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thumbstruck
Ahonui
USA
2168 Posts |
 Posted - 10/09/2007 : 08:38:18 AM
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I was talking with Slipry1 a while back. He said that the acoustic steel's sound goes "up" unlike a guitar which goes "out". A demonstration of this was at a jam in the participants' lounge at NWFolklife. Jack had his 8-string Dobro and was playing Western Swing and across the crowded, noisey room, I could still hear his Dobro, but very little of the other musicians. His sound was bouncing off the ceiling over to my side of the room. Thus the query:
Would it be in order for an acoustic steel to have a sound port or ports on the lower bout, as this faces the audience?
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Reid
Ha`aha`a
Andorra
1526 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2007 : 09:55:17 AM
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Most of an acoustic's sound doesn't come out of a sound hole or a port. Think of the guitar as a speaker. The top (or resonator) acts as a speaker's cone - it is either a diaphragm, or an actual cone in the case of a Dobro or similar. The hole is like the port on a bass reflex speaker - some sound, but the air coming *in* and out of it acts like a "plug" (visualize a cylinder of air pulsating). The size of a hole(s) can determine frequency content ( a tuned port ): smaller hole=more bass (within reason). I know of one luthier who made his prettily designed port too large and his finished guitar was bassless. He got around it by installing baffles inside, after the guitar was finished.
There are actual diagrams on the web of all of this guitar and air movement happening.
So, the answer to your question is that side ports won't help redirect volume much. And, without careful thought, you will mess up the tone.
...Reid |
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Lawrence
Ha`aha`a
USA
1597 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2007 : 10:06:05 AM
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quote:
I could still hear his Dobro, but very little of the other musicians. His sound was bouncing off the ceiling over to my side of the room. Thus the query:
At the apparent distance you were from the band, and in an enclosed space, the instrument directionality probably did not make a lot of difference. You must remember that the physical design of resonator instruments was undertaken to make the instruments AS LOUD AS POSSIBLE. Dobro's (and their ilk) are (easily) 10-20 decibels LOUDER than guitars. That was the whole point of the design in the first place (back before electronic amplifiers existed), the designers were trying to make something even louder than a Banjo (and they succeeded)! Sure you heard some bounce, but unless the dobro player takes extra care to play as quietly as possible (and few do  ), they will drown out the guitars anyway. The sound hole only helps with the very low bass output from the instrument as it acts as a Helmholtz resonator (hopefully) tuned at a frequency just below where the output of the instrument falls off at the low end. These low (port) frequencies are not very directional either, so they spread out in all directions anyway. I worked as the soundman for a band with a dobro for several years, and no matter how crowded or noisy the bar was, everyone could always hear the dobro.
P.S. the dobro (and other resonator guitars as well) were not necessarily designed to be played face-up (Jerry Douglas style) either (or with action raised), even though this is the easiest way to play with a steel-bar. Mark Knopfler (Dire Straits) generally plays his National in the usual guitar style, and I have seen many dobro's played in the usual guitar posture as well, although it is more common these days to see them played "flat".
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Mahope Kākou...
...El Lorenzo de Ondas Sonoras |
Edited by - Lawrence on 10/09/2007 10:36:06 AM |
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Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2007 : 12:58:01 PM
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quote:
P.S. the dobro (and other resonator guitars as well) were not necessarily designed to be played face-up (Jerry Douglas style) either (or with action raised), even though this is the easiest way to play with a steel-bar. Mark Knopfler (Dire Straits) generally plays his National in the usual guitar style, and I have seen many dobro's played in the usual guitar posture as well, although it is more common these days to see them played "flat".
Actually, the difference is more than one of technique. There are two very different kinds of resonator guitars: square neck and round necks.
Most bottle neck players use round-neck instruments and hold their axes upright. Most bottle neck players can, and do, alternate between using the slide and bare fingers to fret the notes. Some play in open tunings, some in standard. Lots of blues players choose round-neck resonators for the sound, whether or not they play slide.
"Dobro" players use a steel bar that covers all the strings. That requires slants and tricky stuff to get certain harmonies, diferent damping, etc etc. That's the reason for the the raised action; the reason for face-up orientation, and sorta the reason for the squared off neck.
Anywho, they are two very different different instruments, as anyone who has accidentally grabbed the wrong one at a session quickly learns.
Yrs for splitting hairs,
Mark
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slipry1
Ha`aha`a
USA
1511 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2007 : 1:40:11 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark
quote:
P.S. the dobro (and other resonator guitars as well) were not necessarily designed to be played face-up (Jerry Douglas style) either (or with action raised), even though this is the easiest way to play with a steel-bar. Mark Knopfler (Dire Straits) generally plays his National in the usual guitar style, and I have seen many dobro's played in the usual guitar posture as well, although it is more common these days to see them played "flat".
Actually, the difference is more than one of technique. There are two very different kinds of resonator guitars: square neck and round necks.
Most bottle neck players use round-neck instruments and hold their axes upright. Most bottle neck players can, and do, alternate between using the slide and bare fingers to fret the notes. Some play in open tunings, some in standard. Lots of blues players choose round-neck resonators for the sound, whether or not they play slide.
"Dobro" players use a steel bar that covers all the strings. That requires slants and tricky stuff to get certain harmonies, diferent damping, etc etc. That's the reason for the the raised action; the reason for face-up orientation, and sorta the reason for the squared off neck.
Anywho, they are two very different different instruments, as anyone who has accidentally grabbed the wrong one at a session quickly learns.
