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Auntie Maria
Ha`aha`a
USA
1918 Posts |
 Posted - 11/20/2002 : 3:05:16 PM
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Okay, I gotta jump on my soapbox -- indulge me, 'kay?
It wasn't until _after_ I gave all the info regarding the Kwan recording, that I realized that the original poster said he was gathering this info -- for his _CD_ of this album. My fault for not reading the entire post...I never would have supplied the information, had I be aware of the situation.
This recording was never released in CD format, so that CD is pirated, illegal, and _shame_ on whoever violated that copyright. Regardless of whether or not you approve, the legal fact is that copying of _any_ recording (regardless of the reason/excuse given) is still illegal. Doubt me? Email Flip McDiarmid at Hula Records; Keali`i Reichel of Punahele Productions; Jon de Mello at Mountain Apple Company and get this straight from those who own the record labels. Heck, there are plenny laws with which I disagree, but the law is the law -- like it, or not.
Would you photocopy an entire book? Probably not...then why copy a recording? If you truly love and support Hawaiian music, extend that support to the musicians who created it, and _pay_ for their recordings, instead of stealing from them.
-- auntie maria (stepping off soapbox)
HAWAIIAN MUSIC ISLAND www.mele.com
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Auntie Maria
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My "Aloha Kaua`i" radio show streams FREE online every Thu & Fri 7-9am (HST)
www.kkcr.org - Kaua`i Community Radio
"Like" Aloha Kauai on Facebook, for playlists and news/info about island music and musicians!
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Pauline Leland
`Olu`olu
USA
783 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2002 : 3:34:11 PM
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Gotta agree, irksome as it is sometimes.
Copyright is a current topic on three of the four music forums I visit regularly and it should be on the fourth. |
Pauline |
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kihoalukid
Lokahi
USA
289 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2002 : 3:36:38 PM
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| i imagine he probably just made a cd from his own copy of the album or cassette for his own personal use. no problem with that. selling pirated copys tho is another story. |
Lee |
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Admin
Pupule
USA
4551 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2002 : 3:44:20 PM
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As a fan site of Hawaiian slack key and Hawaiian music, the opening page of TaroPatch.net states, "Support local artists by puchasing CDs, books, videos. Please discourage illegal copying."
As suggested by kihoalukid, hopefully it is simply a copy made for personal use. I've been thinking about doing this for some of my own LPs if I ever find the time. |
Andy |
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cpatch
Ahonui
USA
2187 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2002 : 3:57:08 PM
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I knew this was coming. This particular CD is a copy of the LP that was given to me as a gift by a friend. I have one other LP copy on CD that was also given to me and three more that are copies of LPs that I purchased through eBay.
The two copies I have that I don't have the original LPs for are both Tradewinds releases. As we all know, the Tradewinds masters have been destroyed and the copyright for them apparently followed Margaret Williams to her grave. So we're in a gray area here (out-of-print does not mean out-of-copyright, but in this case there is no clear current copyright holder) and if someone wants to enlighten me as to the precise legalities of this gray area I'm more than happy to listen...I am a staunch defender of copyright law, being a publisher and author myself, and detest pirating. I still have an open search on eBay and several used record sites for both LPs I have been given copies of and plan on buying copies if and when they turn up. I'm not sure, however, that this is legally necessary in this particular case. Better to be safe than sorry though. |
Craig
My goal is to be able to play as well as people think I can. |
Edited by - cpatch on 11/20/2002 4:08:20 PM |
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Jeff Watkins
Aloha
37 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2002 : 4:51:39 PM
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Aloha no!
I agree that copying any artists work for profit is both illegal and immoral. However, consider my case: My wife has come to love kika ki ho'alu so much that she "borrows" MY CDs. So, to compromise, she copies selected works from "our" CDs onto a CD for her own library. Are we to buy two identical CDs in my family?
E malama pono. |
Jeff Watkins |
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cpatch
Ahonui
USA
2187 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2002 : 5:00:59 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeff Watkins
Are we to buy two identical CDs in my family?
No, you are permitted to make copies of something you have paid for for your own use and your wife and immediate family would be considered part of "your own". You can usually resolve most copyright issues by asking the question: "By doing this am I preventing a sale of this work that would benefit the author/artist?" In the case of making a copy for a friend you would be. In the case of your wife creating a compilation CD of her favorite songs you wouldn't be. |
Craig
My goal is to be able to play as well as people think I can. |
Edited by - cpatch on 11/20/2002 6:10:36 PM |
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Auntie Maria
Ha`aha`a
USA
1918 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2002 : 5:55:10 PM
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Copying -- regardless of intent of use -- is illegal under the US Copyright Law. The _only_ exception (as I understand it) is given to educational institutions.
