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Absolute
Lokahi
275 Posts |
 Posted - 09/17/2007 : 07:08:39 AM
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You mean as in a dominant sevent chord, as opposed to a major seventh chord? Huh? (See cave man in commercial for expression on my face...)
Okay, I read it over again. You're saying the "break point" for just adding the chord named to the major version of te cord is the 7th. Above that the chords are based on the major triad plus the seventh (making it a dominant seventh) as opposed to a major seventh plus whatever note is at the interval named, as in the ninth.
Okay, now let me ask that other question I've been itching to ask. Is the difference between a dominant seventh and a major seventh strictly a matter of adding one semitone to the note you would add to form the dominant seventh? (Going from D7 to Dma7 then is a matter of adding C# instead of C to the D major chord?
"Thank-eee" kindly for any response to this one. I hate wondering what all these weird chord names are all about, and this is as close as I can come to going back to school in a setting where I won't be surrounded by "real musicians" who roll their eyes at my questions in a venue where I have to watch them doing it! |
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Mika ele
Ha`aha`a
USA
1493 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2007 : 07:12:06 AM
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yes
a C7th is C-E-G-Bb (a dominant 7th add a flatted seventh note of the C Major scale)
a CM7th is C-E-G-B (a Major seventh adds the seventh note in the C Major scale) |
E nana, e ho'olohe. E pa'a ka waha, e hana ka lima. |
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Absolute
Lokahi
275 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2007 : 08:42:26 AM
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In "Discovering the Ukulele", Daniel Ho has D7 listed as a dominant seventh, and D7 is the D chord plus C. He lists Dma7 as the D chord plus C#. If one adds the seventh note of the C Major scale to D to get the major chord, Dma7, one gets the D chord plus B, not the D chord plus C# (as in "Discovering the Ukulele"). By similar reasoning, D7 would be the D chord plus Bb if the major version of a seventh chord is a half tone down from the note added to get the dominant version of the chord.
I'm more confused. |
Thank you. |
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Mika ele
Ha`aha`a
USA
1493 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2007 : 2:52:22 PM
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 ahhh ... but you have to use the D Major scale for a D major chord, NOT the C Major scale. You only use the C Major scale for a C Major chord.
The C major scale is C(1)-D(2)-E(3)-F(4)-G(5)-A(6)-B(7)-C(8).
The D Major scale is D(1)-E(2)-F#(3)-G(4)-A(5)-B(6)-C#(7)-D(8).
When you add the seventh note of the D Major scale (C#) to a D Major chord [D(1)-F#(3)-A(5)], you get a Dma7 chord.
When you add the flatted seventh note of the D Major scale (C) to a D Major chord [D(1)-F#(3)-A(5)], you get a D7 chord.
What is confusing you is the terms dominant and subdominant when referring to the degrees of the scale.
To keep things a little easier, lets use a song written in the Key of C Major.
The melody will mostly land on the notes of the C Major scale (C_D_E_F_G_A_B_C).
The C Major Chord is referred to as the Root Chord and assigned the roman numeral (I). The C Major Chord is comprised of the 1-3-5 notes in the C Major scale = C-E-G.
The next chord commonly used in the song is the F Major chord. This is called the sub dominant chord and assigned the roman numeral (IV). The F Major Chord is comprised of the 1-3-5 notes in the F Major scale = F-A-C. [F major scale = F-G-A-Bb-C-D-E-F].
The next chord commonly used in the song is the G7th chord. This is called the dominant chord and is assigned the roman numeral (V). The G7 Chord is comprised of the 1-3-5-7b notes in the G Major scale = G-B-D-C. [G major scale = G-A-B-C-D-E-F#-G].
Now -- the REALLY NEAT PART OF ALL THIS EXPLANATION:
With those three chords, notice all of the notes that were used to build those chords. THEY COVER ALL OF THE NOTES IN THE C MAJOR SCALE AND ONLY THOSE NOTES. So you can play one of those three chords and at least one note of the melody will be in that chord.
Also, when you play the G7 chord, the C note is part of that chord so melodically it leads you back to the root of the song. That is why it is a dominant chord.
