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Sarah
`Olu`olu
571 Posts |
 Posted - 01/30/2003 : 10:47:59 AM
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I, too, have been told repeatedly that the words are of primary importance in the Hawaiian song aesthetic. Auntie Alice reportedly said that the instrumental part was "only half the song".
And yeah, a lot of song translations are quite loose -- more "interpretations" than translations -- so looking up some words yourself often gives you a fresher, and more direct, understanding of the lyrics (but one has to be careful of jumping to conclusions with incomplete research). For some reason, the english lyrics in Chas King songbooks are often really off the mark...I think it was the poetic license of the era - making songs into post-Victorian poetry palatable to haoles.
Poetry in general is hard to translate from any language to another, as it depends on allusion and nuance, and cultural imagery. Hawaiian poetry, with its many meanings and allusions (I call it an "aura" of meaning ;-) ) is often particularly hard to translate in to English in any succinct poetic way. I think that's one reason why people do "interpretations" that are quite loose. And it's another reason to get a grasp on the Hawaiian words oneself: one can build one's own mental image without having to put it into a real language phrase.
I heard recently about a jazz pianist who really studies the lyrics of a song before making her jazz instrumental arrangement. She then uses the lyrics meaning and phrasing to inform her arrangement, and inspire her tonal interpretation, musical allusions, and the ornamentation she chooses. Makes great sense to me. Reminds me somewhat, too, of what I imagine a steel guitarist does, ornamenting a Hawaiian song -- he/she has to know the song, and the mood, and the feeling. Stuff like that.
Sarah
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cpatch
Ahonui
USA
2187 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2003 : 3:18:51 PM
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jwn, your point is well taken but your example may not be the best...in the Hawaiian dictionary I have (Pukui/Elbert), the definition for "huli" is:
To turn, reverse; to curl over, as a breaker; to change, as an opinion or manner of living.
In other words, the poetic version is there, as is the vernacular. |
Craig
My goal is to be able to play as well as people think I can. |
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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2003 : 10:25:09 PM
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A little off the point, but Eva Cassidy was one singer who used the words of a song to come up with incredible arrangements. Her rendition of "Over The Rainbow" cut through decades of bad associations to reveal an astonishingly beatful song. After I heard Eva I dug out some vintage Garland and listened to two of her "Raunbows." -- they were fantastic, but Eva's was even better. Too bad Eva died. (P.S> I don't think her "latest" release which is posthumous is all that great -- get the one with "Rainbow." -- lots of pother great songs there too.
Raymond Stovich
San Jose
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hapakid
Luna Ho`omalu
USA
1533 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2003 : 01:28:44 AM
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When I started this thread about pronunciation, I was thinking about how inadequate the western alphabet has been at representing the language, and thereby helping non-residents learn to speak it, even a little bit. Think of driving over the Pali (PUH-lee, not polly), of arriving in Kaneohe (usually pronounced "kuh-nee-OH-heh", not "kah-nay-OH-hey") or how the "i" and "e" often sound the same when singing phrases like "e walea ai" or "i ka la".
On the subject of pronunciation, I've been listening to Uncle Joe Keawe's falsetto CD made in the late 70s. By then he'd been living in California for more than 20 years and it shows in his pronunciation. His early recordings, mostly as an unnamed singer fronting some Waikiki bands, seemed to have more consistent pronunciation.
On the other hand, he's one of the most powerful (vocally) and smooth falsettos you'll ever hear, louder in the falsetto range than Dennis Pavao and others with a natural falsetto range. My mom said her Uncle Joe liked to take out his dentures before he sang so they wouldn't be in the way! Good leo ki`eki`e kicks `okole.
Another observation, it seems that island songs that switch back and forth between English and Hawaiian in the same song can foul up pronunciation unless the singer is very disciplined.
I agree with others that understanding translations and kaona of a song is vitally important. But most of us sit on our patio and play songs we heard on a CD of the Makaha Sons or Hui `Ohana, so those of us who are not into performing are content with just singing the song correctly and for our own benefit, rather than interpreting the heavy kaona behind the words. And some songs are, for the most part, just what they translate out to be, such as "Kanaka Waiwai", "Ulupalakua" or "Kipu Kai", among hundreds of others that survive in our repertiore of standards.
