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thumbstruck
Ahonui
USA
2168 Posts |
 Posted - 02/11/2008 : 11:57:37 AM
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I've been thinking about getting a guitar and putting heavy strings on it, BEADF#B, a whole 4th down for accompaniment, filling out the bottom end. I've listened to a lot of bajo sexto and like the idea of rhythm and bass together. I know that George Van Epps used a 7 string with a low "A" and that Brazilians used a 7 string guitar for backing up mandolin back in the '20s. Anyone have any thoughts?
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hwnmusiclives
`Olu`olu
USA
580 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2008 : 1:04:59 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by thumbstruck
I've been thinking about getting a guitar and putting heavy strings on it, BEADF#B, a whole 4th down for accompaniment, filling out the bottom end. I've listened to a lot of bajo sexto and like the idea of rhythm and bass together. I know that George Van Epps used a 7 string with a low "A" and that Brazilians used a 7 string guitar for backing up mandolin back in the '20s. Anyone have any thoughts?
You surely could. Similar things have been done to make the guitar deeper or more mellow. The great jazz guitarist Johnny Smith used to string up a heavy guage and tune his guitar down a third.
What you propose that George Van Eps did does not really accomplish your end. His guitar was still tuned in the same standard range. He just added the low bass string. Chet Atkins did something similar by tuning to standard tuning but putting bass strings on the bottom and tuning them down an octave.
Think about this one, a creation of jazz guitarist Joe Beck which I use quite often for comping which he calls an "alto guitar": Take a standard string set and put the first and second strings where the third and fourth strings belong and then put the third and fourth strings whether the first and second strings belong. Now tune to standard tuning BUT tune the first and second strings down an octave and tune the third and fourth strings up and octave. Confused yet? The result is that you can play standard rhythm guitar chords but you get different inversions of them. This is especially nice when comping another guitarist so that you aren't constantly colliding in the same range. Then Joe did what Chet did and put two bass strings on the bottom and tuned them down an octave and he had the perfect tuning for accompaniment.
I have used Beck's tuning to delightful effect. With a little chorus or flanger, it can even sound like a Hammond B3 organ or other keyboard. I will have to dig out some recordings I made like this. But, be forewarned, they will be jazz/pop oriented.
If you try out the idea of tuning down a 4th, I don't think you will be disappointed as long as you pick the right gauges. I would love to hear the results.
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Join me for the history of Hawaiian music and its musicians at Ho`olohe Hou at www.hoolohehou.org. |
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Fran Guidry
Ha`aha`a
USA
1579 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2008 : 2:31:12 PM
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If the extra scale length doesn't bother you, Kory, there are a number of builders doing "baritone" versions of the their guitars, with scales from 26+ to 29+ inches. Larrivee and Tacoma are the two large volume North American builders creating instruments like this, and I think some Asian builders have done so as well. And many hand makers do baris, but of course the price is then a bit out of the "experiment" range.
Fran |
E ho`okani pila kakou ma Kaleponi
Slack Key Guitar in California - www.kaleponi.com
Slack Key on YouTube
Homebrewed Music Blog |
Edited by - Fran Guidry on 02/11/2008 2:31:54 PM |
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thumbstruck
Ahonui
USA
2168 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2008 : 5:02:38 PM
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Great suggestions, guys! I'm going to Puget Sound Guitar Workshop Winter Retreat this weekend and will get more input. I have some friends that play bajo sexto. The lowest strings are bass strings.
I play buttonbox in a polka band, and double on guitar (some mandolin too). The boxes we use have "helikon" basses, an octave lower than a standard accordion. Sometimes we do duets, Hans on the box and me on guitar. I was thinking of getting something with a bigger bottom end. In Europe, the parlor players use a contra guitarre with bass strings on a 2nd neck.
Til then, I use a bottom of the line Ovation plugged in and my Martin D-18 for acoustic gigs.
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bbenzel
Lokahi
USA
130 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2008 : 5:03:08 PM
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Sure, you're just building a short-scale baritone guitar.
First thing you do go here:
http://www.kennaquhair.com/ustc.htm
And download ustc.exe
Make note of the string gauges you are currently using for Taro Patch G and use USTC to determine the individual tensions and overall tension that you have going in your current setup (or if it's a new guitar, the setup that it was designed to handle).
Now you can use USTC to model an increase the string gauge on each string while tuning down and find a fairly close match for each so that you will not overstress either any individual string or the entire neck.