Music is math and math is music. There is a reason why it works and it works for a reason. |
E nana, e ho'olohe. E pa'a ka waha, e hana ka lima. |
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rendesvous1840
Ha`aha`a
USA
1055 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2007 : 8:17:10 PM
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The major seventh note is comonly added to the I orIV chords as flavoring. The 2nd,4th, or 6th notes of the scale are sometimes used the same way, instead of the maj7th, ocaisionally with the maj 7th. The V chord, on the other hand, is a tense chord. Your ear expects to hear the V chord progress to the I to release that tension.Composers and musicians add notes to the V to increase the tension. The first note added is the flat7th. The 2nd,4th or 6th notes of the scale are added for a "hip",jazzy sound. These notes are part of the basic scale, and the resulting chords are known as extensions of the V chord. But they are added to a V chord that already has the flat 7th added. So a chord labled G2,or Gsus 2, is a I or IV chord.Usually,the 2nd or 4th replaces the 3rd in the chord. This gives a somewhat ambiguous sound, since the 3rd defines the chord as major or minor.The lack of the 3rd leaves the chord "hanging", or suspended. Pete Townshend of The Who loves these suspensions, especially the 4th's. Try taking the E out of a C chord, and add the D(2) or F(4).
Back to the V chord: Do we want to go further? Or have I created more confusion allready? Upper extensions of the V chord use notes from outside the scale, almost like a key change. The 5th, or 9th may be altered. (Flatted or sharped): G7b9, for instance would contain GBDFAb. Frequently, the 5th is left out,considered nonessential. If necessary, the 1 may be left ou also. The 3 defines the chord as major/minor, so it is essential. The 7th and the added notes are considered essential for the tension.So BFAb can serve as a G7b9 chord. This would be considered an "upper extension" of the basic chord. Bear in mind, these altered chords are not required for the harmony to work. The plain G7 would do just fine. These are used when a composer or musician wants the axtra tension, or just likes the flavoring they give. When I started learning these chords, I just had to see where they worked. (My Bad.)Old Time fiddlers gave me some funny looks. Swing fiddlers loved it. For the record, Turkey In The Straw doesn't need A7#5.(Oops!)Stormy Weather on the other hand, comes alive with some of these changes. Gabby and Cyril Pahinui use jazzier chords to flavor their playing. Not to the extent jazz goes to, but more so than more traditional slack key.
Paul |
"A master banjo player isn't the person who can pick the most notes.It's the person who can touch the most hearts." Patrick Costello |
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sm80808
Lokahi
347 Posts |
Posted - 09/18/2007 : 05:46:41 AM
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"Okay, now let me ask that other question I've been itching to ask. Is the difference between a dominant seventh and a major seventh strictly a matter of adding one semitone to the note you would add to form the dominant seventh? (Going from D7 to Dma7 then is a matter of adding C# instead of C to the D major chord?"
Yep.
Here are the major scales for common ukulele keys:
C:
C D E F G A B C
D:
D E F# G A B C# D
F:
F G A Bb C D E F
G:
G A B C D E F# G
A:
A B C# D E F# G#
So to make a G7 chord you go to the G major scale and use the Root(1), 3rd, 5th and b7 (flatted 7th) of that scale. The resulting notes are: G B D F
To make a FM7 (F Major 7) you would go to the F major scale use the Root(1), 3rd, 5th and 7th of that scale. The notes would be: F A C E
To make a Ddim7 (D diminished 7) chord you would go to the D scale and pick out the Root(1), b3 (flatted 3rd), b5 (flatted 5th), and bb7 (double flatted 7th) notes. The notes would end up being: D F Ab Cb (or its enharmonic value: B)
To make a A7b5 (A half diminished 7) chord you would use the Root(1), b3 (flatted 3rd), b5 (flatted 5th), and b7 (flatted 7th). The notes for this chord are: A C Eb G
Hope that helps :)
Wikipedia has a lot of useful info on these types of things too.
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sm80808
Lokahi
347 Posts |
Posted - 09/18/2007 : 06:02:32 AM
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For extra credit, here is an alternate way to look at dominant chords.
