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mike2jb
Lokahi
USA
213 Posts |
 Posted - 03/23/2007 : 04:57:19 AM
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This thread answers questions I’ve had, such as why some of Dennis Kamakahi’s songs sprinkle in a little end-line rhyme as in English, whereas other songs like “Hi`ilawe” contain groups of syllables inside of lines that “rhyme” with syllables in the next verse:
“… a he lei `ä`ï na ke kupuna.
No Puna ke `ala i hali `ia mai …”
Keola D, is that what you meant by “linked assonance?”
I wonder if rhyming is more “valued” as a device in English songs than in Hawaiian because rhymes are relatively rare in English speech. Hawaiian has many times fewer possible syllables than English, because of the way syllables are formed, and so it’s more likely that random words will simply rhyme by chance in Hawaiian. If chance rhyming in speech is frequent, maybe it’s not seen as “special” and so is less often used as a poetic device. Just wondering.
By the way, I do think this thread is more than just an intellectual discussion. Of course there is variation in usage, but for most of us on this board, Hawaiian is a foreign language and we may not recognize the range of variation.
If Mick Jagger sings “I Can't Get No Satisfaction,” everyone recognizes that this is non-standard, but grammatical, English. If Borat sings “I Not Be Get Many Satisfactions Please,” it’s comical. I don’t want to be Borat in Hawaiian.
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Edited by - mike2jb on 03/23/2007 05:10:48 AM |
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keoladonaghy
Lokahi
257 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2007 : 06:39:08 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by mike2jb
This thread answers questions I’ve had, such as why some of Dennis Kamakahi’s songs sprinkle in a little end-line rhyme as in English, whereas other songs like “Hi`ilawe” contain groups of syllables inside of lines that “rhyme” with syllables in the next verse:
“… a he lei `ä`ï na ke kupuna.
No Puna ke `ala i hali `ia mai …”
Keola D, is that what you meant by “linked assonance?”
I wonder if rhyming is more “valued” as a device in English songs than in Hawaiian because rhymes are relatively rare in English speech. Hawaiian has many times fewer possible syllables than English, because of the way syllables are formed, and so it’s more likely that random words will simply rhyme by chance in Hawaiian. If chance rhyming in speech is frequent, maybe it’s not seen as “special” and so is less often used as a poetic device. Just wondering.
By the way, I do think this thread is more than just an intellectual discussion. Of course there is variation in usage, but for most of us on this board, Hawaiian is a foreign language and we may not recognize the range of variation.
If Mick Jagger sings “I Can't Get No Satisfaction,” everyone recognizes that this is non-standard, but grammatical, English. If Borat sings “I Not Be Get Many Satisfactions Please,” it’s comical. I don’t want to be Borat in Hawaiian.
Yes, the example you give is linked assonance, which is probably the most identifiable poetic device that is noticeable by people who don't speak the language. As Hawaiian had not written form prior to missionary arrival, it was an aid in memorization of long text. Whether that was the intent or just a by-product of the poetry is hard to say. Words of similar or opposite meaning could also occur in those locations, say, one line ending with "uka" (upland) and the next beginning with "kai" (seaside). Many of the devices are not as obvious as this.
You're right, there are fewer syllables in Hawaiian than English, and an occasionally end of line rhyme will occur, but it is most likely by chance and not intentional.
Re: standard but grammatical - Hawaiian poetry does not always follow the same grammatical "rules" or patterns as spoken Hawaiian. Some things heard in spoken Hawaiian are or can be left out in the poetry, reordered, but that doesn't mean there are no "rules" to how they are put together. Again, the "rules" are more the "norms" that can be heard in the large corpus of mele that have been composed over the past centuries. A composer could take liberty if they chose, but would risk their thoughts being misinterpreted, even by someone who speaks the language well. I wouldn't want to do that, myself. |
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marzullo
`Olu`olu
USA
923 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2007 : 7:18:14 PM
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hi all,
what a great thread!
on a related topic, so many people i've sung with emphasize very strongly the need to phrase the words in a hawaiian song exactly as you hear it. this has always troubled me - think about how in English a singer can play with the timing of words. one of the things i've enjoyed about keoki kahumoku's singing is that he plays with the rhythym. so, how bad is this? does the timing - the phrasing of hawaiian - notably different than English? assuming that one keeps the poke together, say.
aloha,
keith
PS is there enough interest and expertise to have a topic on hawaiian language wrt mele and himeni? having keola is a wonderful resource, of course...