Sadly, the "okay if it's for personal use" myth has been repeated so often, many believe it to be true...but it is not.
Resist the urge to burn your own CD; gracefully refuse the "gift" of one, if offered. And as you post to forums such as this, or have conversations with friends/family about music, help educate others about copyrighted music releases, too.
Okay...I'm really, really getting off the soapbox now. You guys are great!!
-- auntie maria
HAWAIIAN MUSIC ISLAND www.mele.com |
Auntie Maria
===================
My "Aloha Kaua`i" radio show streams FREE online every Thu & Fri 7-9am (HST)
www.kkcr.org - Kaua`i Community Radio
"Like" Aloha Kauai on Facebook, for playlists and news/info about island music and musicians!
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marzullo
`Olu`olu
USA
923 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2002 : 6:01:49 PM
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aloha e auntie,
quote:
Would you photocopy an entire book?
auwe, people do. i've seen a lot of folks carrying around a photocopied version of ozzie's book... it's sad.
keith
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Keith |
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Admin
Pupule
USA
4551 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2002 : 6:33:19 PM
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Getting involved in these legal discussions is never much fun. Nevertheless, you all always help me learn something. I did a quick search and this is the first link I found. I'm sure there are better, but if anyone is interested in reading more: Copying Music to CD: The Right, the Wrong, and the Law.
According to this article, copying an LP that you own for archival purposes would probably constitute "fair use" and would be within the law. Of course, the law is always subject to interpretation. Moreover, the article does not address cpatch's question regarding Tradewinds works. |
Andy |
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cpatch
Ahonui
USA
2187 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2002 : 6:33:40 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Auntie Maria
Copying -- regardless of intent of use -- is illegal under the US Copyright Law. The _only_ exception (as I understand it) is given to educational institutions.
This is not true...if you read through the copyright law you will find that there are quite a few cases where copying is legal, although the majority of them are related to excerpts or modified versions (parody). None of these exceptions apply to what we're talking about here, however.
quote:
Sadly, the "okay if it's for personal use" myth has been repeated so often, many believe it to be true...but it is not.
It depends on what you mean by "personal use". If you mean copying a friend's CD and promising not to pass it on to anyone else then you are correct. If you mean copying an LP you own to CD or your MP3 player then you are mistaken...this form of personal use is covered in the 1992 Audio Home Recording Act. Specifically, you have the right to make copies of a recording you own for your personal use. In other words, you have every right to burn copies of your LP to CD as long as you keep the copies to yourself.
The question still remains as to what the legal state of the Tradewinds recordings is. I honestly don't know, but as I said in my original post I am open to being educated. |
Craig
My goal is to be able to play as well as people think I can. |
Edited by - cpatch on 11/20/2002 6:34:36 PM |
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ohanabrown
Lokahi
281 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2002 : 11:48:03 PM
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Aloha Craig,
I know your intentions are good! And this is for your own personal use, and not to make money. So don't worrie about it. You are trying to learn another culture, And sometimes this is the only way that you can accomplish it.
Malama Pono!
Kevin
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Kevin K. Brown |
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cpatch
Ahonui
USA
2187 Posts |
Posted - 11/21/2002 : 2:27:58 PM
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| Mahalo Kevin...I completely understand and support Auntie Maria in her passion to preserve artist's rights but as you point out, I'm not the enemy. |
Craig
My goal is to be able to play as well as people think I can. |
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cmdrpiffle
`Olu`olu
USA
553 Posts |
Posted - 11/25/2002 : 7:24:11 PM
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aloha Craig,
No, you are not the enemy. It amazes me to see all of the discussion of copying media for any type of use. Perhaps it is time for certain institutions to open their eyes to reality.
Has anyone noticed the present difficulties the RIAA is having with this issue? The industry leads the charge for copyright enforcement. The signed 'artists' have to parrot the industry policy. The tighter the control, the more money goes to the record label, and the artist.
Thats the theory. The reality is quite different. Before you comfort yourself repeating some record labels company line, consider this.
