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Absolute
Lokahi
275 Posts |
 Posted - 06/14/2007 : 1:34:35 PM
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I know that basic slack key structure is vamp-pattern-vamp-pattern-vamp thanks to information provided on this forum.
Is it true that I am freed from the need for the repeating bass note of the pattern in each of the vamps?
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Thank you. |
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Sarah
`Olu`olu
571 Posts |
Posted - 06/15/2007 : 03:52:30 AM
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In my experience, repeating bass note is generally already included in the vamp, and a vamp would sound incomplete without it.
The repeating bass note pattern may not be identical to the overall pattern of repeating bass notes in the rest of the song, because the song -- taking taropatch tuning for an example, which usually has an alternating bass pattern -- may have G and D7 measures in different sequence, or even C or A measures.
However, most vamps (in taropatch, to keep the explanation simple) are going from a D7 to a G, so you pick 6-4-6-4 in the D7 part of the vamp and then 5-4-5-4 in the G part of the vamp. In the vamps I have learned, those notes are already included as part of what to play in the vamp -- integral to it.
Given that there are other G and D7 measures in the rest of the song, i.e., what you call the "pattern", you will find yourself playing 5-4-6-4 and 6-4-6-4 in those places, too.
If you have some recordings of the masters who play in the traditional style (such as Ray Kane), you can give a listen to how the bass line goes, and hear it will be quite steadily rendered throughout the song -- not eliminated during a vamp.
There are other bass line patterns used, too, which people may decide to discuss, such as a pedal note or a syncopated 3-note bass pattern, and so on. They are, in my experience, also included in any vamp used in the piece.
Hope that helps.
aloha,
Sarah |
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Mika ele
Ha`aha`a
USA
1493 Posts |
Posted - 06/15/2007 : 07:47:15 AM
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It is my understanding that in the slack key guitar tradition, the guitar is fulfilling the role of bass, rhythm, and lead instruments in one "music box". It is also the percussion section. The bass line sets the rhythm (for example, the kaholo beat from an ipu) and it also sounds the root note of the chords played on the upper strings. Therefore, the thumb is a very important fellow indeed. Without him, the other notes fail to follow along. Make him too strong and the other notes can't be heard. Be carefull where you drop bass notes -- the thumb may go on strike and you'd have to sing a capella. |
E nana, e ho'olohe. E pa'a ka waha, e hana ka lima. |
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Absolute
Lokahi
275 Posts |
Posted - 06/15/2007 : 07:47:37 AM
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| Thanks. I tend to avoid repeating bass notes when I write a "vamp". Guess I'm creating some sort of hybrid, howlie music. |
Thank you. |
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hikabe
Lokahi
USA
358 Posts |
Posted - 06/15/2007 : 09:19:07 AM
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You are asking a question about uke technique. It seems people are explaining guitar experiences in answer to your question.
You should play the bass line throughout the whole piece.
You can intelectualize all you want but there are not enough strings on the uke to play slack key style properly. Once you can admit that, then you can come to grips with the limitations of the uke. Actually, the limitation is in the player. I play both standard and slack key guitar as well as the uke. I play things that are more complex than Uncle Dave but don't call it slack key. I can assimilate the bass lines on the uke with extreme difficulty and call it advanced uke technique, not slack key. I am not enthralled or overwhelmed by music and am a bit jaded by years of being an artist/musician.
I have noticed people refer to the music as slack key sounding. That is because people who don't live in Hawaii recognize the melodies to be Hawaiian in nature. Anything Hawaiian-like, musically, is thought of as slack key. It all sounds alike for people new to the genre. Besides, a vast majority of mainlanders are more exposed to slack key guitar and less familiar with Hawaiian folk music. Guitar players know that if you tune to taropatch, like Bonnie Rait, you get a dulcimer-like instrument that is infinitely easier to play then the standard guitar. Because I play both, I understand both worlds. Because I study the standard tuned guitar intensely, I can easily play slack key. But playing slack does not improve my standard guitar technique. Lots of standard guitar students give up and resort to slack key because it is easier to have fun faster.
