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Absolute
Lokahi
275 Posts |
 Posted - 09/19/2007 : 07:59:18 AM
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| Please go to chord post for my next question. Thanks. |
Thank you. |
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Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2007 : 08:12:08 AM
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Well, golly, here's the old "what's a chord?" question all over again!
Would anyone be interested in a topic devoted to practical music theory posted somewhere accessable to the rest of the 'patch?? I say "practical" to mean "as relates to how you use it when playing the music we play."
(Sorry, but I can live the rest of my life without ever caring which chord is the submediant, or supertonic, or, in truth, caring about whether or not it's OK to call the F7 chord in a C blues progession a "dominant seventh" or not. In the real world we count chords based on their relationship to the key center, and call 'em what we do so the bass player won't play the wrong dang note...End of rant.)
As to the question at hand--
These chords are different:
Cadd2
Csus2
C9
Cmaj9
Why? Here's a very short answer:
"Add 2 chords" are generally major or minor triads with the addition of the 2nd degree of the scale.
So, C add2 would be C-E-G-D
Note that the D would technically be in the same octave as the C, but in practice it can be higher or lower. As I said, "practical" theory ain't the same as what they teach in first year music theory.
(Just to confuse you, many people, including myself more often than not, call "add2" chords "add9" -- why? Cuz, as you know, the 2nd scale degree is also the 9th scale degree.)
"Sus 2" (as in "suspended 2nd") chords are triads that substitute the 2nd scale tone for the third. (And my theory teacher is rolling in his grave cuz I used the word "triad" to describe a "sus 2." So it goes...)
So Csus2 would be C-D-G.
"9th" chords presuppose the flatted ("dominant") 7th added to a major triad:
So C9 is C-E-G-Bb-D.
Note that the chord is made by stacking thirds: C-E is a major third. E-G is a minor third. G-Bb is a minor third; Bb to D is a major third.
The last example, the "maj9" is formed by adding the 9th to a maj7 chord.
Cmaj9 is C-E-G-B-D.
Again, it's all about stacking thirds: C-E = major third; E-G= minor third; G-B=major third; and B-D=minor third.
(If you notice a pattern here, you are starting to get it. Your garden variety chords, ie those built from the notes in a major scale, are formed by stacking up thirds. And you can keep going, too.)
OK, now of these examples, only the C9 chord can't be made from the notes in the C scale. (By the way it is possible to generate the Cadd2, Csus2 and even the Cmaj9 from more than one major scale.)
Guess what? Practically speaking, very little of the music we play stays in one major scale for very long!
Case in point: The basic Hawaiian vamp in C: D7-G7-C
Getting back to the examples above: if you want, C9 could be thought of as the "dominant" (V chord) of an F scale. That's why you will hear chords with a flatted 7th called "dominant severths" sometimes, even if strickly speaking you aren't using them that way. Like in a blues: C7 - F7- G7 would be the I-IV-V chords. Trust me, when you improvise over the blues, you aren't playing an F major scale over the C7, then a Bb major scale over the F7, and finally a C major scale over the G7.
OK, one more thing- just because I gave these examples with major triads doesn't mean you can't have minor 9ths or minor add2 chords (though for some reason they are more generally called "add 9s" - nobody said musicians are consistant.)
I've even seen chords called something like "Cmin sus2"-- which is absurd on the face of it (why? cuz without a third the chord doesn't sound major or minor) but can be useful if you are improvising...
Also: you can "alter" 9ths by raising or lowering them by a half step:
C7b9 is C-E-G-Bb-Db
C7#9 is C-E-Bb-D#
But now we are really getting outside of the major scale.
I hope this helps. To make sure you understand it, try writing writing down all the add2, sus 2, 9 and maj9 chord examples in all the common keys.
Then try to write down the differences between 6ths and 13ths with both C major and C minor triads.
Then ponder the 6/9 chord. (He said, smiling devilishly.)
For extra credit, what's the difference between these two chords:
Csus
C11
They'll be a test the next time you are in a jam session.
Happy counting!
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Edited by - Mark on 09/19/2007 08:19:03 AM |
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Mika ele
Ha`aha`a
USA
1493 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2007 : 3:27:47 PM
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OK
A practical question (from someone without perfect pitch)
If I am just listening to a recorded song (let's say . . "Maui Boy"), how can I tell what key it is being played in? |
E nana, e ho'olohe. E pa'a ka waha, e hana ka lima. |
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Absolute
Lokahi
275 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2007 : 4:49:03 PM
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I've been reading about chords. I don't know the answer, but here are some of the things I've read:
1. Some songs are characteristically played in a certain key.
2. Guitarists tend to favor certain keys because they permit more open strings.
3. Some bands ("U2") are known to prefer certain keys and chords. How well do you know the band?
If you are just listening, you might try coming up with a chord based tab of the song, and see what happens if you play those numbered chord sequences in different keys along with the basic recording. Do the notes blend in, or do they sound wrong? As I said, I don't know. At best you might, with concerted effort, narrow it down a bit to one or two keys that might sound okay to an untrained ear. As I said, I don't know. I'm just taking a wild guess. (Back to downloading "Flash 7" for the chord tutorial.) |
Thank you. |
Edited by - Absolute on 09/19/2007 4:50:56 PM |
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sm80808
Lokahi
347 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2007 : 6:36:47 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark
Then try to write down the differences between 6ths and 13ths with both C major and C minor triads.
