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rendesvous1840
Ha`aha`a
USA
1055 Posts |
 Posted - 03/01/2007 : 12:31:11 PM
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I think the real issue of a 'canon' is to have enough command of a fair number of tunes that are regular standards at a kani ka pila, that those of us who are new can still join in enough to not feel we had nothing to contribute. I've spent many an old time or bluegrass jam playing rythem when I didn't know enough of a melody to take a solo. But knowing or hearing the chord changes allowed me to play rythem and enjoy listening to others play solo's, and feel I helped in my own way. Plus, if you only know a solo part, you won't play much. No group wants one person to play all the leads in a jam session. When it's your turn to call the next tune, you choose one you're either very comfortable playing, or one you really want to learn.I've learned songs that way, calling for them over a period of time, until I had the tune fixed in my mind. I've found it a lot harder with Hawai'ian music because there are no jams in our area. I can find a lot of other stuff locally.
If I do find a kani ka pila, I want to join in, and at least play back up for the better players. Playing alone, a book like He Mele Aloha is invaluable. Use it to play along with CD's. You may need to change keys for different recordings, but at least you'll have the changes in front of you. Start with (gasp)standard tuning and capo when necessary. As hearing chord changes gets easier, you'll refer to the book less often. You learn quicker with other players. Paul |
Edited by - rendesvous1840 on 03/07/2007 12:47:57 PM |
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Karl Monetti
`Olu`olu
USA
756 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2007 : 3:29:33 PM
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On second thought, i understand the need for someone new to a type of music to try to identify what one should probably know about that type of music. But is still boils down to something i once heard Jethro Burns say on the radio. He was playing with Chet Atkins (his brother-in-law) on Prairie Home Companion. Jethro is a primo mandolin player and formerly of the duo, Homer and Jethro, who murdered any number of "standards" in their own right. Here is his quote;
"I am now going to do a medley of four songs. I will do them in the order of one, two, three, and four. THe first tune will be Roanoke, by Bill MOnroe. Then I will play (sorry i forgot the name) by BIll Monroe, then I will play (another tune) by Bill Monroe. Then I'm going to play something that I like!" |
Karl
Frozen North |
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mike2jb
Lokahi
USA
213 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2007 : 7:56:37 PM
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Karl-
I think I get your point, but truly there must be some accepted “standards” for Jethro to murder them in the first place.
And if I as a beginner murder a song there will be a different reaction from the one that comes from a "murder" at the hands of an accomplished musician like Jethro who has demonstrated he already knows the standards backwards and forwards.
That’s really the only reason I brought this up in the first place—I was wondering what songs everyone would agree fit in the category of “standards” and why. I’m catching on now that it’s really more of a watch-and-learn type of thing that perhaps no one here can define.
Stay warm.
-Mike
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Reid
Ha`aha`a
Andorra
1526 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2007 : 04:03:28 AM
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No Mike, it *is* definable - or, I should say, selectable. You have the right idea. There is a false dichotomy going on in this thread and I can't understand why. These 2 issues are logically separable. Reread my first post in this thread - which nobody referred to as of yet, so I guess nobody gives a HRA about logic.
Doesn't anybody think that Mark and Keola had a didactic principle they were following in their book? Or Ozzie? or Ron Loo? They did not just select songs they liked, although they might have liked them. They selected songs, or composed, or arranged them in ways that illustrated slack key techniques and principles. Ron's major thrust is in ascending order of difficulty - still illustrating the basic principles but adding more difficult ones. And he adds a few substyles. Ozzie's also has those two threads: one is kani ki `hoalu (not capitalized here, because I mean it to illustrate what Ozzie was doing - the sound of slack key - which really means the technique and notes and chord selection, and other things that characterize slack key). The other is the "range" of slack key - using different tunings and illustrating different sub-styles, including, as Ron does, the Auntie Alice style, for lack of a better title. Mark and Keola explicitly say (I am paraphrasing) that their pieces are basic, stripped down arrangements that should give you an idea of how slack key songs are constructed, but that they expect you to elaborate on them and make them your own. They also give illustrations in selected popular tunings.
On the other hand, Mark Hanson's book, although giving a brief technical description of each tuning used, *is* a collection of "slack key songs I like in different tunings".