Absolute... I am sorry to be blunt sometimes but I have to excersize restraint whenever I read a post of yours that I do not agree with, especially when you dole out authoritative advice contrary to my way of thinking about the uke and music in general. I have been playing the guitar for more then forty years, the uke for 14 years and I have been teaching for 6 years. For the most part, you seem very sensitive and thorough in your enthusiasm to learn. But once in a while you make a statment that drives me nuts. I should just mind my own business, as a lot of people enjoy the exchange. I chime in to show that there are others who are focused on other things in the uke world. I am trying to help but you are so dug into your ways that you can't be moved. I think you dispel my advice as crackpot info. If you saw a youtube of me on the uke, you may not think I am such a crackpot. But I only perform live. |
Stay Tuned... |
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Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 06/15/2007 : 11:05:23 AM
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quote:
Guitar players know that if you tune to taropatch, like Bonnie Rait, you get a dulcimer-like instrument that is infinitely easier to play then the standard guitar.
Hey Hiram... as a dulcimer player I gotta think about that one.
Actually, I know what you are getting at: lots of folkies have found that tuning to open G lets you play fairly complex-sounding chordal lines with a minimum of fuss. Think "Blackbird." Even tho' Paul wrote it in standard tuning...
And, yes, it can sound a lot like Richard Farina-style dulcimer playing.. you know, little two-note major (or mixolydian) descending runs against a steady drone.
The funny thing is that it is infinitely easier to play complex music on a guitar (or uke) -- no matter how it is tuned -- than on a mountain dulcimer. Too many people dismiss the dulcimer as a "beginner's instrument." Probably because so few people take the time to actually learn how to play it.
Sorry, just had to get that off my chest.
Besides, Hiram -- you're gonna die when I finally get the new edition of my "slack key" dulcimer book & CD done.
Tee hee.
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hikabe
Lokahi
USA
358 Posts |
Posted - 06/15/2007 : 11:16:36 AM
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| I am now writing a book for slack key kazoo!! hee haw |
Stay Tuned... |
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bbenzel
Lokahi
USA
130 Posts |
Posted - 06/15/2007 : 11:35:51 AM
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I got dibs on slack key jug and slack key washtub bass... I'm gonna write 'em "for dummies" too -- sell a million copies, get rich, buy 15 houses on Kauai'i and tear 'em all down, plant koa trees, wait 100 years...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EAe1s3vi_A
Bill |
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Absolute
Lokahi
275 Posts |
Posted - 06/15/2007 : 5:11:03 PM
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Okay..okay...whoa. Uncle Dave, whose work I sincerely admire and for whom I have great respect, wrote that one can not play slack key music like the guitarists play with a ukulele. He stated, quite specifically, that one can only play "sounds like" on the ukulele. I think his approach is neat. I can comprehend some of what he does by watching him. His videos are one of the few reasons I even pick up a ukulele these days, because they imparted some grasp of how to play the thing beyond simply putting one's fingers on the strings in the chord diagram on the tab and strumming. The musical structure he posted lets me write music now and then. I write simple stuff, but at least I can play it. (Granted, no Oli basis, not even a bass line in the vamps, and usually standard tuning, but I enjoy it.) I don't think too many people expect to get rich writing music books, but I would value any book that reflects "Uncle Dave's" years of experience and cultural insight. Such an effort, as an attempt to preserve one's culture and expand its appeal to others who do not have the benefit of long term exposure to such wonderful music, merits admiration.
Like most people in the world, I'm not from Hawaii. I've never been much west of Texas. I don't have that special insight into the local music and culture. In fact, as a person from the midwest separated by generations from the "old country", there's little or nothing in the way of a cultural anchor to tie my perspectives to any nation's music. As a result, regardless of the culture that I'm attempting to evoke, "sounds like" is the best I can hope for based upon superficial, external study.
I'm too old to start learning the guitar. Probably too old to even think very seriously of taking up music at any level. Six strings is more than I can handle. I was doubtful about four strings. As a result, I'm willing to live with "sounds like" and try to make it sound as good as I can, even it that doesn't wind up sounding Hawaiian, because, for the most part, midwesterners are largely culturally adrift, and tend to gravitate toward anything that is willing to generously bestow some cultural identity upon them (e.g. Garrison Keillor and his convenient references to European nations with some local descendents when in front of a relevant crowd and all those hokey international festivals that midwestern towns sponsor when we're mostly "mutts" in terms of our orgins). My only true, native, cultural origins, in terms of music, would probably have to include a hillbilly guitar and a banjo given my mother's tobacco share cropper's daughter's origins. Instead, I'm working on the ukulele and trying to apply those elements of slack key music which have meaning to me (because there's something in it that touches me deeply - perhaps the potential for a simple form of beauty) as an individual, rather than as someone trying to adopt every element of a type of music that is part of someone else's culture, because I wasn't raised with any specific culture of my own. Don't misunderstand, I'm pleased that there are people who are keeping the pure form of slack key alive and well. I hope to embrace what I can of it with my four strings. (Would you feel better, Hikabe, if I call my efforts "Midwestern Hack Key"?) I'm just glad I didn't try to become a musician earlier in life if long term exposure to musical performance makes people so jaded they behave like this. |
Thank you. |
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Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2007 : 12:48:16 PM
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(Would you feel better, Hikabe, if I call my efforts "Midwestern Hack Key"?) I'm just glad I didn't try to become a musician earlier in life if long term exposure to musical performance makes people so jaded they behave like this.