Jesse Tinsley |
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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2003 : 02:35:53 AM
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Jesse,
From another perspective, your thread touches on a lot of issues. Pronunciation, syntax and vocabulary change over time -- as well as with geographic changes. As people move around, their language enters into a dialogue with the lingua franca, and both are changed. I've studied some of that process in classical Greek and Latin, and modern Polish. It seems that the "academics" always bemoan these changes as some form of degeneration, but people who speak the language daily just go on - and the language changes. The most fascinating thing for me was to study a pattern as it changed over about 250 years. What happened was that every 75 years or so the academic crowd latched onto the usage of about 10 - 15 years prior, and bemoaned the common man's lack of education, sophistication, etc. as they spoke an "impure" form of that language -- only to have that "impure form" become the standard in another 75 years. I have come to think that academic linguists are usually living in some fantasy world and am much more comfortable with the living language. (By the way, I was one of those "academics.") I don't really know how much of this applies to the scene in Hawaii where much of the indigenous linguistic scene seems more like a hair just this side of revival, and where the language scene is so closely tied to the political scene, nor does this excuse simply laziness.
I guess with linguistics, as with slack key, as with anything -- if it is alive it will change over time.
Raymond Stovich
San Jose, CA |
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Admin
Pupule
USA
4551 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2003 : 09:56:24 AM
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The Hawaiian language is such a fascinating animal. Getting back to Jesse's original post, one major problem is that it is very difficult to find native Hawaiian speakers today. I agree with Raymond's comments about language evolving over time and that the language is indeed "a hair just this side of revival.". One must keep in mind a major bump in the road (or perhaps road block is a better term) that the Hawaiian language had that many others did not. The Hawaiian language was virtually outlawed at one point. Imagine a period when Hawaiian language (and culture) was not even taught at Kamehameha school. Auntie Nona Beamer was expelled from Kamehameha for doing hula and chant. Hard to believe but true.
If you're serious about studying Hawaiian, I suggest checking out the online course at UH Hilo implemented by Keola Donaghy. Personally, I'm not ready but maybe you are.
http://www.taropatch.net/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=499 |
Andy |
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Reid
Ha`aha`a
Andorra
1526 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2003 : 3:13:11 PM
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Yeah, Jesse, those short vowels always nail me - I almost always substitute a long one. I wish there were some diacritical notation, like the inverse of a kahakö, that would indicate a short vowel. The only other way I know how to do it is to listen to "correct" speakers, and as Andy has pointed out, they are few and far between, these days - especially on the Right Coast. Kaliko Beamer-Trapp drummed one into us - "make" (as in ka pua`a that was make loa in na pua and pilau, too - remember that one Lawrence :-). Also, Keali`i sings a song about na pali that sounds so close to the southern Italian pronounciation of Napoli, that it always makes me laugh, but I'll always remember that short a.
Also, Jesse, did you say that your mother learned Hawaiian from Auntie Kawena and was that Kawena Pukui? If so, do you have any recollection of descriptions of her and could you share them? She is one of my all-time heroes. What a combination of talents, grace, intellect, artistry and industry. I wish I could have known her. Pat Namaka Bacon is her hanai daughter (and seems to have inherited many of her abilities) and Ozzie's song, Namaka's Mele, is dedicated to her.
Raymond, you are certainly right about the ever-changing and regional pronounciation of languages. And also right in your asessment of the precarious hold that the Hawaiian language has on existence. I would like to emphasize a point tangential to yours, Jesse's and Andy's that we are not so much talking about a language in the process of evolution, as much as a language in the midst of a tenuous process of recovery and restoration. A sort of base-building and rescuing from a century or more of conscious and unconscious destruction. It certainly helped the general cultural recovery that Gabby and others were so widely listened to, but it also certainly hurt the language - the core of any culture. It remains to be seen whether Hawaiian will be a "living language" in the sense of everyday discourse - apart from the few geographical pockets I noted earlier.
...Reid |
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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2003 : 8:14:11 PM
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Reid,
thanks for your comments. I think I will get some people aggravated with these comments, but I also think they come from a "positive" place. Then again, since I am not Hawaiian, maybe I should keep out of this. But I value Hawaiian culture and I have some real experience in dealing with languages. From the outside it seems that the spoken (and sung)language has been central to Hawaiian culture and I understand the need for its survival. I guess the heart of my comment has to do with strategies. Unfortunately I haven't seen academic approaches to languages revival and survival to be very effective in other cultural contexts. I HAVEseen two things work -- 1) getting little kids together with elders and letting them talk story. In this situation, the language that is passed on is the street language, with the very rare exception. Typically a very small percentage of people get interested in a"high culture" form of language. In this respect I think people like Gabby - and dozens of kupuna in Hawai'i nei and the mainland -- probably have more to do with Hawaiian flourishing than will language classes. 2) The second thing that seems to help people return to their languages is their myths, stories and art forms. (Again, the key seems to be gettting to the keiki.) I think Keola's show in Lehaina is a good example. I think dozens of musicians who have "questionable" pronounciation can spark a revival. Look at this site alone -- how many individuals are getting to look at the language because of slack key. Frankly, I don't think the Hawaiian people really have the liberty to start diving into camps of purists and non-purists. Too much is at risk. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe a small number of people using a "correct" pronounciation is more important than many people speaking a "currupt" form. Then again, maybe art belongs in a museum and not in people's homes.
