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wcerto
Ahonui
USA
5052 Posts |
 Posted - 08/17/2008 : 10:29:15 PM
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I believe it would be normal to think there would be some kind of protests on the anniversary of the day Hawai`i became a state. Here is one of the latest stories from the Star Bulletin. There are also several other related stories. I'd appreciate hearing any comments that you may want to share on the topic. My take on it is that a terrible wrong was done against Hawai`i and its people by the U.S. government. It is normal for Hawaiians to be PO'd by that. It is normal for Hawaiians to have strong feelings regarding sovereignty. There is no cohesion among various sovereignty groups and widely divergent views on who is/should be a leader of the nation.
Now I know you guys are going to say, welll duh when I say that nothing can be done about sovereignty until the Hawaiians speak of one mind and are organized and get rid of infighting. That is the big battle that Hawai`i has to fight right now. How to come together as one and speak with one voice as a nation of people united to accomplish a common goal. There is probably no doubt that there are quite a few people who may have some claim to royalty. From what I have read and from what I can see, isn't the purpose of Kau Inoa to get the people to register their names and then eventually determine the methodology on the mechanics of re-establishing the Hawaiian nation?
Is it possible for Hawai`i to act as one unified body?
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By Rob Shikina
rshikina @ starbulletin.com
Many Native Hawaiian sovereignty leaders support the idea of groups protesting at Iolani Palace, especially on Statehood Day.
But entering the palace and trying to sit on the throne is more controversial.
"That's atrocious, for him trying to sit on the throne at Iolani Palace," said Charles Kauluwehi Maxwell Sr., a Hawaiian priest and a Hawaiian activist for about 40 years. "James Akahi is not the king of Hawaii."
Iolani Palace, the former home of Hawaiian royalty, has been the scene of many protests over the years, some peaceful and others leading to arrests.
Friday's attempt by a group calling itself the Kingdom of Hawaii, Nation to seal off the palace to the public and attempt to chain the group's king, James Akahi, to the throne are the latest actions by various sovereignty groups on palace grounds.
Maxwell, former president of the Hawaiian-rights group ALOHA Association, said, "The problem is we as Hawaiians cannot get together as one.
"You have all these factions or groups that profess to represent the Hawaiian people and they don't.
"We're in modern times. There's got to be a different approach."
Lilikala Kameeleihiwa, a historian and University of Hawaii professor at the Kamakakuokalani Center for Hawaiian Studies, said many people could claim to be of royal lineage. It's more important whether the people support that person, she said.
In ancient Hawaii, people would kill political leaders they didn't support, she said.
"He's not my king," she said.
"Just as a Hawaiian, I'm really glad that somebody marked the day by saying that I don't agree with admissions day," she said. "I'm glad he did it. We want this country back."
She said Hawaii became a state illegally in 1959.
However, she doesn't support physical violence for Hawaiian sovereignty.
"Until we have another constitutional convention, all of these political actions are good because politics are still continuing. The discussion is still ongoing. Not all Hawaiians are happy (with statehood)," Kameeleihiwa said.
Henry Noa, the prime minister of a group that calls itself the Reinstated Hawaiian Government, said his government is "able to fulfill obligations under international law to represent our former nation."
Noa rebuked Akahi's claim to the throne as a descendant to Kamehameha.
"Kamehameha I had 21 known wives," Noa said. "He had a lot of children."
He said the action taken by Akahi's group was a "costly exercise," given the number of arrests.
"He's got kanaka blood so he has a right to walk into palace grounds," he said. But when asked if he could enter the palace, he said, "That's a touchy issue."
Jon Osorio, a native Hawaiian and professor at the Hawaiian Studies Center at UH Manoa, said he believes Akahi's group is a mimicking the actions of the group that locked the palace gates in late April.
The lockdown on Friday shows a growing impatience by some Hawaiian groups toward correcting injustices, he said.
It's "partly the result of real frustration with the fact that the state is still operating, there hasn't been a real reconciliation between the U.S. and the state and the Hawaiian people," he said. "We're seeing the beginning of this and I suspect that it will probably continue to grow."
"There may be some frustration that older sovereignty groups and activists haven't been able to get the U.S. to the bargaining table," he said.
He hopes that if the groups are taken to court, they will raise the issue of the state's legitimacy.
Osorio also worried that the recent protests could cause the state to close off the palace to Hawaiians.
"That would be a terrible thing," he said.