What is so hard about discerning the difference?
...Reid |
Edited by - Reid on 03/07/2007 04:34:56 AM |
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thumbstruck
Ahonui
USA
2165 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2007 : 04:56:51 AM
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I had the opportunity to talk with Uncle Tom Kamahaku, of Vancouver, WA, a while back. I asked him, "Uncle, which songs you play?" He answered, "We don't know da names, we jus' play'em!"
The guy that showed me told me, "no forget da vamp," and "can play any kine 'long as it fit."
Led says, "Jus' press."
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Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2007 : 08:16:12 AM
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quote:
I was wondering what songs everyone would agree fit in the category of “standards” and why. I’m catching on now that it’s really more of a watch-and-learn type of thing that perhaps no one here can define.
Yo -- I think I'd agree with Reid on this; namely for some reason the post went into something unrelated to your original question.
To answer it (again): Yes. There are a number of "standard" Hawaiian songs... including a number of instrumental slack key pieces -- that everybody in the tradition knows.
What I mean is this: like any folk music, folks get together and play stuff informaly. Over time, a set bunch of songs become the ones they all play. If you want, you can call 'em "standards," or "the canon," or just "da kine." And they will not necessarily be the same ones all us mainland slack heads know!
Why? Because we mainland folks learn "the songs we like" from CDs and books and TAB and etc... so the repertoire is preselected. Whereas people in the tradition learn by playing along with what everyone is playing... which changes over time.
Case in point: a couple years ago Kevin Brown asked me to come up and play with him and Pekelo, who I'd just met -- then he walked off the stage. Pekelo asks me to play something. I played "Yellow Ginger Lei" the way I learned it.. from Leonard Kwan's CD. Pekelo said "Wow, you don't hear that old stuff any more."
Yet I'd bet most of the slackers on taropatch play it that way -- or like Keola.
So your question is actually dead on. Not to toot my horn, but here's the list of songs I did for the new book and CD.
1) Pua Lena/Kealoha/E Huli Ho‘i Mai/Mauna Loa
2) Maunaloa/Pauoa Liko Ka Lehua
3) Kowali
4) Paniolo Slack Key (Malasadas)
5) Ku‘u Lei Awapuhi Melemele (My Yellow Ginger Lei)
6) Ahe Lau Makani
7) Nanea Kou Maka I Ka Le‘ale‘a
8) Moloka‘i Waltz
9) Moana Chimes
10) Old Timer’s Hula/Slack Key Hula
11) Hula Blues
12) Taro Patch Blues
13) Tiare Tahiti
14) Kaulana Na Pua
15) Playful Popoki
16 ‘Ulupalakua
17) Kanaka Waiwai
18) Kimo’s Slack Key
19) Papakolea
Of these, a couple are originals (Pua Lena, Playful Popoki and Taropatch Blues), one's fairly obscure (Tiare Tahiti), and one's not ususally played in jams (Kaulana Na Pua). Granted, the arrangements and tunings are all over the map, but the remaining songs can easily be called standards and would be a good place to start.
To these, I'd add Manini, Hi`ilawe, Akaka Falls, Sase, Livin' on Easy, Manuela Boy, Opihi Moemoe, Henehene Kou Aka, Makee Ailana, Radio Hula, Maori Brown Eyes, Sweet Someone... and any number of songs by Dennis Kamakahi and Bob Marley and any other old pop, doo wop or country song popular when the assembeld group was young. Plus anything some Aunty might want to dance.
Can I play e'm all? Usually after I've heard it through once. (That's another topic.) Do I like all of 'em? Depends on how well we all play 'em.
Notice that these songs are not necessarily the ones in my performing -- or even playing-around-the-house-for-fun -- repertoire. These are the songs I expect to play when I'm playing with friends. So I make a point of being familiar with 'em.
Oh, and I've heard Uncle Tom play. He plays the "standards." Even if he can't always remember the names. That's what make's 'em standards.
Hope that answers your question.