Next problem you may have is that some of the gauges will be too thick to settle into the slots in the nut. If it's your plan to keep the guitar in this setup you'll probably need to do some careful filing.
If you're going to do this I'd suggest getting the largest body size that you're comfortable playing -- most baris are built on a jumbo body -- they need the additional top surface to really resonate well.
Hope this helps,
Bill
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Reid
Ha`aha`a
Andorra
1526 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2008 : 03:33:16 AM
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Baris are all over the place, including eBay. A friend got a primo koa "Brozman" Santa Cruz for about $1500 a while back. It is sort of a slope shoulder D body. There are several Tacomas on eBay right now for around $700. Good for fooling around with :-)
...Reid |
Edited by - Reid on 02/12/2008 04:02:29 AM |
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thumbstruck
Ahonui
USA
2168 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2008 : 06:31:28 AM
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| Thanks for your help! I'll be going to PSGW Winter Retreat with Slipry1 and Noeau for some intense jamming. Plenty folks there to confab with. Almost like Taropatch, but in person with coffee mugs! |
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Lawrence
Ha`aha`a
USA
1597 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2008 : 07:31:16 AM
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Nice tool Reid... oops I mean BILL - thanks for the link.
I had written a similar tool for myself years ago in MathCad.
So few people have MathCad that I did not find anyone else
who could run it, plus this one has a nice GUI that mine
did not. However, in MathCad the equations appear as they
would on a Mathematical Chalkboard so you can see how the
calculations are done.
I wonder how accurate his string density (mass per unit length
in this case) measurements are, (and who's strings did he
measure - look like deAddario numbers to me). I can check this
against my calculator since I did use deAddario for the string
mechanics.
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Mahope Kākou...
...El Lorenzo de Ondas Sonoras |
Edited by - Lawrence on 02/12/2008 12:30:02 PM |
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bbenzel
Lokahi
USA
130 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2008 : 07:40:22 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Lawrence
Nice tool Reid - thanks for the link.
I had written a similar tool for myself years ago in MathCad.
So few people have MathCad that I did not find anyone else
who could run it, plus this one has a nice GUI that mine
did not. However, in MathCad the equations appear as they
would on a Mathematical Chalkboard so you can see how the
calculations are done.
I wonder how accurate his string density (mass per unit length
in this case) measurements are, (and who's strings did he
measure - look like deAddario numbers to me). I can check this
against my calculator since I did use deAddario for the string
mechanics.
I've never really been concerned with it being absolutely exact -- it puts me in the ballpark when I'm considering setting up a guitar for a special purpose tuning.
Bill |
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Lawrence
Ha`aha`a
USA
1597 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2008 : 08:25:27 AM
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True enough...
Strings only come in certain incremental gauges anyway.
But it is always a good idea to be aware of how accurate your calculations really are, so you know how much you might need to tweak. It makes no sense for instance, to use something like a plek if you are not pretty sure of where things are.
I would expect that doug's calculators are within 1% which would be reasonable but not extremely accurate.
I used to use my own calculator to buy custom string sets for Taropatch that were closer to optimum for my playing style. Of course, buying strings one-at-a-time made them twice as expensive and sometimes the shop did not have all the sizes. So I have given up on such perfection more recently for the sake of expediency. However, sometime soon I will install another "optimized" set and then have the guitar "pleked" because I am getting to much repetitive stress pain with my present setup.
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Mahope Kākou...
...El Lorenzo de Ondas Sonoras |
Edited by - Lawrence on 02/12/2008 08:47:26 AM |
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Reid
Ha`aha`a
Andorra
1526 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2008 : 11:10:15 AM
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Lawrence, you might want to edit a post above. I am perfectly happy to be confused with Bill, but he might object. Credit where credit is due.
...Reid |
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Darin
Lokahi
USA
294 Posts |
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Lawrence
Ha`aha`a
USA
1597 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2008 : 12:31:09 PM
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quote:
Lawrence, you might want to edit a post above.
Right - it WAS Bill who posted that very useful link!
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Mahope Kākou...
...El Lorenzo de Ondas Sonoras |
Edited by - Lawrence on 02/12/2008 12:32:17 PM |
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bbenzel
Lokahi
USA
130 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2008 : 12:57:51 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Reid
Lawrence, you might want to edit a post above. I am perfectly happy to be confused with Bill, but he might object. Credit where credit is due.
...Reid
I don't mind -- Sarah might. 
Bill |
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