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RWD
`Olu`olu
USA
850 Posts |
 Posted - 04/23/2007 : 04:54:51 AM
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Just looking for comments on tempo.
One of the issues I have playing guitar is with tempo. I have been working on it by practicing with a metronome and I have been improving. It does help correct my tempo to practice with one, especially rushing, but the metronome does not let me be expressive and I feel like I am being restricted. So, when I record I have a decision to make. Sometimes I have used the built in metronome but quite often I bypass it so that I can vary my timing (rhubato?).
As an example, I play Steve Sano's "Ke Aloha O Ka Haku" but would not enjoy playing it if I had to following a click track. Too much emotion would be lost.
One that I did use a click track on that seemed to work out was "Moe Uhane".
Do others feel this way or do some of you use click all the time?
Bob
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Bob |
Edited by - RWD on 04/23/2007 05:01:13 AM |
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marzullo
`Olu`olu
USA
923 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2007 : 06:36:34 AM
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hi haole boy,
i've found a metronome useful for two purposes:
1) there are some songs that i seem to start at too slow a tempo. "wahine 'ilikea" is one. so, i write down the BPM i want to train at (for W'I, 112) and then play at that speed.
2) on songs that i've not nailed, i often push the beat. this is true for just me and for this trio in which i play. the metronome helps me/us stop rushing the song. although, we often stare in disbelief, and argue that some passing singularity must've caused the metronome to suddenly alter it's phase.
... but, it's true, playing expressively often means momentarily speeding up or slowing down while keeping the same overall tempo. bill benzel (bbenzel of this board, but he's not a regular poster) is very good at this kind of expressiveness.
btw, i think "rhubato" is a new health drink made with rhubarb and tomato juice... "rubato" is the musical term. it comes from the italian verb "rubare", meaning "to steal". the idea is you're stealing time from a later measure.
aloha,
keith
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RWD
`Olu`olu
USA
850 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2007 : 08:15:10 AM
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quote:
btw, i think "rhubato" is a new health drink made with rhubarb and tomato juice...
Wow! I coulda had a Rhubato! |
Bob |
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GUke
Lokahi
188 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2007 : 10:32:19 AM
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When performing tempo sometimes slows down at the end of a song. A lot of songs have repeats. On "Honolulu, I am coming back again" I'll sing "... see the lights" and "... old Diamond Head" at tempo, and the second time around I'll hold notes a bit longer for emphasis.
A former co-worker of mine playing with his computer program a classical song and held tempo throughout. He said it sounded too robotic.
I agree that artistic expression might involve changing tempo. But there's an overall tempo that's usually kept for most of a song.
Finally, when you play alone it's easy to go in and out of tempo and express, but when you play with others you all need to be "tight" i.e. you're in and out of tempo together.
Genaro |
Genaro
Should I? Itʻs only $, and where Iʻm going itʻll burn or melt. |
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hikabe
Lokahi
USA
358 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2007 : 10:43:03 AM
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Being expressive does not always mean speeding up or slowing down. A metronome is mainly for practicing purposes. The metronome should never be used when playing music. Oh oh, I said the word never. Some people don't like that word, whatever.
Performing solo gives you freedom to ad lib tempo, which means slowing down or speeding up for a desired effect. But in a group, your internal metronome has to be in sync with the other performers internal metronome, or the clicking in the brains of all band members. Bands with drummers don't have this problem unless the drummer has a problem with tempo.
A metronome and a general understanding of the different speed settings can be very helpful in a practice situation. Some recordings that require split second timing interaction of instruments can and is used as an extra track when recording parts individually and is removed in the final cut.
Performers like John Lee Hooker, Gabby, Sinatra, Dylan, my dad and many others sometimes have a glitch in their timing that their bands would instantly cover up. But they never got fired from the band because it is that flaw that made their craft as exquisite as a diamond. What some people consider a mistake, I see as the human touch and the truth. This is more valuable to me then a a perfectly executed piece of music. The metronome is too perfect. |
Stay Tuned... |
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hikabe
Lokahi
USA
358 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2007 : 10:47:14 AM
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| Good luck... |
Stay Tuned... |
Edited by - hikabe on 04/23/2007 11:33:47 AM |
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RWD
`Olu`olu
USA
850 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2007 : 11:08:58 AM
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I suppose my question comes more from trying to record than from anywhere else.
I use a click track when all I need to do is ritard the ending. With anything else, the click will screw me up after I break timing.
I have heard that a musician records several tracks and an engineer slices and dices the tracks to make one good one. Without a click track, it seems unlikely that one could duplicate a track for cut and paste.
I often wonder (when I am recording at home) how a person can ignor a click track in order to add ritard and rubato.
The only things I can think of is to monitor the first track, make a special timing track, stay really close to the beat, or finally, forget the timing beat and wing it.
Does anyone know how the pro's manage to record with rubato and ritard?
Bob
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Edited by - RWD on 04/23/2007 11:13:48 AM |
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hikabe
Lokahi
USA
358 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2007 : 11:55:18 AM
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I say wing it.
The pros have thousands of dollars of equipment to make you look good or to aid in the studio. They can do anything. You need to hone your material and play it naturally in the recording studio. If you mess up, take another try from the beginning until you get it right. I am opposed to the cut and paste technique. If the entire track cannot be done in 1 take, then you must decide if you are going to cut and paste so as not to incur the cost of studio time. Some musicians rely on manipulating their recordings, it is the nature of the beast.
Be prepared before you record. If you record yourself, you have all the time to get it right without trickery. If you are overdubbing all the parts, that is different. But still should be done in 1 take per track.
When I record my first commercial CD, I will not use any tricks and will insist on a natural recording with real instruments, not drum machines or keyboards that sound like the sax or flute, etc. But that is my own preference and people have all kinds of reasons and approachs to recording things. |
Stay Tuned... |
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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2007 : 6:54:26 PM
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I tend to be a purist, like Hiram. I've done 2 CD's -- no cut and paste, but a hell of a lot of retakes. Be aware that that can get very expensive, so here's my advise.
Before you record -- over over over learn each song. (including your pa'ani, etc.) Then play the songs in situations in which you get nervous playing until you can play them in those situations without much nervousness -- or rather, until you can play them right in spite of the nervousness.
One of my teachers really pushed me to use the metronone when practicing and to get my timing lock solid tight. Lots of questions like "are those three eight notes, three sixteenth notes, a triplet, etc etc. I hated it. Now when I play at the restaurant, I tend to be the most expressive with those songs for which I have the timing down solid. (I also know the words well enough to sing, including their meaning and grammar, though I don't sing.) ---- I think it is about really knowing the music "from the inside" - once I have that, there's a whole lot of freedom to express what's there.
As Hiram said, you play with others, your timing has to be in synch. Many, many years ago I played in two polka bands, and we all synched to the drummer, who got the beat from the leaders -- thank god both of the drummers were good. |
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