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slackkeymike
Lokahi
440 Posts |
 Posted - 02/06/2008 : 8:14:10 PM
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I sat down today with some tabs and Oz's recording of Ku'u Kika Kahiko. Best I can tell, the tuning is B#F#D#F#G#D# (half step down from Montilla's tab). What kind of tuning is that?
Talk about "Tension Deficit Disorder". Could a longer scale length guitar be the answer? Its hard keeping low tension strings in tune.
I could probably use Audacity to up the pitch to play at a tighter key (not TOO tight!!). But I am curious how this loose of a tuning is accomplished in the real world (scale length)?
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Aloha, Mike |
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PearlCityBoy
Lokahi
USA
432 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2008 : 9:08:42 PM
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The song is played in C Maunaloa, CGEGAE. It's a beautiful tuning. In the liner notes on most, if not all, Dancing Cat albums, the tunings on the songs are noted for educational purposes. Have fun exploring C Maunaloa.
Aloha,
Doug |
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Peter Medeiros
`Olu`olu
546 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2008 : 9:20:58 PM
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Now I haven't listened to Oz's recording in some time so I'm just writing this off the top of my head. From the information you've provided (based upon the intervals between strings), this is a Maunaloa tuning in B natural, not B sharp. Starting with the lowest pitched string, the sixth, the enharmonic B sharp (B# = C) does not work or even make sense as a root note for the rest of the tuning. There is just a half step between the notes C and B (also E & F). If this is a B natural tuning, then the correct tuning should be this:B F# D# F# G# D#. If it were in the key of C the tuning would be this; C G E G A E. If the tuning was in Bb, which is what some of Gabby's later recordings were in, than the tuning would be this: Bb F D F G D. The reason why it's so low is because lower keys are easier to sing for some people. Use medium or heavy gauge strings for the lower tuning.
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slackkeymike
Lokahi
440 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2008 : 05:18:37 AM
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B F# D# F# G# D# is correct. My inteli-tuner is a bit unstable at that low tuning. Got a suggestion for high tension, heavy (nylon/cat gut) strings?
Do they really make strings out of guts?
Thanks!
Mike |
Aloha, Mike |
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Fingerpickin
Lokahi
117 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2008 : 07:26:55 AM
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Mike,
I just started learning this song recently (after trying a year ago and failing rather miserably.)
It is a very challenging piece, but what Ozzie taught me is to try doing this:
1) Play the song with your thumb, index and middle fingers only (not traditional Ozzie style, he usually uses the ring finger, too)
2) Your thumb has responsibility for strings 6,5,4, AND 3. This is what makes this song difficult.
3) The bass part often goes, 6-4,6-4, 6-3,6-3. Thats quite a space for the thumb to cover! Takes some getting used to.
Good luck and if you master it lets all hear it!
Aloha,
-Lance |
"Hey Lance, try watch." -Ozzie |
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Mika ele
Ha`aha`a
USA
1493 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2008 : 10:12:13 AM
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Mike,
I had a personal ki ho'alu lesson with Ozzie last May. He gave me the hand-written tab to his song, Ku'u Kika Kahiko and also Ki Ho'alu (which is also in this tuning). It is indeed as identified by Peter Medeiros and others as C Maunaloa Tuning C-G-E-G-A-E. The lesson was as much about the tuning as it was about how to play this song. Some say that Gabby Pahinui was known to play Hi'ilawe in C6 Maunaloa -- but I have also come to understand that he played Hi'ilawe in many C tunings that suited his mood and playing goals.
I do not have Ozzie's permission to share this tablature with you and he has been so inundated with requests that he has been reluctant to send out tablature. I have not seen Jon's tablature so I cannot comment on its accuracy. However, Jon Montilla is very good at listening to a song and accurately transcribing the notes, rhythm, and meter to paper. As you well know, there are several different positions to play the same note depending on guitar tuning so, absent a video of how a musician fingered a song, Jon has determined the easiest way for him to play those notes. This may not be the same way the artist performed it.
A young taropatcher from Florida, Justin, came to our weekly Slack Key Open Mike in Oceanside a few months back and blew me away with his version of Ku'u Kika Kahiko that he had created by listening to Ozzie's recording and fingering it out on his own -- you could almost swear it was Ozzie if you closed your eyes. But here is the thing -- he performed it in G Taro Patch Tuning because nobody ever told him it was in C6 Maunaloa. He was not limited by a sheet of tablature!