Raymond Stovich
San Jose, CA |
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hapakid
Luna Ho`omalu
USA
1533 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2003 : 01:28:33 AM
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As Raymond and others have hinted, the music we love is why we're having this discussion in the first place. More than 200 years of happy and sad Hawaiian history is wrapped up in the language, music, hula and other cultural aspects, but the music reaches out from 2000+ miles away with a poetic, heart-tugging beauty that we are now trying to emulate on the mainland, most of us trying to do it very non-Hawaiian places.
I didn't come out and say that music has "preserved" some of the Hawaiian language, because that idea is condescending towards the high notion of language and its study. It might be compared with English speakers, 1000 years from now, studying Bruce Springsteen's lyrics to discover the status of the English language today.
But the fact is that the language, which is primitive in structure and sound to our modern ear, is breathtakingly beautiful when sung and non-speakers want to try speaking it.
Another aside: My Samoan and Fijian guitar buddies chuckle at my attempts to sing Hawaiian. They love the music, as many Pacific islanders do, but consider Hawai`i something of a primitive culture compared to their own, which have been actively interacting with the world through seafaring and travel, while Hawai`ians were stuck on their little rock, mostly unheard from, until about a couple centuries ago.
In my job as a news photographer, I went to a historic preservation seminar recently involving local (Idaho) Indian tribes. A group of language specialists demanded (kindly) that I greet them in my "native" language. Their faces lit up when I said a few words in Hawaiian. The American Indians in our region, many of whose languages have disappeared in just recent years, see Hawai`i as a beacon of cultural heritage preservation. Many locals in Hawai`i, on the other hand, look around and wonder where na mea Hawai`i have gone amidst the kitchy tourist culture and locals living in poverty.
I appreciate the words about Hawaiian being a living and changing language, but I just don't want to be the one the change it by adding an authentic western drawl.
For more cultural appreciation, listen to Marty Robbins sing "Aloha `Oe" and pronounce "ho`i" and "hoy". Ouch.
Jesse |
Edited by - hapakid on 02/02/2003 01:35:34 AM |
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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2003 : 6:02:50 PM
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Jesse,
I don't want my opinions misconstrued to justify sloppiness and laziness. Especially non-Hawaiians need to do their home work on how the language should be pronounced. However, I think the situation is different for Hawaiians both on the homeland and in diaspora. I'm not accusing you or anyone on this site of the denigrating the way the elders, or even other younger individuals, speak because it doesn't meet grammatical or phonetic criterea, but I have heard that attitutde a lot and I think that it is not only discourteous but it is also harmful to the life of the language in the long run. (Hawaiians, too, if they are learning the language for the first time and not within the context of a living transmission process need to learn "proper" usage.) That said, from my perspective in which English is my second language, I would still put my money behind the language as it is lived in living rooms, backyards, etc.
Raymond
San Jose |
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cpatch
Ahonui
USA
2187 Posts |
Posted - 02/03/2003 : 02:56:06 AM
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Wait just a minute, I LIKE Bruce Springsteen.
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Craig
My goal is to be able to play as well as people think I can. |
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marzullo
`Olu`olu
USA
923 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2003 : 2:35:33 PM
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folks,
i was wondering if anyone could comment on how well Keli`i Kaneali`i sings hawaiian. i've been learning ku'u lei awapuhi (bill played a wonderfully sweet version of it the last time i was with him in waihe'e), and i'm trying to use the vowels keli'i used. i've noticed that he's been pronouncing final "e", such as "`oe" as an open "e", like "way" without the dipthong.
mahalo nui loa, |
Keith |
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Admin
Pupule
USA
4551 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2003 : 2:57:51 PM
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Let's see, I was told by a fluent speaker of Hawaiian that Keli`i Kaneali`i and Barry Flanagan's Hawaiian was good on some songs and not so good on others. As I was told, "It probably depends on who taught them the song."
On the other hand, I think "e" should be pronounced similar to "way". David posted a link to Kamehameha school's online Hawaiian lessons. Check this link http://ksdl.ksbe.edu/kulaiwi/index.html and then listen to lesson 1 (at roughly 6:40 minutes). You can get a quick pronouciation lesson on Hawaiian vowel sounds from a qualified teacher. |
Andy |
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