Absolute -- I happen to like "Midwestern hack key" a lot. Wish I'd tho't of it.
No need to quit your learning, nor to give up on playing and, yes, even writing tunes. But yeah, don't call it "slack key" if it isn't slack key.
I have written you a personal answer to this question, but I think it deserves to be aired in the open.
It is true that "slack key" has a certain cultural meaning beyond just the musical notes. I may not agree 100% with Hiram about whether or not you can play "slack key `ukulele" -- I have certainly heard a number of very fine Hawaiian musicans refer to their playing in exactly those words. But just because someone can play in an altered tuning does not make the music "slack key." Nor does throwing in a ii-V-I vamp or two make it Hawaiian. (Or jazz, for that matter.)
Nor is it proper to attempt to pass off one's composition as something it is not -- and I'm afraid that's true in many cultures. As I told you, it really is important with Hawaiian music to respect the source. That means something fairly deep -- beyond simply "liking" the music and attempting to replicate it. At the very least it means honoring the tradition enough to know what it is.
I wouldn't consider Hiram or me jaded for attempting to point this out to you -- and to other readers of this forum. To the contrary, everyone here has invested a fair amount of bandwidth into trying to help you learn-- suggesting books and cds, suggesting lessons, trying to help you learn basic musical concepts, helping with fingering... and so on and on.
I am not a member of the music police -- I happen to like mixing it up musically as much as the next guy. But if I hear someone attempting to pass off an original tune as Irish - or bossa nova or jazz or blues or slack key - it damn well better sound like it. That's just basic musical common sense.
Otherwise you end up like a country drummer I knew who said "Is that another one of them 4/4 waltzes?"
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Absolute
Lokahi
275 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2007 : 3:56:04 PM
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Mark,
It is always a privilege to receive feedback from musicians of your caliber. We agree on the issue of RESPECT, not just for "the source", but for those who strive to pass on knowledge from that source. I didn't like what was being said earlier with regard to one such party. Here is a man who, with an injured hand, is GENEROUSLY providing instructional videos on YouTube and Aloha tabs to anyone who requests them. He's a Hawaiian instructor native to HAWAII but his efforts are recharacterized in a jaded (a word that means one is motivated by selfish goals) manner. A closer examination of the facts reveals that he's been giving away his work ("out of love for the medium") and happens to be writing a book that I think will be a great source of instruction for those of us interested in adding a hint of slack key style playing to our efforts on the ukulele (instead of merely a steady diet of the more common word based tabs), even if we'll never master the musical genre. His internet performances at this point are clearly oriented toward beginners, which is a fact that is clear even to me, so complexity isn't a factor.
You are right. I've gotten A LOT of good input and advice here. Perhaps I've been overeager to try to help out in return based on what I've learned during my trial and error efforts building and attempting to iron the bugs out of a very simple ukulele that I designed and built (and years of study in the field of science). Please take my efforts to help out here as an expression of my gratitude and not something that is intended as an affront to anyone. |
Thank you. |
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hikabe
Lokahi
USA
358 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2007 : 12:34:08 AM
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Mark,
You are funny. Sorry about the jibe on dulcimers. You know what I meant. Slack dulcimer???... You not funny, you a crazy tarohead.
Absolutely Serious,
I respect bradah Dave for his efforts to guide people in their quest to learn the artform we call music. Anyone who inspires others to pick up any kind of musical instrument should be commended. I am also a Hawaiian instructor native to Palolo/Oahu but have a different method of teaching. I start my beginners with extremely hard music and carefully walk through the music until they can play it.
I think jaded means bored and uninterested from over exposure. That's what I meant. For example. I used to be in awe of the sound of a harmonica player wailing some blues song, until I mastered the harmonica. Now, I can't even hear that same sound or the feeling of being in awe. Innocence lost... |
Stay Tuned... |
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