fun of life, I guess. (Don't mean to highjack topic, just to clarify the point) |
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