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Edited by - marzullo on 03/30/2007 7:19:15 PM |
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wcerto
Ahonui
USA
5052 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2007 : 03:20:42 AM
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| Hey Menpachi -- me na pua not manapua in da mele. Just like a man -- always thinking of something else when the word "puhi" is mentioned, and always thinking about kaukau. Although I sure like to eat manapua. Here we call them char siu bau, Never tried making them myself except for buying frozen and then steaming them at home. But you know what, I think this will be my weekend project. Thanks for the link for recipes and a little info on ipu heke. |
Me ke aloha
Malama pono,
Wanda |
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marzullo
`Olu`olu
USA
923 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2007 : 11:22:00 AM
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aloha e kakou,
i let this discussion rattle around my head while running this morning. the number of speakers of hawaiian is increasing rapidly due to the immersion programs as well as other language classes. one statistic i read sad that the number of speakers has tripled in the last ten years (keola could probably give the correct stastitics). if this is the case, then one has to imagine that hawaiian is going to change. most speakers will have learned it outside of their home and as a second language. so, pronunciation issues like how we say "onaona" as well as how we construct sentences and what phrases we use in daily speech are probably changing.
i don't think that this is necessarily bad - reviving hawaiian as a viable language is the important goal. and, the work that kaliko and others are putting into creating a hawaiian "literature" by putting the old newspapers online will help ground the language.
i miss the tools i had when learning other languages - i dream of having hawaiian comic books, hawaiian subtitles on english-language movies, hearing hawaiian radio commercials and public announcements, and being able to learn the vocabulary for some particular task like repairing a light and heading into the store armed with the words and a mission.
okay, maybe i ran too far.
aia au i keia manawa ma lahaina. nani 'o 'ane'i i keia la! onaona ka makani, 'oma'oma'o na pu'u me ka ua, a aia na kohola ma ke kai. (aue, a'ole ka kahako i 'ane'i...)
na kili
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keoladonaghy
Lokahi
257 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2007 : 3:22:10 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by marzullo
aloha e kakou,
i let this discussion rattle around my head while running this morning. the number of speakers of hawaiian is increasing rapidly due to the immersion programs as well as other language classes. one statistic i read sad that the number of speakers has tripled in the last ten years (keola could probably give the correct stastitics). if this is the case, then one has to imagine that hawaiian is going to change. most speakers will have learned it outside of their home and as a second language. so, pronunciation issues like how we say "onaona" as well as how we construct sentences and what phrases we use in daily speech are probably changing.
i don't think that this is necessarily bad - reviving hawaiian as a viable language is the important goal. and, the work that kaliko and others are putting into creating a hawaiian "literature" by putting the old newspapers online will help ground the language.
i miss the tools i had when learning other languages - i dream of having hawaiian comic books, hawaiian subtitles on english-language movies, hearing hawaiian radio commercials and public announcements, and being able to learn the vocabulary for some particular task like repairing a light and heading into the store armed with the words and a mission.
Aloha e Kili. I don't have any statistics, we're gaining new second language speakers all the time, losing elderly native speakers, and bringing up more children though the immersion schools. It's hard to put a number out there. I'd say yes we are producing more speakers than we lose, but few will reach the same level of proficiency as those that we are losing.
Yes, the language is changing, as all languages do. We can't stop it, what we do try to do is look at the language as it was and continues to be spoken by those who are native speakers and learned from native speakers, and put it into a contemporary context so that it can continue to live and thrive. We need to create new words to address contemporary society.
There are a lot of issues, like pronunciation. I didn't do my research on spoken vs. sung pronunciation to criticize anyone, and intentionally avoided analyzing the singing of some contemporary singers to contrast it with the singing of Almeida and other native speakers. I simply wanted to show that this was how he did it, and find a reason for it that people with some linguistic background would understand - the pattern for lack of a better word. Singers can use or ignore the information as they see fit, or disagree with it.
Aside from pronunciation, a big issue is the thought behind the language, that is, are we simply using Hawaiian words and grammatical structures to represent non-Hawaiian thought, or are we expressing thoughts that represent a Hawaiian perspective of the world and of life? That's the bigger challenge. |
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wcerto
Ahonui
USA
5052 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2007 : 3:37:28 PM
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Keola - I agree with you wholeheartedly about expressing thoughts that represent Hawaiian perspective. I believe that is what attracted me to the language and the mele...how beautifully descriptive the words were, the graciousness of the words, the care with which the words were selected and used so as to not be rude or crude. English is an ugly language. The pronunciation rules don't make any sense...silent consonants, silent vowels. Why is the number 1 spelled one insted of wun? Why does ghost have an H? Its not used at all. I think it sounds so harsh because it is a germanic language. Hawaiian language reminds me of the gentleness of a breeze, the sound of the palms stirring in the wind, the sound of the waves as they was on the shore. You are right that the language has to evolve..if they don't, it will go the way of Latin.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts with us. I wrote to your friend, Kenneth Makuakane and asked him to join us here on Taro Patch and share his mana`o. I am certain he can bring us enlightenments. |
Me ke aloha
Malama pono,
Wanda |
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marzullo
`Olu`olu
USA
923 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2007 : 5:56:59 PM
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aloha e kakou, aloha e ke kumu,
quote:
keoladonaghy wrote: I'd say yes we are producing more speakers than we lose, but few will reach the same level of proficiency as those that we are losing.
