| Author |
 Topic  |
|
|
RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
 Posted - 09/24/2002 : 02:38:20 AM
|
I want to put out something that's been on my mind, and see what kind of reaction it gets. Humor me with the intro if it seems a bit long to you.
A short time ago I was going through some vintage Rubenstein recordings. (I also have a thing for Chopin.) I compared them with some of the last stuff AR did and realized that the early recordings were far superior in almost all ways -- certainly in artistic expression and in unpacking the depth found in the music -- but AR played a bunch of wrong notes in the early recordings. The later recordings were note perfect, but those recordings just lacked power. I then remembered an experience I had back in Chicago. Carlo Maria Guilini was conductor. CMG programmed Brahm's 4th Symphonie with almost no rehearsal. In fact, there was less than 1/2 hour rehearsal and most of that was taken by CMG's verbal descriptions of what was emotionally going on in the music. He ended by saying, "Tomorrow, when we perform this symphony, play every note as if you are making love to it or with it." That performance was the most phenomenal performance of that piece I've heard in over 30 years of hanging around classical music.
So here's the point -- last weekend I hung out with a couple of people into playing Hawaiian music. A lot of discussion about what the right notes were. Some criticism, well intended, when others played the wrong notes. The music sucked. No life.
I think modern recording processes sometimes get us off track. I know Dancing Cat tracxks are note perfect, and I know it takes 10 - 20 tackes on the average, and a whole lot of emgineering time to get them that way. I recently was able to compare Dancing Cat's CD of L. Kwan with one of his old tradewinds CD's -- and I'll take the older recording anyday. Kwan got into some great grooves. I don't think you can get intro a groove if you are worried about playing the wrong notes.
I found a transcript of a lecture by Picasso to young art students in which he speaks of mistakes as the artist's individuality coming through. He encouraged them to copy old masters so that they could see their own mistakes and thereby learn who they are artistically, and maybe personally also.
This is not to excuse sloppy playing. But it is to say that the whole reason for playing at all is to have fun and to share what's in our hearts with other folks.
So, I say that every beginning slack key player should be given (by the slack key fairy, no doubt,) a copy of Ray Kane's video in which he messes up and forgets how a song or two goes. After watching that video they should ask themselves just why Ray Kane is a Master slack key player.
Note for note perfection?
Music from the heart?
I guess by now you know my answer.
Raymond Stovich
San Jose, CA
|
|
|
RichardH
Aloha
USA
15 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2002 : 04:34:09 AM
|
Well said Ray.
The recording equipment will always catch the feeling, as well as the notes. I had a young woman who played guitar and sang her own songs do some recording sessions with me. The first song she played she missed some notes and laughed. Later takes she got perfect, musically, but she was too serious.
We printed the take with the mistakes. I still get a happy chuckle when I hear the song.
The feeling is a huge part of the recording.
As EE Cummings, the poet said:
Since feeling is first,
who pays attention to the syntax of things
will never wholly kiss you.....
Richard Harrison |
Richard
Grass Shack Records
Kealakekua Bay, Hawaii |
 |
|
|
rossasaurus
Lokahi
USA
306 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2002 : 04:43:12 AM
|
Raymond,
Funny you mention Uncle Raymond's video; I just received my copy today from him, and finished watching it just twenty minutes ago. It takes a lot of courage, and knowing who you are, knowing yourself, to allow people to see you make mistakes, and for it to end-up on the video. Gee, he's human too!
As a beginner in slack-key, I think what I've learned most from teachers, to a one, is humility.
Certainly, mistakes are how we learn new ways of doing and being.
btw, the video IS available directly from the Kane's, and is $39.95
find the address here:
http://www.taropatch.net/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=36
Ross |
Edited by - rossasaurus on 09/24/2002 12:38:26 PM |
|
|
|
Admin
Pupule
USA
4551 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2002 : 09:48:51 AM
|
Nice points RJS and well thought out. Whenever I watch Uncle Ray's video, I smile everytime he messes up... not because he messes up but because he's so open and honest about it. Each time I see it, I cannot help but say, "I love Uncle Ray."
