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keoladonaghy
Lokahi
257 Posts |
 Posted - 05/01/2007 : 8:07:43 PM
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| Mahalo for your extensive post, Peter. I've spent some time recently listening to interviews with Alice conduced by Larry Kimura in Hawaiian in the early 1970s. Alice stated that she knew eight different tunings in her youth, however, because she stopped playing for an extended period of time after her marriage and the subsequent death of her husband she had forgotten all but two of them. Sadly she provided no more information on the tunings, and we will likely never know what they were. |
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slackkey
Lokahi
USA
280 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2007 : 12:11:37 AM
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 "Kiho'alu Stylings" are best done spontaneously.. , and are one of the reasons why a beautiful tune like "Sanoe" may have different variations.
Just a moment ago, I picked-up my "kika" in drop C tuning, and with the song playing in my head, began plucking it for my very first time doing it in "slack C".
Keeping it simple, it came out sooooo nahenahe...so pleasant to the ears. And yes...being able to know how the song goes, help to stimulate our "slack key senses" in creating an inspired-feel for it.
My advice for ones learning to play a favorite, and learning kiho'alu for the first time, is to play it back in their minds with eyes closed, and then let your fingers do the walking It may not sound right the first time. But just keep it up repetitively! Next thing you know you're "kanikajammin"! "Got Kiho'alu"?
Whatever you're doing: keep doing it!!!!! One song that we play may not always be the same as the first We may end-up with different "kiho'alu stylings"!
But that's what being "spontaneous" is all about"....JUS'PRESS
"slackkey" Bill  |
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Sarah
`Olu`olu
571 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2007 : 05:07:12 AM
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| I learned from Ron Loo, a teacher of mine and a student of Auntie Alice's, that Auntie Alice considered Gabby "hopelessly modern." Indeed, her style and his are wildly different. |
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slackkey
Lokahi
USA
280 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2007 : 05:36:01 AM
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Good Morning Sarah! How wonderful to see you here at 5:21 a.m. (hawaiian-time). It is really great how many of us have had a begining...to keep the "Art OF Kiho'alu" alive and well, in each and everyone of us. Even to have gone beyond, and learned the "Hawaiian Language", olelo as you do. I recall several "Kiho'alu Fests. ago when you were up on stage with Kevin and Ikaika...How he so warmly introduced you to all of Maui. That moment was very touching to me. Well! got to be heading to work this morning. Take care Sarah! "Eh how'zit Reid"!!!!!
Bill |
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hikabe
Lokahi
USA
358 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2007 : 08:38:40 AM
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| Mahalo Professor Medeiros. Your wisdom is like fresh water flushing through the lohi. Or like one half slap for wake people up. tanks eh |
Stay Tuned... |
Edited by - hikabe on 05/02/2007 08:39:52 AM |
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Sarah
`Olu`olu
571 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2007 : 08:39:18 AM
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Aloha Bill!
Great to see you posting! Yes, I remember you being there for me at that Ki Ho'alu Fest, giving me your support and encouragement -- thank you!! that was a very special time.
me ke aloha,
Sarah |
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Kapila Kane
Ha`aha`a
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2007 : 12:55:32 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by hapakid
I play with fiddlers quite a bit and they tweak and play around with tunes so much that they're hardly recognizable.
Ok, now I agree...that's why I try to KISS...
but we are trying to tastfully fill the holes, or add texture...
I also have gotten over some of my bluegrass hyperactivity...
Last summer when I sat in with the Hawaiian Band at the slack key festival... I actually prayed while I played...
but wanted to not get mega-timid, so that when Dwight and Moe started to Jam it up, I could find the fire.
Of course, taste can come and go...so must keep da heart, inner-ear, fingers and all connected...and keep an ego-limiter around that doesn't kill the thrill of "going for it". (I saw one on E-bay)
On the rest of the topic...there will always be a lot of versions...
instrumental players like Ozzie almost always have the core ideas in there...but embellished...
it's not a Dead concet...well, I guess I like that too, now and then.
With the great recordings of 20th century masters, and the work of Dancing Cat and others, the risk of complete tune destruction is virtually nil.
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Edited by - Kapila Kane on 05/03/2007 12:57:27 PM |
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RWD
`Olu`olu
USA
850 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2007 : 2:16:23 PM
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Lots to think about with all the great input on this subject.