Mark
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mike2jb
Lokahi
USA
213 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2007 : 8:01:02 PM
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| Many thanks, guys, for the thoughtful answers and comments. |
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hapakid
Luna Ho`omalu
USA
1533 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2007 : 9:44:27 PM
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I haven't followed all the Sociology 103 discussion threads here, but I have my two cents. In the bigger picture of why I play what I play, I describe my song choices as falling into a few categories (Hawaiian and non-Hawaiian) in order of importance:
1. Family songs, those that have been part of my family or sung by another family member.
2. Songs I've been taught by a teacher or another player I respect.
3. Songs about places I've been and want to remember.
4. Songs that I like to listen to.
5. Songs I think will be entertaining if/when I get up on stage.
Jesse Tinsley |
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Reid
Ha`aha`a
Andorra
1526 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2007 : 04:00:23 AM
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Sarah and I have been at the jam led by Kevin and Uncle Sol for about 12 years - before we could play (but we had listened to lots of CDs)- we came to learn. First at the Bailey House in Wailuku and then at Waihe`e. We were the only mainlanders in the beginning. Some things we learned:
Dancing Cat songs, except for Sonny's and Leonard's, were rarely played (Leonard, himself, had played at the kanikapila before we started). After Sarah learned how to play the guitar and speak the language (the latter came first), of the the songs played, we had listened to most before (because we had nearly bought 10 tons of CDs), but she only knew how to participate in(except for rhythm) about 1/3 of the songs - in which she could take a lead turn or initiate songs herself. That fraction stayed about the same forever - even though the songs changed. The reason is that the people changed - both who came and what they knew. So, the private repertoires and choices drove the action. When Sarah had a repertoire of about 8 hours worth of songs (really - she could play without stop for 4 hours before she got tired, and she still knew how to do lots more), the fraction at a jam was still about 1/3 , but she (and I, since I had learned how to be a hack) could do slightly more complex things like fills, vamps(of course), single string melody lines that harmonized, etc. (I was not nearly as good as anyone else).
When we had a wonderful dinner and evening campfire jam with Kevin and Ikaika and Sheldon and their families at Waihe'e Park one year, the situation changed. Sarah, and they, had nearly 100% the same repertoire. That's because we had spent many years with Kevin. Ikaika chose different songs, though, because he is of a different generation. And, then, *everyone* played backup.
A few years ago, Uncle Sol generously gave us a copy of his songbook. We only knew about 10% of the songs in it. They were the ones he chose at the jam, but they were the favorites of yet another generation.
So, if you don't live in Hawai`i, you have to buy and listen to 100s of CDs. You have to have at least a grasp of the language and meaning (or else you do stupid things, like emphasize the wrong part, or whatever), you have to GO THERE a LOT and hook up with the right people - blend into the society and learn from them.
Mark's additions, in his paragraph above, are very important. Because they are archetype examples of subgenres of songs and you will hear many other songs that are like them. For instance, Manini is like Mark's Matt's Bounce, Ozzie has one in his book,Uncle Ray inserts those hammer/pull-off 3rd sequences in Punahele,Sonny did them in Ho`omalu Slack Key, everyone knows those sequences. I happen to like Matt's Bounce best - especially since it has more variations, but that's another issue. *Everyone* knows Opihi Moemoe and there are many jazzy songs like it. The same goes for most of the rest of Mark's list.
How do you know all this - you gotta listen, listen, listen and use your brain - if you are not there all the time. And you have to go there a lot, too. Buy a lot of slack key CDs, buy every slack key video, buy every instruction book (we have every one ever written. There is no shortcut. There is no such thing as Jes' Press - play from the heart - for people who are not within the society, or such accomplished musicians that the could play along with anything. Saying Jes' Press, as an answer to a malihini's questions about slack key, is a form of arrogance or dismissal. I wish those words had never been thought up, and when someone writes it here, they might be just parroting a snappy phrase that they don't think deeply about (for which I pity them), or I know that I never want to know those people personally.
There are answers to these questions, but you gotta work your butt off if you are initially an outsider and want to be an insider. If you just want to dabble, you don't have to do much, but that is true of everything.
...Reid |
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mike2jb
Lokahi
USA
213 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2007 : 12:44:02 PM
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quote:
There is no shortcut. There is no such thing as Jes' Press - play from the heart - for people who are not within the society, or such accomplished musicians that the could play along with anything.