If you purchase Peter Medeiros' soon to be published books you will learn the fundamentals of open/closed and even/closed positions. With this understood, you will see that the root chord (G Major) position in the G Taro Patch tuning on the first and third strings is at the 4/5 position, (a closed position). The IV (C Major) chord and V7 (D7) chords are at the 0/2, 2/4, 5/7, 9/10, 11/12, and 12/14 positions. There is an additional G at the 7/9 position and the 0/2 position can also be a G6 chord.
In C6 maunaloa, the root chord (a C major) position is on the first and SECOND strings at the 7/8 position (a closed position). The IV (F Major) and V7 (G7) chords are at the 0/1, 2/3, 3/5, 5/7, 8/10, and 12/13 positions. There is an additional C chord at the 10/12 position and the 3/5 position can aslo be a C6 chord.
Ozzie has his "song anchor" on the first and second strings at the 7/8 position, and with the 6,3,5,3 bass pattern plays the root chord (C Major). With the positions I gave you above you can figure out his chord transitions and vamps.
The Intro and Outro use two chord shapes near the nut. A G7 chord x0102x, and a C major chord 000030.
With the information Lance gave you, you should be able to put two and two together and get five.
I prefer to play this song on my steel string guitar although it also sounds nice on my nylon string -- I use extra hard D'Addario Pro Arte strings. Remember that nylon (or gut) strings stretch into their new tuning so you will find that three minutes after you changed to a new tuning on a nylon string, the strings will have "rebounded" toward their previous tuning and your guitar will be out of tune. This cycle will take several iterations with brand new nylon strings (same thing happens on a ukulele) but will usually balance out after the second retune on "aged" or "broken-in" strings. The action on a nylon string (or string height above the frets) will not change much on a nylon string but can change greatly on a steel string guitar due to the large difference in overall neck tension and guitar construction. That is why medium guage strings make a difference when lowering the 6 string below Db.
I found that the intelli-touch tuner was unstable in many slack key tunings (either did not give a reading or gave a harmonic reading that was way off). This got progressively worse as the battery wore down. The newer tuners like Seiko work better even with weak batteries and in some cases cost less although the battery life is about the same. |
E nana, e ho'olohe. E pa'a ka waha, e hana ka lima. |
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Mika ele
Ha`aha`a
USA
1493 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2008 : 10:27:36 AM
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Oh yeah. Also remember that some artists tune their guitars and ukuleles by ear and are more interested in the relationships between the strings and the tonal response of a specific guitar than in the absolute concert pitch of a note. In some instrumental recordings there is only one instrument playing so the artist can either intentionally or unintentionally be slightly sharp or flat from concert pitch where A=440 hertz.
I think my hand written practice notes annotate that Ozzie's recording on the 1997 Dancing Cat Album "Kani Ki Ho'alu" is slightly flat from concert pitch which may account for your "tuning estimate". His recording may be closer to B-F#-D#-F#-G#-D# or B-Gb-Eb-Gb-Ab-Eb depending on how you want to write it. |
E nana, e ho'olohe. E pa'a ka waha, e hana ka lima. |
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Kapila Kane
Ha`aha`a
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2008 : 07:19:14 AM
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Ozzie does present this in workshops tabbed in C Mauna Loa...
On the cd, it is heard in the concert key of B...
because the guitar is tuned a half-step lower...
I believe that in addition to what's already been said, that:
1) It is a little "slackier" for the tension and reaction of the strings,
2) It's solo, so it's performer's option,
AND, last but not least...
!!!
3) In listening to a cd, it is more interesting for the ear to have a sense of variety...
This also occurs (on Ozzie's cd) on the tunes in Taropatch..
so even though Ozzie's tunes are all (or almost all) in these 2 tunings, the harmonic shifts you hear are in several different pitch centers...
C, B, G, Gb (F#), Ab (G#) etc...
You can get quite a few pitch variations from just a couple tunings...
In live performance, it's not usually so practical to worry about, or necessary..
because you're gonna talk story in between anyhow,
and psycho-acoustic memory is short!
But on recordings presented in a fixed sequence, (even if you don't think it matters and you aren't "trained" or sophisticated...)
your ear and mind hear and feel the shift, and the variety/interest it creates.
When you used to listen to the Beatles or other albums...remember how on the 120th listen, you could anticipate and perhaps sing the next song's opening lick in a distant/different key...or at least recognize the shift as familiar and "correct"!