If I condensed it down to a statement like "groups and vocalists are the most likely to maintain a relationship to the original tune and solo guitar (slack key) players are less likely", would that be too simplistic?
As I have though about what a "respectful" rendition of great composer would mean to me, I can think of one current, and one from my rock & roll past.
The newest example.
If you watched American Idol on Tuesday, this Blake guy did a Bon Jovi tune. He managed to make a very original, modern and expressive version of the song and yet he maintained all the essetial elements of the song: the melody, basic chord changes, and the same lyrics. But, anyone hearing his version and the original version would instantly recognize them as being the same song.
An older example.
The rock band Cream re-did a Robert Johnson tune called "Crossroads". Their version was totaly modern and inovative, yet they maintained the basic structure of the song...the melody, chord changes and lyrics. Even though it was very different and modern, I felt it was also respectful to Robert Johnson. Once again, a listener hearing the original version would recognize the song. I like Cream's version better in fact. To me that is artistry.
I was not just different, it was worthwhile.
I realize this is very subjective and that I am only expressing my personal point of view right now.
But I do have an well formed opinion on this subject now.
Bob |
Bob |
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keoladonaghy
Lokahi
257 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2007 : 5:17:17 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Haole_Boy
Lots to think about with all the great input on this subject.
If I condensed it down to a statement like "groups and vocalists are the most likely to maintain a relationship to the original tune and solo guitar (slack key) players are less likely", would that be too simplistic?
As I have though about what a "respectful" rendition of great composer would mean to me, I can think of one current, and one from my rock & roll past.
The newest example.
If you watched American Idol on Tuesday, this Blake guy did a Bon Jovi tune. He managed to make a very original, modern and expressive version of the song and yet he maintained all the essetial elements of the song: the melody, basic chord changes, and the same lyrics. But, anyone hearing his version and the original version would instantly recognize them as being the same song.
An older example.
The rock band Cream re-did a Robert Johnson tune called "Crossroads". Their version was totaly modern and inovative, yet they maintained the basic structure of the song...the melody, chord changes and lyrics. Even though it was very different and modern, I felt it was also respectful to Robert Johnson. Once again, a listener hearing the original version would recognize the song. I like Cream's version better in fact. To me that is artistry.
I was not just different, it was worthwhile.
I realize this is very subjective and that I am only expressing my personal point of view right now.
But I do have an well formed opinion on this subject now.
Bob
Personally I think your statement might be too simplistic. Some instrumentalists might be truer to the original than some vocalists. I noted significant (IMHO) variation in Almeida's recordings as far as phrasing and ornamentation went. What I am saying, is that I believe it valuable for anyone, instrumentalist or vocalist, to KNOW the original melody as best as possible, and build upon that, rather than build on someone else's interpretation of it.
In your two examples, you pointed to exactly what I'm saying. Clapton copied the originator - Johnson. In the Idol example, Blake copied the originator - Bon Jovi. If I was going to create a new arrangement of "My Favorite Things", I would first go listen to Julie Andrews rather than John Coltrane's, and then find things I could "borrow" from 'Trane to put into my own.
One of my guitar instructors at GIT made a statement, perhaps an over-generalization but not lacking in truth, is that guitarists, more so than other instrumentalists, tend to be too incestuous. We like to listen to and copy from other guitarists. He recommended to us that we listen to sax, trumpet and piano players for ideas. Since the soul of Hawaiian music is in the language (IMHO), paying close attention to vocal renditions would be a rich source for inspiration in creating original arrangements, and perhaps allow for greater freedom of expression than trying to expand on someone else's instrumental rendition. |
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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2007 : 07:31:31 AM
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Right on Keola!
When I'm playing at the restaurant, I almost always get a stronger and more positive reaction to the pieces which I am "singing" in my head as I play. Certainly those pieces which were originally written as vocals. And as to Hawaiian music, it is so logocentric that I just couldn't imagine my playing a piece that I haven't at least listened to with the liner notes and translation. For instance, some of my favorite arrangements began with listening to George Helm.
Aside: Increasingly, too, I'm trying to describe my playing as being influenced by slack key as opposed to playing slack key. That's for two reasons - I studied for a year with George, lots of lessons with others, but I don't really see myself "in the tradition." I think that takes the kind of dedication that Peter wrote about so eloquently. I'm really an advanced dabbler who is trying to play music that he enjoys and hopes others can also. Also, tempermentally, I would rather strike out into new territory, at least for me, than repeat "old" stuff. (I'm not trying to put down traditional music or musicians - just trying to say I like to try new things.