Then ponder the 6/9 chord. (He said, smiling devilishly.)
For extra credit, what's the difference between these two chords:
Csus
C11
They'll be a test the next time you are in a jam session.
Happy counting!
C6/9 = CEGDA
Csus = CFG
C11 = CEGBbDF (although #11 is more useful )
Right?
etc. etc. it isn't that bad one you get the hang of it.
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sm80808
Lokahi
347 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2007 : 6:48:34 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Mika ele
OK
A practical question (from someone without perfect pitch)
If I am just listening to a recorded song (let's say . . "Maui Boy"), how can I tell what key it is being played in?
One way would be to play the melody notes (rewind/repeat, isolating it a little by little at a time) and get them under your fingers.
Then when u get the hang of it try to see what scales chords fit with the line. Try to figure out the progression a little at a time even if it is just the root note of the chord. Also take note of if it sound major or minor. It might be hard to hear at first but if you tune your ears to it it gets gradually easier.
If you have the roots, try playing chords with the note in the root.
Ex.:
in popular western/hawaiian music a C in the bass would most likely be the root note of a C chord of some sort.
If not, it could be the 5th meaning it would be an F chord of some sort.
Maybe it is the third of the chord and possibly it is an Ab major, or A minor chord of some sort.
It isn't that common (but not unheard of) to have a 7th, 9th or other extension in the bass, so they can usually be narrowed out from the get go.
Mainly though, it is trial and error.
Good luck. |
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Reid
Ha`aha`a
Andorra
1526 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2007 : 02:08:38 AM
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Stick a chromatic tuner (like a little Korg 30) in front of the speaker (works best if song is a solo, but also works other times). You will get certain notes a lot - like tonic, dominant, etc. From those frequent notes, it is easy to guess the key. Recently, I did that with a slack key piece and got lots of Es and Bs, and I couldn't believe the piece was in E, but it was. Proved by playing a few chords on the guitar behind the piece.
...Reid |
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sm80808
Lokahi
347 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2007 : 03:54:04 AM
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| Or you can use a transcription program like "Transcribe!". |
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Momi
Lokahi
402 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2007 : 06:55:53 AM
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The thread has evolved beyond the original query, but here's what James Hill wrote in response to my email query about whether he plays with a high or low G:
"The answer is simple: I use both tunings because they both have their benefits." |
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noeau
Ha`aha`a
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2007 : 08:19:29 AM
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Right on Momi. If you play slack key ,I know this one uke thread. You can tell drop C from Taro patch G and you know D wahine from Maunaloa and so forth.
But if you try to get a key from Gabby or Sons of Hawaii going be hard because they never tune to concert. If you know the chords to asong and you going sing just play any key that fits your vocal range. It is not rocket science. I know that beginners have a hard time and i am not trying to give any one a hard time myself. But play, play, play and someday the light going come on so bright you gotta wear shades. Thas why jazz and blues guys wear them. |
No'eau, eia au he mea pa'ani wale nō. |
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sm80808
Lokahi
347 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2007 : 09:32:25 AM
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I remember when I was first trying to play along to the Ka'au Crater Boys albums. I would tune my G string to a note in the song and then tune the rest up to match that string. Then I would put on the second album.. and had to tune down a half step or so. It was made a little easier with their albums because the "banjo" picking that Troy Fernandez did used a lot of open G string in it.
Eventually, because I played along with albums like , I got better at figuring out chord progressions. It is kind of a functional way of training the ear. YMMV
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basilking
Lokahi
124 Posts |
Posted - 09/22/2007 : 8:29:04 PM
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Regarding "low G vs high G": at a dinner in my house this past week a gifted old-school-falsetto-singer local guy was confused by my "low G" tenor, asked for a "regular" uke. Next closest one to hand was a '20s "taropatch"/8-string Martin which he "got" pretty quickly. Amazing singing/playing. Mainly a guitar-player, I like the taropatch tuning's offering of both "high" and "low" G notes; can strum like an uke, also run a melody across all four courses without thinkin' like a banjo player...
Re "knucklebuster" extended chords [9ths, whatevers] I say just learn the ones that sound good and work well for what you do, unless the delectation of tritones is part of the pleasure...
DMa9, so named to ensure the "dominant/flatted" 7th [C] isn't used instead of C#. |
Edited by - basilking on 09/22/2007 9:09:26 PM |
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