For those who do not have the video: - Uncle Ray keeps messing up one segment of a song; second time around, try it again...oops; third time... close, almost got it!
- Then Uncle Ray laughs and explains that he has not played that song in a long time.
- I am quite sure that this video is available from the Kane family.
- I actually prefer this video to the to the Slack Key Secrets of Raymond Kane video because it's exclusively Ray.
Mistakes or no mistakes but straight from the heart. That's slack key! |
Andy |
|
|
|
Pauline Leland
`Olu`olu
USA
783 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2002 : 12:48:48 PM
|
Hmmm... Yes, no, yes, no, yes...
I think this may be why live music is always so much better than recordings. You hear the mistakes made in the heat of the moment, and it really doesn't matter because the passion is coming thru. It may also explain why hearing "virtuoso" playing at breakneck speed is so unsatisfying to me; at that pace the performer can't indulge in the emotion of the music but has to concentrate fully on simply getting fingers to the right place at the right time.
I have downloaded a lot of mp3's, more than 50, from a gifted amateur who plays classical and Latin American music. Some recordings are flawed here and there with an occasional twang on the string or loud string squeak; sometimes he hesitates just a bit and throws off the rhythm. But he plays with feeling. He can control volume, tone, and subtle rhythmic shifts to bring out the emotions of the music, and that's why I enjoy listening so much.
But once in a while, when Winamp is looping thru his tracks for the 3rd time, that twanged note sets my teeth on edge!
------------------------
Aha moment addendum -
Yes, slack key music is very emotional. I've called it pretty, flowing, and have tried to figure out why it attracts me so. Maybe it's the emotion. Maybe that's why a lot of steel string fingerstyle is unsatisfying, the feelings don't flow as purely, it's more a technical exercise. I'll have to think some more on this. |
Pauline |
Edited by - Pauline Leland on 09/24/2002 1:00:28 PM |
|
|
|
cpatch
Ahonui
USA
2187 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2002 : 1:36:10 PM
|
I spoke with Ray's wife Elodia a few weeks ago about the video. It was originally done for a student (the guy you hear talking to Ray from off-camera during the video) who couldn't make it to Ray's house for lessons and was not intended for public release. Later on the student gave the master tapes and rights to Ray as a gift. Ray originally wanted to edit it to remove the mistakes but Elodia convinced him to leave them in, saying that "everyone makes mistakes."
Personally, I'm glad the mistakes are there...they show that even a master makes mistakes, and just as importantly they show how he handles them. Now, when I'm practicing, I can take heart in the fact that I can mess up just like Ray, even if I can't play like him!
Craig
P.S. Those of you who have Keola Beamer's book (the one that isn't written with Mark), will notice that on the CD each song is announced as "take 2" or "take 5" and so forth...there isn't a "take 1" on there! |
Edited by - cpatch on 09/24/2002 1:38:12 PM |
|
|
|
Russell Letson
`Olu`olu
USA
504 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2002 : 5:08:15 PM
|
OK, somebody has to speak up for the obsessive-compulsive/perfectionist side of things. If there were only polar opposites and the choice were a forced binary one--technically-perfect-but-emotionally-sterile or passionately-human-but-sloppy--many of us would probably go for the latter.
But we generally don't have to make that kind of choice, and the working artist who is also a craftsman (and to my mind that phrase ought to constitute a redundancy) works at minimizing the clams while still retaining the feeling. That's why the way to get to Carnegie Hall is to practice, practice, practice.
In live performance, we accept an error level that that we would not find so pleasant in a recording--as Pauline points out, glitches tend to become more noticeable with repeated listening. But a particularly moving performance might minimize the impact of any glitches, and with modern recording technology, the forced choice goes away, since small errors can be eliminated in editing. (This is pretty much the standard approach in the classical recording world.)