G7 is the dominant chord in the key of C.
If we look at the C major scale:
C D E F G A B C
and started on the 5th degree, G(root of the dominant chord) and moved up until we hit G again
we get:
G A B C D E F G
(looks like the G major scale with a b7 (flatted 7th) doesn't it?)
now if we took the 1, 3rd, 5th, and 7th note from here we will get:
G B D F, the notes for G7 the dominant 7 chord of C.
If you notice the relation, it becomes clear why the 7th is flatted in a dominant chord.
A couple more examples:
F major scale:
F G A Bb C D E F
F major scale starting from the 5th position:
C D E F G A Bb C
1 3rd 5th and 7th from this scale it would make the C7 chord: C E G Bb
(If you are interested see: mixolydian mode @ wikipedia)
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Absolute
Lokahi
275 Posts |
Posted - 09/18/2007 : 06:17:15 AM
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"ahhh ... but you have to use the D Major scale for a D major chord, NOT the C Major scale. You only use the C Major scale for a C Major chord."
This is a nice explanation for a musician who knows that D7 is a D-major chord based upon its composition. My question was fundamentally how to identify the composition of a chord (with D7 as an example). Lacking that knowledge (which notes to use to form the chord), I could not know which scale to use, hence the original rationale behing my use of a "generic" scale and a certain number of semi-tones as an "interval" up from a based note to get the 2nd and 3rd notes of the triad. If I knew which chords were in each key, I could immediately pick that key and use the approaches suggested based on scales for specific keys. I don't, which seems to get in the way of using keys to identify chord components. If I already know the notes in the chord as the basis for identifying the key with which it is associated, I don't need to ask how to identify the notes that form the chord. That's why the generic scale approach appealed to me. It doesn't require foreknowledge of the chord's note composition or someone saying, "Okay, Absolute, given that this is a D major chord, identify the notes that comprise it based upon the D major scale." |
Thank you. |
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sm80808
Lokahi
347 Posts |
Posted - 09/18/2007 : 08:43:39 AM
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I don't think I understand what you are trying to say Mr. Ab.
Do you want to know how to identify the key that you are playing in from the context of the chords in the song?
Basically, when most people begin to refer to how to "build" chords, the root note is the relative scale from which you start.
i.e. Any G chord is built in relation to a G major scale. (Same for C, D, E, F, G#, Gb chords etc.)
First you have triads, which are three part chords consisting of the Root, 3rd and 5th of its relative scale.
Ex)
G major scale:
G A B C D E F# G
G major triad = G B D (Root, 3rd, 5th respectively in relation to the major scale)
G minor triad = G Bb D (Root, b3, 5th " )
G diminished triad = G Bb Db (Root, b3, b5 " )
G augmented triad = G B D# (Root, 3, #5 " )
Then you go on to 4 part chords that go up to the 7th:
G major 7 = G B D F# (Root, 3rd, 5th, 7th " )
G 7 (maj min) = G B D F (Root, 3rd, 5th, b7 " )
Then you go beyond that:
following the pattern through the G Major scale 2 octaves we get:
R 3 5 7 9 11 13 R
G B D F# A C E G
(Note: 10, 12 and 14 are left out because they are the same notes as 3,5, and 7)
G 9 = G B D F A (Root, 3rd, 5th, b7, 9 " )
G7b9 = G B D F Ab (Root, 3rd, 5th, b7, b9 " )
then there are always other chords like:
G add 9 = G B D A (Root, 3rd, 5th, 9th " )
or
G6 = G B D E (Root, 3rd, 5th, 6th " )[baritone Uke tuning]
etc.
Hope that helps. :)
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Edited by - sm80808 on 09/18/2007 08:51:24 AM |
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Absolute
Lokahi
275 Posts |
Posted - 09/18/2007 : 10:46:26 AM
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So, D6 or D9 would mean to use the D major scale. C7 means use C major scale. G6 required G major scale. A7 is the A major scale, etc.?