i think you're right, but eventually, i hope you're wrong  quote:
Aside from pronunciation, a big issue is the thought behind the language, that is, are we simply using Hawaiian words and grammatical structures to represent non-Hawaiian thought, or are we expressing thoughts that represent a Hawaiian perspective of the world and of life? That's the bigger challenge.
this is a very deep and important question. i met the kupuna of the crafts hui "ka lima hana" last week. she's a high-energy self-described tomboy in her sixties. she's from hilo. she had tried to take 'olelo hawai'i but gave up because she didn't want to learn words like "ka makaaniani" - this was her example of a post-contact thought. i understood her point, but the hawaiian perspective has been altered by everything that has happened (including glasses  )
i guess i've become caught up in my kumu's enthusiasm ('alika, on o'ahu): revive the language. this can only help vitalize the hawaiian point of view.
aloha,
na kili
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keoladonaghy
Lokahi
257 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2007 : 6:20:08 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by marzullo
aloha e kakou, aloha e ke kumu,
quote:
keoladonaghy wrote: I'd say yes we are producing more speakers than we lose, but few will reach the same level of proficiency as those that we are losing.
i think you're right, but eventually, i hope you're wrong quote:
Aside from pronunciation, a big issue is the thought behind the language, that is, are we simply using Hawaiian words and grammatical structures to represent non-Hawaiian thought, or are we expressing thoughts that represent a Hawaiian perspective of the world and of life? That's the bigger challenge.
this is a very deep and important question. i met the kupuna of the crafts hui "ka lima hana" last week. she's a high-energy self-described tomboy in her sixties. she's from hilo. she had tried to take 'olelo hawai'i but gave up because she didn't want to learn words like "ka makaaniani" - this was her example of a post-contact thought. i understood her point, but the hawaiian perspective has been altered by everything that has happened (including glasses )
i guess i've become caught up in my kumu's enthusiasm ('alika, on o'ahu): revive the language. this can only help vitalize the hawaiian point of view.
aloha,
na kili
I don't equate using new words with non-Hawaiian thought. The word makaaniani has certainly been around longer than anyone living today. Clarence Kinney reflected a Hawaiian perspective in Holoholo Ka'a. I tried to do so with Holo Paikikala (Bicycle Ride) from Kenneth Makuakane's release. I've met kupuna who feel the same way, and that's their choice. Imagine what our life in an English world would be like if we refused to use words coined after 1800. I can't imagine trying to hold a conversation in Hawaiian without using words that were post-contact, though in some contexts I'm sure you could. |
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Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2007 : 04:57:24 AM
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quote:
English is an ugly language.
But have you ever listened to French rock and roll?
There are no ugly languages, only ugly thoughts. Which, sadly, transcend language.
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alika207
Ha`aha`a
USA
1260 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2007 : 09:22:42 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by mike2jb
Sorry this is deviating from Wanda's topic, but Keola, I’m so glad you explained about the difference in spoken and sung pronunciation of some words and the differences in sung words over time. I have been flummoxed recently by a line from the song “Radio Hula” that I can’t get to fit the meter of the music:
“`Ike `ia `o Hawai`i nö e ka `oi.”
One modern singer (Uluwehi Guerrero) uses four beats (accent on first and third) to sing “`o –Ha-wai-`i.” Boyce Rodrigues in the sixties drops the `o and sings “Ha-wa-i-`i.”
Anyone know if the `o before this name is optional? (optional in speech? Only in song? Only if you’re out of syllables?)
Woo-hooooo! I'm so glad you asked! The 'o before a name of a person, place, or anything you would call a proper noun in English is crucial when you speak 'olelo Hawai'i. It is called a name announcer; it tells you that a name is coming. For example: 'O Alika ko'u inoa. (My name is Alika.) |
He kehau ho'oma'ema'e ke aloha.
'Alika / Polinahe |
Edited by - alika207 on 04/29/2007 09:26:36 AM |
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keoladonaghy
Lokahi
257 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2007 : 5:21:42 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by hawaiianmusicfan138
quote:
Originally posted by mike2jb
Sorry this is deviating from Wanda's topic, but Keola, I�m so glad you explained about the difference in spoken and sung pronunciation of some words and the differences in sung words over time. I have been flummoxed recently by a line from the song �Radio Hula� that I can�t get to fit the meter of the music:
�`Ike `ia `o Hawai`i n� e ka `oi.�
One modern singer (Uluwehi Guerrero) uses four beats (accent on first and third) to sing �`o �Ha-wai-`i.� Boyce Rodrigues in the sixties drops the `o and sings �Ha-wa-i-`i.�
Anyone know if the `o before this name is optional? (optional in speech? Only in song? Only if you�re out of syllables?)