Of course, most of us here are amateurs in both senses of the word, and we shouldn't worry too much about reaching the levels of achievement that our mentors have. But one of the reasons we admire them is that they *have* all put in the hours working on their chops. We can love Uncle Ray's humanity for the way he deals with his own errors, but it's not the errors we admire in his music--it's the music itself (the signal, not the noise), the way that he makes the not-very-easy sound effortless, the precision and economy and clarity with which he says what he has to say.
If art were nothing but the expression of emotion, we could all get by with howling at the moon, but it's not and we can't. Technique is one of the ways that emotion gets expressed, and the better our chops, the more of whatever we have inside gets to the outside.
This is getting too long--I have a big red button marked "ESTHETICS" that's very easily pushed thanks to a couple decades of teaching literature and writing to reluctant undergrads who were firmly in the "howling at the moon" camp. Try to make allowances for the old coot.
|
|
|
|
cpatch
Ahonui
USA
2187 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2002 : 7:39:48 PM
|
| I think we all strive for technical perfection expressed with passion (or aloha, in this case)...the original point of this discussion is that too often the latter is lost in the quest for the former. Better to practice imperfectly with aloha (the perfection will come eventually with continued practice) than to allow a focus on perfection to quench the aloha. |
Craig
My goal is to be able to play as well as people think I can. |
Edited by - cpatch on 09/24/2002 8:08:54 PM |
|
|
|
RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2002 : 10:46:32 PM
|
Aloha all,
I'm really enjoying reading the responses to my posting and to the topic as it develops. Thanks.
Raymond
Russell,
I wholeheartedly support Craig's last response. Personally I make it a point to do technical practice just about every day. Scales, chords, picking patterns, etc. When I'm working up a song I do pay attention to the mechanics. But at some point I find I have to say "Screw it" to the mechanics, and play from the heart. (Typically I don't do this in front of others until I have a song's mechanics fairly down, unless I'm looking for feedback on the arrangement.)
The following might put some people off, and I apologize ahead of time, but it is another example of what I mean:
I've have the blessing of having a couple of people come to me for some basic slack key instruction. Two of them really frustrated me -- that is, they are their own worst enemies by doing the same self-defeating behavior over and over. These two people are actually very good players but they are so focused on getting the alternating bass notes, the just right arpeg's, etc, -- they can't let themselves get to the essence of what it's all about. I even took one of the them out on our porch just to try a different context. The other I "loosened up" with 2 beers. Hey, I grew up in the 60's. Anyway, I hope the example makes sense.
The bottom line is that I need to let go of my images of perfection, from whatever source they come, and let what's insaide come out. I suspect I'm not alone in this. If it's presentation is so unskillfull that it sounds bad, sooner or later I will have no audience. I can, however, still express myself just for the hell of it. Sometimes ya just gotta howl at the moon. If I express with skill, and I "have something to say," I will have an audience.
Thanks for listening/reading
Raymond
San Jose, CA
(Russell, not to brag , but ... I've had a book of short stories published that got terrible reviews in the academic journals, half decent reviews in popular venues and has sold out 2 printings, with the publisher beginning to talk of a third printing.)
|
|
|
|
marzullo
`Olu`olu
USA
923 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2002 : 1:26:31 PM
|
aloha all,
well, just to push back the other way, i'm trying to get a clean take to submit for the r.m.m.g.a CD, and i'm enjoying (sort of) the zen of striving for a clean take. i'm just an amateur, and have never really concentrated this hard befoir on technical details like getting a good ring, a clean attack, a good use of dynamic range, and so on. and, of course, i am trying to avoid errors, since an error in a recording is in the same place forever.
the "zen" part jives well with raymond's comments. i don't think that having a beer would help, but i do have to relax and get into the "just press" frame of mind.
a trick that i've been trying is to practice the piece a good 50% faster than i want to play it for the recording. it puts a different spin on the piece, and helps me iron out problems with attack and poor thumb placement.
aloha,
keith
|
Keith |
|
|
|
Admin
Pupule
USA
4551 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2002 : 1:40:10 PM
|
Last night, I tried recording my CDIII track too. Out of about 15 takes, I think there is one that is not error free but probably acceptable. Given that I am not impartial, I'm going to give it one more attempt tonight before mailing it in.