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Thank you. |
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sm80808
Lokahi
347 Posts |
Posted - 09/18/2007 : 1:15:25 PM
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Yes sir. :)
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rendesvous1840
Ha`aha`a
USA
1055 Posts |
Posted - 09/18/2007 : 5:38:26 PM
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Not really. When a chord is identified as X7, you are to assume "dominant seventh" chord. Chords are named in relation to the scale they are derived from.
I is the tonic, named for the tone that names the scale.
IV is the sub-dominant.
V is the dominant.Sometimes called the leading -tone chord, as it leads the progression back to the tonic. A tonic chord may progress to a ii,iii,IV,V vi, or vii chord. More often to the IV or V. But the V makes our ears expect to hear the I follow it. This is why it's said to define or dominate the key. BUT: All the chords *in a given key* are derived from the scale named by the I chord.The steps above the notes in this diagram show the distance from each note in the scale to it's neighbor. This pattern of Whole and Half steps is exactly identical in any major key.
In this chartof the Cscale,w=a whole step and h=a half step.
scale: CwDwEhFwGwAwBhCwDwEhFwGwAwBhC I continued the scale through the second octave for illustration. Major chords start from a root note, and include a third interval above the root, and a fifth interval above the root.
So, C major starts with the root,C. a third up is E. A fifth up is G.The C chord= CEG. The IV and V chords are constructed the same way. So starting with F, a third up is A, and a fifth above A is C.So The F chord = FAC,and the G chord =GBD. The chords built from d,e,and a are minor chords. Still containing a root, and the notes a third and a fifth above that root.The chord built from b, technically called a Dischord,is b diminished. I'll have to research the rules there, I'm not remembering it all. When adding the seventh to these major chords, an interval a seventh above the root is added. A seventh above C is B;CEGB is Cmaj7.A seventh above F is E;FACE,Faj7. A seventh above G is F. So GBDF is G7, the dominant seventh chord of the C scale. GBDF# is Gmaj7, not part of the C scale, but the I chord of the G scale and theIV chord of the D scale, both of which contain F# and not F natural. I hope I'm clarifying, not confusing the issue. I studied this , but I'm not a teacher, and as I said above, some stuffs a little hazy in my mind. (Diminished and Augmented chords, especially) I'll be away 'till Sunday night, plus most of next week. Y'all have fun, and if I've raised more questions than I answered, I'll try again.
Paul |
"A master banjo player isn't the person who can pick the most notes.It's the person who can touch the most hearts." Patrick Costello |
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sm80808
Lokahi
347 Posts |
Posted - 09/18/2007 : 7:28:11 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by rendesvous1840
Chords are named in relation to the scale they are derived from.
^^^^^
I think that is all Absolute was asking for in the end. Sorry about my long answers Abs. I try to be thorough because I know that, personally, I like as much information as possible but it does end up being overkill sometimes.
Generally, as RDV1840 pointed out, and what I was trying to show, is chords are built on the major scale of its Root note (the D in D7 for example).
Beyond that we could get into a long (probably boring) discussion about modes and building the implications of dominant chords built on minor scales blah... blah... blah...
At the end of the day most basic chord theory books that I have read teach building chords relative to the major scale. That is good enough for me.
RDV1840: I think the chords you are looking for are in one of my earlier posts but here goes nothing:
Aug = 1 3 #5
Dim = 1 b3 b5
half Dim 7 [min7b5] = 1 b3 b5 b7
Dim 7 = 1 b3 b5 bb7
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noeau
Ha`aha`a
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 09/18/2007 : 9:02:08 PM
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| is bb7 same as 6? |
No'eau, eia au he mea pa'ani wale nō. |
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sm80808
Lokahi
347 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2007 : 03:20:15 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by noeau
is bb7 same as 6?
It will be the same note. You would get the correct note either way but it is technically a doubled flatted 7th of the scale.
extra info if you are into that kind of thing:
the dim7 chord is symmetrical and made of 4 parts which are a minor 3rd apart (3 frets difference between them).
C-Eb, Eb-Gb, and Gb-Bbb [which is the A note].
The Bbb is there to show it is the flatted 3rd degree of the Gb scale (i.e. minor 3rd relation between them.)
Commonly, you will see it spelled [C Eb Gb A] for simplicity which works just fine in practice.
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