Woo-hooooo! I'm so glad you asked! The 'o before a name of a person, place, or anything you would call a proper noun in English is crucial when you speak 'olelo Hawai'i. It is called a name announcer; it tells you that a name is coming. For example: 'O Alika ko'u inoa. (My name is Alika.)
Re: The pronunciation of Hawai'i, most of the old-time singers I've listened to pronounced it like this (underlined mora fall on strong beats):
Ha-wa-i-i
Spoken pronunction is usually:
Ha-wai-i
I observed the above sung pronuciation in John Almeida's recordings, also in Lena Machado and other old-timers. I mentioned this to Aunty Nona Beamer once, and her eyes lit up. That is how her grandmother sang Helen Desha Beamer had sung it in her composition "Keawaiki." If you listen to Keola and Kapono's recording of it they do it the same way. Not to say people who sing it as spoken are wrong, and I have heard some old recordings with the spoken pronunciation as well.
Because of the metrics, it would be tricky to pronounce 'o Hawai'i and use the sung pronunciation, because the 'o would tend to fall on the strong beat, as would the "Ha-", meaning you would have to lengthen the 'o or the Ha- to get it to flow correctly, and it would probably sound strange. This may be why Boyce used the spoken pronunciation - it helped the flow sound more natural.
If I was going to use 'o, I would tend to do this if the melody allowed:
a'o Ha-wa-i-'i
This way the "a" in a'o falls on the strong beat, and then the "Ha-" of Hawai'i can also and you naturally get the sung pronuncation of Almeida, Machado, etc.
To follow up on 'Alika's comment re: 'o, he is correct. It is needed so that you know a proper name is coming up, either a person or place. It's especially helpful for learners when the names could easily be a common noun:
Aia 'o Kalehua ma kahakai - A person named Kalehua is at the beach
Aia ka lehua ma kahakai - The lehua (tree perhaps) is at the beach
With 'o, the pronunciation would be exactly the same, and you would be challenged to know whether you were referring to a person named Kalehua or a lehua tree or flower.
However, while preferred in mele, it can be dropped. The very first line of "Na Moku 'Eha" is
Hanohano Hawai'i la....
In spoken Hawaiian it would be Hanohano 'o Hawai'i la, however, it would make it difficult to phrase it with the 'o with the melody as we know it. I wrote one mele and left out the 'o in this kind of situtation; I took it to Larry Kimura to paka (edit, look for flaws) and he suggested putting it back in.
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Sarah
`Olu`olu
571 Posts |
Posted - 04/30/2007 : 06:33:04 AM
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posted by Keola Donaghy:
quote:
However, while preferred in mele, it can be dropped. The very first line of "Na Moku 'Eha" is
Hanohano Hawai'i la....
In spoken Hawaiian it would be Hanohano 'o Hawai'i la, however, it would make it difficult to phrase it with the 'o with the melody as we know it. I wrote one mele and left out the 'o in this kind of situtation; I took it to Larry Kimura to paka (edit, look for flaws) and he suggested putting it back in.
Mahalo, Keola.
Information like this on real-life usage is very helpful. I've run across a number of instances in mele, and in some oli too, where the 'o is apparently dropped and always wondered why, given the context and/or circumstances.
There's an oli by Amy Stillman that starts, "Eia Kaleponi he 'aina one 'ula" and I always was puzzled by it, thinking it should be "Eia 'o Kaleponi ..." but perhaps (?) this is now explained.
aloha,
Sarah |
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noeau
Ha`aha`a
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 05/10/2007 : 12:43:05 PM
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| It is amazing that everyone has expressed such an avid interest in 'olelo hawai'i . I would add that to put things in context many singers in the past were not native speakers and the language was basically forbidden to be spoken on the streets and schoolyards of Hawai'i for about seventy years. Many songs began to be sung with the wrong words and phrasing as well as pronunciation. If you listen to songs by Gabby or Aunty Genoa you will see that even they fell victim to the oppression of the Hawaiian language and often mispronounced words. Having said that, at least the music survived to keep some semblance of the language alive until the resurgence of interest in Hawaiian language occurred. I once had a second year teacher equate Hawaiian with Latin. Of course she also encouraged us to not let the language die. As the languge is used by manaleo and new students today the language will thrive and grow and common usage may dictate pronunciation on songs. However we must still observe the usage of y and w glides as well as proper placement of 'okina and mekona to differentiate the myriad words that exist in the language. Let us not get too caught up in what we think is right and proper as far as language is concerned and speak from the heart of a Hawaiian as much as possible. |
No'eau, eia au he mea pa'ani wale nō. |
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