No fooling, Reid. Thanks for the insights and for the glimpse into how Sarah’s abilities to participate in a jam gradually progressed.
Your advice on do’s and don’ts rings true with my limited experience. I think I’ve come to Hawaiian music like a lot of mainlanders-- by a route very different from folks in the islands or with roots there. For a long time I listened to lots and lots of CD’s (big-time commuter, so I did a ton of in-the-driver’s-seat listening) with a very heavy Dancing Cat diet for years. But living an ocean away from the source, what else was there? This was long before I stumbled onto mele.com (or before there was any “.com” for that matter).
And my trips to Hawaii were often spent in a condo or whatever, completely surrounded by other mainlanders. (Refer to Wanda's very apt post on this subject in another forum.)
I’m trying to reform, and your descriptions of your musical journey here and elsewhere help. And Sarah has given me a hand with the language.
Jesse-- You’re indeed fortunate to have family songs you can hold onto (my family songs mostly involve drinkin’, cheatin’ and pick-ups). Sorry if this discussion turned into a sociology class. No prerequisites required, I promise.  But I do think my original question was a valid one for someone like me with no roots in Hawaii: if I want to play along with most songs that are common knowledge to most players (call them “standards” or whatever), and I can only learn maybe one a month or one a week, how long will I have to be learning basics before I can keep up? Reid’s post gives me a good idea.
-Mike
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Peter Medeiros
`Olu`olu
546 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2007 : 2:10:55 PM
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Well said Reid, this is true for not just for you guys from the mainland, but anybody here in Hawaii who is outside of the tradition. I'd like to get this part of the Is there such a thing as a slack key "canon" out of the way. My answer is no, like many of you have already concluded. That term is too over the top. Are there standard songs? Yes, and the list changes as one might expect overtime
I teach, as what some of my long time students have termed it, "hardcore slack key" to anywhere between forty to sixty university students over a school year. And through the decades that I've been teaching slack key here it is obvious to me that there are significant differences in the rate of progress (or how one how to deals with the learning curve) between new students from outside the tradition- both from Hawaii or different parts of the world -- and those new students who come from the traditions of Hawaiian music and dance. The exception for this discussion would be the normal music student who can read music.
For the beginning course, they all have a fundamentals repertoire and it is the same for all of them. How quickly they understand the concepts may be determined by their experience, where they are from and whether or not they can read music. If the students can read music than they have an advantage over the other students. They are able to sit down and do a cold read of any of the slack key arrangements that I may have written in a reasonably good presentation.
The malihini, whether they come from Hawaii or elsewhere, have much more to learn (or you could say overcome) before they become fluent in their playing. However, most succeed in my classes because they realize that learning slack key actually depends on how much work they put into it in order to receive their credits. It is because of the credit incentive plus the fact they are graded (do we know high our GPAs are?) and that they are playing among their peers that they are motivated.
But it is the kids who are from the Hawaiian music and dance traditions, the host culture, who have a leg up on everybody, because they pretty much know or have heard the songs before. Their learning curve is not as steep, because they are what we call ma‘a (accustomed) to the music -- they know the words, the phrasing and the pace of the music. They know how the music breathes, even though they may come from a different generation than the students I first taught years ago. As an aside,the Kamehameha Schools graduates in my classes, have less difficulty singing while playing than graduates of other high schools. That's simply because they've come from a curriculumn that embraces the Hawaiian culture. Other students who are from hula halaus or Hawaiian Studies are also ahead of the class curve because of their exposure to the Hawaiian arts. It is these guys here who can sit down and jam for hours on end -- they have a common bond.
There's not too much more I could add to what you and Mark have contributed to this thread, other than I agree that the term "jes' press" can be dismissive and arrogant. It probably didn't take on that connotation until later. This has been a pretty good thread.
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Menpachi Man
Lokahi
274 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2007 : 5:23:50 PM
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Me, I one local guy on da mainland fo long time. To illustrate some stuff discussed.
When I go home my once a year for a month, dis is wot happens:
Me: < talking hawaii pigin > (making conversation in local pidgin)
Friends: Eh brah, you sound funneh kine ! (your pidgin is not local anymore)
Me: Wachu mean, I sound funny kine?