Yrs for splitting hairs,
Mark
Hey, Mark - have you ever tried to fret a square neck? OUCH!!! Seriousy, most of the pedal steels I've worked with have plastic fretboards, and a lot of the old inexpensive electric lap steels (i.e., the one that Wanda has) have frets painted on the body of the guitar. They are there for reference only. You can hear in the recordings from the 20's of the early acoustic steels a "rasp' effect caused by running the steel down the frets at the side of the neck. Bob Brozman uses that effect. Hard to get with painted-on frets. |
keaka |
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Lawrence
Ha`aha`a
USA
1597 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2007 : 1:47:21 PM
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square neck and round necks.
Good point.
But more like splitting necks. 
Bob Brozman, for instance, switches modes sometimes several times during a performance, even during the same song (and his National has a square neck - if I remember correctly). And the Dobro player in my old band (it was a real Dobro made by Dobro) would sometimes play both ways (don't remember if the neck was round or square). But certainly, in these cases the action must be low enough to actually use the frets, which is very much lower than Jerry Douglas' appears to be. I've seen lots of other resonator players playing in the guitar posture, but never looked close enough to check for round or square neck. The current Gibson Dobro site shows most models are available either way (round or square neck).
My main points were that original resonator designs did not preclude playing in guitar posture, and that these things are LOUD.
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Mahope Kākou...
...El Lorenzo de Ondas Sonoras |
Edited by - Lawrence on 10/09/2007 2:38:07 PM |
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thumbstruck
Ahonui
USA
2168 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2007 : 7:08:24 PM
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Thanks for the input and outpouring! I haven't delved too deeply into luthiery and the attendant theories and practices. I am glad that some have!
BTW, I play a square neck Dobro (bought at Jake's Used TV and Appliance store, now just a memory) formerly in Bluegrass G, now in C6. I've played guitars with sound ports on the upper bout so the picker could get a better listen.
Also, Slipry1 doesn't play too loud on his resophonics. Others have told him to play louder, but Jack insists that the steel is a stealth instrument. |
Edited by - thumbstruck on 10/09/2007 7:11:22 PM |
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Lawrence
Ha`aha`a
USA
1597 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2007 : 06:56:12 AM
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Others have told him to play louder, but Jack insists that the steel is a stealth instrument.
Now that is a very good attitude for a resonator player to take!
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Mahope Kākou...
...El Lorenzo de Ondas Sonoras |
Edited by - Lawrence on 10/10/2007 06:59:02 AM |
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Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2007 : 10:30:32 AM
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Hey, Mark - have you ever tried to fret a square neck? OUCH!!!
Actually, yeah. When I was a kid, I pestered my dad to answer an ad for an electric guitar in the classifieds. We went over to this old guy's house and he handed me his lap steel --- which, naive brat that I was, I tried to hold and play like a guitar. I thought there was something wrong, boy howdy!
The guy graciously corrected my mistake and proceeded to play some hot western swing. He even offered to teach me. But no, I wanted to play surf music.
Now there's a road not taken, eh?
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slipry1
Ha`aha`a
USA
1511 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2007 : 1:40:17 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Lawrence
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Others have told him to play louder, but Jack insists that the steel is a stealth instrument.
Now that is a very good attitude for a resonator player to take!
Mahalo. The idea is to blend everything together. Usually, if I find someone playing too loud, they aren't listening. |
keaka |
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noeau
Ha`aha`a
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2007 : 2:36:10 PM
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| When I was younger and didn't know better I shied away from myriad offers to be taught something. I never took anyone up on it. My loss. So now I try to learn from whomever and whatever I can. It's never too late. Except the teachers who made the offers are probably all gone by now. |
No'eau, eia au he mea pa'ani wale nō. |
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thumbstruck
Ahonui
USA
2168 Posts |
Posted - 10/11/2007 : 03:14:05 AM
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You can't put old eyes in a young head. You don't know what you don't know. If I'd known then what I know now, they'd have thought I was a smart-a**.
And other such aphorisms.
I'm just glad that I have reached a point to appreciate what was offered at the time. |
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Karl Monetti
`Olu`olu
USA
756 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2007 : 3:51:52 PM
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Thumbs,
As far as the side port soundhole goes, they do seem to make a difference in where the sound goes, regardless of what anyone says of the soundboard acting as a speaker cone. Seems like anyone who plays my creation says, "what's that sound?" My response is, "Oh, nothing, just the sound of the guitar you never heard before because your sound hole is facing away from you, but this one is aimed right at you" |
Karl
Frozen North |
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Reid
Ha`aha`a
Andorra
1526 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2007 : 02:37:22 AM
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Karl, reread what Lawrence wrote. To recap: sure you get some sound out of the soundhole. It happens to be bass heavy and, as bass, is not directional (think subwoofers hidden behind furniture) and thus dissipates rapidly and is non-directional, by and large. You (and your commenting listener, who is also playing it, according to your account) are close to it and can detect it fairly easily. So, the player gets the benefit and few others do. If that is your goal, great.
...Reid |
Edited by - Reid on 10/30/2007 02:38:14 AM |
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Karl Monetti
`Olu`olu
USA
756 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2007 : 5:11:01 PM
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| OK Reid, so that's the theory (where do you get all this?) but it still sounds better than without the side port. And, my son found out that when plugged in, if you lean down and talk into the side port....zowee, you have your instant deep reverb mike for annoujncing the next tune! |
Karl
Frozen North |
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Reid
Ha`aha`a
Andorra
1526 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2007 : 03:32:26 AM
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Where do I get all this? I hang around some very accomplished pro luthiers - for a long time, over a long time. Sarah and I also have played a few hundred instruments in the last decade - don't own all of them, but played them. And talked to the people who made them.
You can get that other reverb sound by talking or singing into the soundhole of just about any guitar. In fact, Sarah and I used to fool around singing into one of our guitars and just let it ring back after we stopped.
...Reid |
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