As to the issue of guitarists playing like other guitarists - that happens on other instruments also -- how many times have you heard Keith Jarret-isms in piano players, Coltrane in , etc etc ... Part of that is natural ... we listen to what we enjoy most, and most guitarists enjoy guitar. On the other hand, I think that really original stuff is very hard to come by. That's why they call it genius, no? But, borrowing some riffs from players of other instruments CAN seem like you are doing something new and different on the guitar. |
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hikabe
Lokahi
USA
358 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2007 : 09:18:12 AM
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Do I have a responsibility to the audience or anyone else to present Hawaiian music exactly how the Pahanuis or Apakas would? When I improvise using the pentatonic scale during Kawika, am I contributing to the loss of tradition thinking?
When I play Hawaiian music on uke or slack key guitar, I think to myself of all the songs my dad played on the stereo. That is my motivation when I am trying to sound authentic and want to be accepted by the audience as a Hawaiian musician, drawing on melodies and riffs that are etched in my memory. When I am performing to other crowds not familiar with the genre, I insert elements typical of the genre I think best fits the audience. Mainlanders and others like the typical Hawaiian riffs but hoot and holler when I shred like Clapton, so to speak. I can serve up tradition, but I prefer to get hooted and hollered at. It makes for a happier and responsive audience. Then I can push my own aggenda.
But if I were to record a CD, I would make sure that I have all the parts perfect. A recording is like a ball and chain attached to you forever. A recording is a document of your heart and soul effort to share your aural expression and philosophy. Without recordings, we are destined to lose traditional music along with the opae in the Palolo stream, the mountain apples in Manoa, acccess to the Waimea river, homes for people camped out at Wainae and Mokoleaea, the right to fish at Hanauma and other things disappearing fast.
We don't need to worry about losing the past as there are volumes of material that serve as snapshots of historical events. We need more people drawing from the past.
Consider Kapono's latest efforts. People born during the middle of the 1900's mostly hate it(he is around 55 or so, himself). People born in the nineties and latter, like it because they don't know the past as well. Go figure... |
Stay Tuned... |
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mpi_50
Lokahi
USA
133 Posts |
Posted - 05/07/2007 : 07:00:13 AM
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| Keiki o ka'aina, from Palolo. Strong memories of pre-statehood Hawaii, makes you want to cry. I agree with your statements. Like a painting, express your music, sing like a saxophone. Traditional Hawaiian music, like the Classic European traditions can survive and also be adapted for the auduience. Excellent subject that is a mind expanding experience for me.KUDOS! |
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thumbstruck
Ahonui
USA
2168 Posts |
Posted - 05/07/2007 : 4:19:45 PM
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I'll chew some cabbage twice. My family is Norsk/Swensk, so bear with me. Dad told me that the old tunes were fiddle modal. The introduction of the button accordion forced change to major keys. The flavor of the music still came from hold overs from the modes. Chromatic intruments added more color, but the modes still had influence.
In Hawaiian music, each instrument, guitar, ukulele, steel, bass, keyboards etc had an infulence. Iberian influences from Portugal and Spain added an influence along with the hymns from the missionaries. What is truly amazing is the creative energy that came from the mix in Hawai'i, and the tremendous influence that the mix had on the pop, jazz and country music. Humans are synthesists by nature. Good ideas are utilized in new ways. |
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mpi_50
Lokahi
USA
133 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2007 : 12:50:53 PM
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| In retrospect, would it be unfeasible for a kihoalu player to play a classic song just as if it were the original and given the same respect as an European based classic waltz, opus, concerto or whatever they call their meles. For a beginner, I would be totally jazzed to have that opportunity. Isn't slack a classical art form like the hula? Just thinking out loud, thanks for bearing with me. |
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RWD
`Olu`olu
USA
850 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2007 : 4:05:09 PM
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You know what MPi_50, I think that is what prompted me to start this subject.
I am learning slack key and not improvising yet. Nothing original yet (working on one), no special arrangements yet, etc... just adding my own energy and temperment.
At this stage, I do want to learn versions that are close to the originals, but it ain't so easy figuring that out sometimes.
A person wishing to actually play a nearly original version has got to pay attention and even do some research. Via mele.com for instance.
This is not like classical music where a song is expected be be very close, nor would I want it to be.
Just got to pay attention I guess.
Bob
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