A couple of times I was striving for the Zen thing and ended up playing certain versus too many times and totally lost track of where I was in the song. It's an interesting challenge trying to get a great take.
My trick was to play another song when I felt I was going insane - just to break up the repetition. I figured on the off chance that I got that recorded, I'd have an alternative or song #2. Unfortunately I didn't get that down cleanly either, but it helped keep things fresh when returning for another attempt at song #1. |
Andy |
|
|
|
Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2002 : 3:01:49 PM
|
Great thread!
Here's a recording hint that helps with both the feel and the technical perfection end:
If you have a desktop studio, why not just keep it running while you record? Don't stop to re-do a take, just relax and play.
Make a mistake? No worries, start the section again. Concentrate on capturing the vibe - the notes'll happen, too.
Then listen to everything, and edit together the best bits into one whole take. Digital editing can be completely invisible.
(Also obsessive: I once had to lengthen the final note of a fiddle to match the cut off of the rest of the tune. For what amounted to less than a second of real time I did maybe 10 edits and crossfades. Fooled the fiddler, too.)
BTW, that's the way most of those wonderful old classical recordings were done: cobbing together bits and peices into a complete whole (well, at least the ones done on tape... razor blades are your friend).
For the record, I'm decidedly old school when it comes to recordings - I like it real. I'd rather hear a great performance than a technically great recording.
But I truly love to hear a great performance that is brilliantly recorded.
|
|
|
|
Russell Letson
`Olu`olu
USA
504 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2002 : 3:34:44 PM
|
Glad to hear that I'm not the only one struggling to get a decent take at the last minute. And I second Mark's advice about letting the recording run and just playing--I come closest to getting it right when I'm not fussing with the recorder or thinking "take 27," but just playing until I find the zone. Thank heavens for CoolEdit.
|
|
|
|
Fran Guidry
Ha`aha`a
USA
1579 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2002 : 4:11:30 PM
|
I have to add my endorsement to Mark and Russell's comments about recording "free and easy" and editing to get the final result. I do individual takes, but if I goof on a section I try to repeat it and keep going. Then I use Cool Edit to eliminate the goofs.
When I first began working with Cool Edit I used "cut and paste" like we do in our word processors, but I've since learned about cue lists and play lists. Now I go through a track and create a list of good cues and bad ones, then create a play list that only includes the good ones. I don't try for perfection, but I get rid of the most egregious blunders.
This approach takes time, though. Sometimes it's hard to buckle down and edit a track for an hour or so, when I could cut 10 retakes in that time, but eventually I realize that I'm never going to get one that doesn't require edits - just live with it, and thank bits and bytes I don't have to do it with a razor blade and tape.
Fran
|
E ho`okani pila kakou ma Kaleponi
Slack Key Guitar in California - www.kaleponi.com
Slack Key on YouTube
Homebrewed Music Blog |
|
|
|
marzullo
`Olu`olu
USA
923 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2002 : 4:53:04 PM
|
this sounds fun! but, i have to be in beautiful baltimore this sunday, and so won't have the
time to do the editing. i'll play with this when i get back.
i let one of my students listen to one of the takes on MD, and she asked at the end "i didn't hear the drum track!"
i guess i should be doing hawaiian war chant...
keith
|
Keith |
|
|
|
RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2002 : 8:20:09 PM
|
What is cool edit?
Raymond
Oops. just read that string! |
Edited by - RJS on 09/25/2002 8:24:19 PM |
|
|
| |
Topic |
|
|
|
Topic Locked