Friends/relatives: You sound like one haole. (Your pronunciation sounds like a mainlander)
Me: nah, I no sound like one haole. I no talk $10 words. (Defiant: I don't sound like a mainlander, they use bigger words then me)
Friends: <Crack up laughing>
.....
Playin Music:
Friends: Eh Brah, you sound funneh kine! (Your playing does not sound right)
Me: Wachu mean funny kine?
Friends: You no mo style! (you cannot play like before, does not sound Hawaiian)
Me: whoa ... my playing all bus up den. (My playing must sound terrible).
A couple weeks later (I usually go back a month)
Friends: Eh brah, you sound regulah again. (You are sounding local again)
Me: No can help. I stick around you guys ... can tahk regulah now. (staying with ohana, I am getting back to normal)
Playin guitar:
Friends: Eh brah, you gettin style again!
Me: Ah no can help, back to normal again. (I came back home and relaxed)
Jus press? (Local: jus' praas)
Me, Jammin with friends on new stuff: I makin too many mistakes
Friends: No shame brah!! Jus prass!! (Never mind the mistakes, you gotta keep on playing to get it right, we are going to tolerate it)
Me: whoa, i dunno if i can get em. (Don't know if I can do this)
Friends: <laughin> Jus' prass brah! (You gotta practice a lot of hours to get it !!)
Singing?
I only sing when evil spirits are around. It scares them away. |
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Menpachi Man
Lokahi
274 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2007 : 6:10:59 PM
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Play from da heart...
Yeah, to get real good essence you gotta mingle with da locals, jus like with any other cultural music, but a lot of people don't have da kala (money) to go to Hawaii often.
Play from da heart ?
Me: I dunno ... my playin sound junk!
Friends: Jus' play from da heart (you play your best, we will appreciate it! We accept your playin, as long as you try your bestest)
I am just a backyard player in Hawaii, this is some of our normal conversations ...
Phrases:
Play from da heart
Jus prass
Easeh brah (easily as Haole Boy says) (shakah sign)
All have multiple meanings, jus' like aloha.
Jus some simple opinions from a homesick fisherman ... I may be all white-washed (no mo fish) so don't take me too seriously. |
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Menpachi Man
Lokahi
274 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2007 : 7:32:22 PM
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More on "playing from da heart" .. from an obscure local scene ... stuff you don't hear about.
My mom had an excellent voice and singing skills, until she had a stroke. One New Year's eve we had kanikapila, karaoke. She wanted to sing again. Was not worth a damn from a musical standpoint due to the stroke. But when she finshed .... everyone applauded. You know why? She "sang from da heart".
So, for the people who cannot play good, like me ... jus praas ... play from da heart .... have some good fun with da music ... nahe nahe ... easeh, play some simple tunes that you enjoy. No worry about da professionals or big names. Jus' prass (keep on practicing to the best of what you can do within your limits), enjoy your repetoire, that's what music is about. That will be your cannon.
Aloha (heart)-- acceptance -- encouragement -- enjoyment of the music and other aspects of living, all things positive.
(from local, non-professional, backyard player) |
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thumbstruck
Ahonui
USA
2165 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2007 : 09:51:05 AM
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| Both Reid and Mempachi Man have nailed it. Immerse yourself in the music and culture (food helps!) and listen a lot. I started playing back in 1974 on a borrowed Silvertone. Hanging out and eating were part of it. I listened to the 2 records I had (Ray Kane's "Black" and Leonard Kwan's "Red") over and over. I learned in a jamming context. Jamming is the best way of sharing music because it is direct communication. Beginners cannot afford to be fearful of playing. Little kids fall down all the time when they are learning to walk (good thing they're buit close to the ground). In our digitized, over produced, perfectionist, mechanized, dehumanized "modern" world we seldom allow ourselves the the joys of being a novice. Life is too short not to have fun. Mistakes teach (I've found some cool licks that way). Jus' praas. (Mahalo, Mempachi Man fo' da phonics lesson.) My Dad told me that music was best when it was with friends. Performing is good, but the audience rarely "gets" it. He'd been a professional musician for over 40 years. |
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