When some of my friends record projects and use only a monotonous single tuning/key center, it limits the dramatic variety that adds to the enjoyment of listening...sophisticated or not...
Our sub-concious is smarter than the surface thoughts. |
Edited by - Kapila Kane on 02/08/2008 07:27:30 AM |
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rendesvous1840
Ha`aha`a
USA
1055 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2008 : 2:18:36 PM
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http://www.aquilacorde.com/home1.htm
If anyone is interested in natural gut strings, here's a site with info, including an overview of the manufacturing process. They are using sheep intestines. I don't think cat gut ever was really used, but several other animals were. The link above is the company that makes Aquila Nylgut strings. Latly pretty popular among players of ukulele and early style banjos.
Paul |
"A master banjo player isn't the person who can pick the most notes.It's the person who can touch the most hearts." Patrick Costello |
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Kapila Kane
Ha`aha`a
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2008 : 06:40:01 AM
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If anyone actually wants to try TRUE cat-gut strings...
I have one male cat I'll volunteer for research!
Well, actually NO...we prefer to medicate him...
If that doesn't work, then we're gonna take the kitty downers instead.
MEEEEOOOOWWW (say it ADAGIO),
If none of this works, the Prototype strings will be available in YELLOW TABBY ONLY...
Sorry, no musical notation, only TABBY available.
If all goes well....depending on your point of view, all later sets will be from natural road- kill only--colors may vary.
But seriously, even though we violinists used "catgut" way long ago...indeed I'm told they were some other type of gut (if it was sheep, it would explain my BAA-BAA Humbug style...anyway the name stuck.
And we should forgive and forget...It was before the "Phoshor-Bronze" Age.
Hope Peta isn't watching...
but of course,
Petalunatics never sleep...at least at night!
Confidentially, I am on their side.
Both PETA, and lunatics.
Gotta go, the male cat is marking my new leopard skin ukulele case cover. |
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slackkeymike
Lokahi
440 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2008 : 2:08:40 PM
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An interesting side note, I modified Oz's recording of Ku'u Kika Kahiko with Audacity. Changed the pitch up 1/2 step... worked great. Now I can play along.
Mike |
Aloha, Mike |
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Mika ele
Ha`aha`a
USA
1493 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2008 : 07:51:51 AM
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| You can also slow the tempo so you can learn some of the timing of the more difficult parts. I do that then export it as an mp3 to my MP3 player, put the earbuds in and try to keep up. I set the song on loop and work my fingers till by brain gets the hang of it. Ain't technology wonderful? |
E nana, e ho'olohe. E pa'a ka waha, e hana ka lima. |
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slackkeymike
Lokahi
440 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2008 : 5:18:44 PM
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Yes yes!! I slowed it down too. Pitched it up, slowed it down. Yes, technology is sweet when it works.
Btw, when using the the slow down algorithm (with anything) I can detect echo or reverb, anybody ever noticed this?
Mike |
Aloha, Mike |
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Mika ele
Ha`aha`a
USA
1493 Posts |
Posted - 02/13/2008 : 12:47:26 PM
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The way the human brain is able distinguish sounds is amazing huh?
What about the ability to recognize the melody as the same even though it is heard in several different musical keys.
I guess you can tell I'm reading, "This Is Your Brain On Music: The Science of a Human Obsession" |
E nana, e ho'olohe. E pa'a ka waha, e hana ka lima. |
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neeej
`Olu`olu
USA
643 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2008 : 8:30:57 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Kapila Kane
But seriously, even though we violinists used "catgut" way long ago...indeed I'm told they were some other type of gut (if it was sheep, it would explain my BAA-BAA Humbug style...anyway the name stuck.
Once upon a long-ago time, there was a small fiddle called a 'kit'---dunno if it was a true predecessor of the current violin or just arose about the same time. It was, of course, gut-strung (yeah, from sheepses), so the stuff got called 'kit-gut'...which then metamorphed to 'cat-gut'. So I was taught in school, anyhoo---how come I can't remember anything USEFUL?? |
--Jean S |
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wcerto
Ahonui
USA
5052 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2008 : 02:08:42 AM
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| Jean - that is great to know. Paul has often wondered about it because he knows they didn't use popoki. Thanks for enlightening us. |
Me ke aloha
Malama pono,
Wanda |
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