The RIAA, and its comglomeration of labels are bleeding badly. It is not because people are taking money out of their pockets by recording media themselves. It is because the group, as a whole is putting out an inferior product, IE mainstream recorded music. Its a matter of money. Consumers simply arent expending the same percentage of income for media that they once did. Ask yourself how many thousands of interesting artists and musicians never make the demographic 'cut' that is determined by the industry. The industry who decides what YOU will be able to purchase.
Does the world need another Mariah Carey CD? That of course is subjective. How about 'Joe Blow and the Slack Key Players? Any guesses on which artist will be picked up, marketed to death and shoved in our faces?
Personally, I have purchased a great dollar amount of Hawaiian music. That is, after I found out that Hawaiian music existed. I found out from a friend who went to Hawaii and purchased a HAPA cassette. He cut me a copy. For free. Didnt pay a cent for it. Since that day in 96, I have gone on to purchase CD's from probably 10 different Hawaiian artists. Maybe a total of say 25 CD's.
Thats how the music industry really works. Its called word of mouth. Someone likes something and then turns on someone else to that something. That other person is not going to be able to accrue all of their music for free. They will find something they like, and purchase it. Along the line, they will get someone else interested too. It is self replicating.
That is the reality. Want to totally enforce not/re-recording music media and the industry would die. But you would still get Mariah Carey, at $21.99, and in a neat little package.
If cutting the occasional cd really hurt the industry, they would have been dead long ago in this age of mini-discs, Mp3's, and high tech gear.
Yes record labels are losing a lot of money. Plenty of documented overmarketed flops, not to mention Sony Musics almost one billion dollar buy out of Michael Jacksons contract.
The wonderful people I read daily on this site have DONE MORE to funnel money to the artists and labels of Hawaiian music, than any amount of paid advertising could have ever done. Some of these people have no doubt along the way cut a recording for someone else.
In retail, it is known as the rule of 12's. For every 'positive' thing, IE, a CD, 12 other people will hear of it from one person.
Want to know where the industry is really going? Consider Tom Petty. A 'mainstream' artist by most definitions. He is doing something that has never been done in the history of recording. He is going on tour, a US tour, without any sponsor. He stated in part that his motive for doing so was to send a message to the RIAA. That message is to stop ripping off the artists.
I understand that my views are not in line with this sites policy. I also understand how the real world works. When I read the oft repeated admonishments of some copyright law, or record label rule, repeated over and over like good children falling into line...
Who are you kidding?
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my Poodle is smarter than your honor student |
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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 11/26/2002 : 5:43:56 PM
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I fully support artist's getting paid for their work. Maybe, however, it would be a good thing to get in public the figures of how much artists really get in royalties. I ripped off a CD, then sent the artist a check for $3.00 with a note that I was short of cash and I didn't want to support a marketing mill but I also didn't want the artist to suffer. His sect'y sent me a refund of over half, stating that he didn't want to keep more than the recording company would pay in royalty.I'm getting quite tired of the crap the recording industry is puting out. Greed is greed -- and in this case is outright stupid. This is borm out by an insider's point of view in the two articles by Janice Ian clearly demonstrating how putting things out there for free HELPS SELL albums. The bloodsuckers want every penny and aren't willing to put together enough really artful music to sell albums. I'm to the point that I will not purchase a CD that is "copy protected." That includes Keali'i Reichel, thugh I don't necessarily consider him a bloodsucker -- just, perhaps, a bit over greedy.
Raymond S.
San Jose |
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oaklandslacker
Aloha
China
47 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2002 : 03:24:28 AM
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Just a couple hours ago, I picked up a practically untouched LP of "Nanakuli's Raymond Kane" from the Berkeley Rasputin. This LP is out of print, and no CD has ever been made for it.
I was wondering, just hypothetically, is it OK to make copies of the LP? Tradewinds Records doesn't exist any more, so perhaps it would be legally OK. Also, getting into the morals, only used copies exist, and Ray Kane's not making any used-LP royalties.
Either way, it's a shame that some great old Hawaiian albums can only be found in used record bins. For the *really* old (78s of Hawaiian novelty recordings) music that's gone Public Domain, a Bay Area guy named Dave Stewart self-released an MP3 disk, at http://www.beerrecords.com/ . It would be great if something like that could be done with the out-of-print Hawaiian LPs. Anybody know how the law works?
While I'm at it, Berkeley's Rasputin still has some cool old Hawaiian LP's that I didn't quite have the money for. Anybody in the area should check it out. |
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