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Me ke aloha
Malama pono,
Wanda |
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braddah jay
Lokahi
235 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2008 : 9:15:25 PM
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| Funny how this topic gets no replies,reminds me of the topic of talking in broken english.Again it seems that some don't want to offend,some just don't know,and most likely some don't want to open up a can of worms.You'd think that those in the know would share,this is an interesting topic worthy of discussion,at the very least we'd know how some of you feel,or what you know.Those who have the knowledge should jump in,once one does I'm sure more will jump in.Aloha braddah jay |
Edited by - braddah jay on 08/22/2008 9:16:52 PM |
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noeau
Ha`aha`a
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2008 : 10:13:28 PM
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Well, Iʻll reply. Before I left Hawaiʻi I was a docent at the palace. We shared the history of the building and the history of the inhabitants with all visitors whether they were Hawaiian or not. While I believe that we need to remember our history and honor our past it is better to look to the future. The palace is just building. When it was first built it replaced the first palace that was built by Kamehameha III. King Kalākaua wanted this building to be a symbol of pride to the people. He wanted to show the world that the Hawaiian Kingdom was viable and deserved to be respected as a nation among nations in the current world of his time.
Today the palace is a reminder of the past and a symbol of the struggle that the nation had as it faced the pressure of the outside world. The monarchs were disrespected and plots were hatched to overthrow them at the first opportunity. This took place when Liliʻuokalani was reigning monarch and the Hawaiian nation lost the power to govern itself.
The palace today is just a museum and the artifacts therein are precious only so far as their value is maintained as furnishings from that era. The throne is just a wooden chair gilded in gold leaf and upholstered in silk.
Many people place many different values on the building. While the land itself is sacred to many Hawaiian people I think the building is irrelevant to the sovereignty movement. The movement itself must be one that unites the Hawaiian people as one entity that can organize itself to face the governments that arrogantly feel that they have a right to exist and rule in Hawaiʻi. I donʻt care if anyone gets offended or have their feelings hurt. I said before that I am Hawaiian and that is that. Thas why I get hūhū when people who are not Hawaiian try to say things when they donʻt know what they are talking about. I no kea if they get PHD, XYZ or any kine liʻdat.
Most of this stuff is not found in books and history classes. And no amount of scholarship or apologizing is going to appease the wrong that was brought on the Hawaiian people. It was an act of greed and avarice and arrogant meanness perpetrated by vile, evil people. I do wish the Hawaiian people would get their act together. Again and this just my opinion. The ones who claim kingship or queenship are just full of it. Part of the reason Hawaiʻi got lost was because of the aliʻi abandoning their duty to become kings and queens. They neglected the duties that they were born to perform to make believe that they were as good as Europeans and Americans when they might have been better off just being Hawaiian.
That was good enough already.
I say all of the above with aloha and I donʻt blame anybody today for what occurred in the past. But just like in the USA there is too much money involved and the fat cats ainʻt goin to let Hawaiʻi get sovereignty for nuttin. Hawaiian lifestyle is not a money maker by capitalist standards so they goin all out for maintain the current status quo. And that goal is achieved by keeping the Hawaiian people separated and in conflict with each other. Just like national campaigns in the US, the spread of misinformation and rumors keep us ignorant and at each otherʻs throats. Until we develop a national identity and a spirituality that is not based in bigotry we will never present a united front that can be recognized as the modern Hawaiian Nation.
The US will not recognize the Hawaiian claim to sovereignty and they will not give up one of the most strategic military positions in the world. Pearl Harbor was the main reason the US got interested in the area. The Spanish American war would not have been a successful venture for the US if not for the prime location in the Pacific of the Hawaiian island chain. That still holds true today when the US is beginning to exercise its empiricism towards the Asian continent.
Is the desire for Hawaiian sovereignty a pipe dream? I think not but we need to be realistic about it when we are dealing with one of the most powerful and dangerous countries in the world. It can bully Iraq and waste time in Afghanistan when the Taliban is rebuilding in Pakistan. It is too chicken to face Russia but I know they would not stop at crushing the Hawaiian Movement if it got serious.
Thats my story and Iʻm sticking to it. |
No'eau, eia au he mea pa'ani wale nō. |
Edited by - noeau on 08/22/2008 10:24:50 PM |
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Hula Rider
Lokahi
USA
215 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2008 : 06:31:20 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by wcerto
. . .
Is it possible for Hawai`i to act as one unified body?
We could use the US legislators as an example. They always seem to agree on things! :-)
Malama pono,
Leilehua |
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Hula Rider
Lokahi
USA
215 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2008 : 06:34:13 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by noeau
. . . Thats my story and Iʻm sticking to it.
Good story with much wisdom.
Malama pono,
Leilehua |
Edited by - Hula Rider on 08/23/2008 06:34:53 AM |
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Hula Rider
Lokahi
USA
215 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2008 : 06:36:33 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by braddah jay
Funny how this topic gets no replies,reminds me of the topic of talking in broken english.Again it seems that some don't want to offend,some just don't know,and most likely some don't want to open up a can of worms.You'd think that those in the know would share,this is an interesting topic worthy of discussion,at the very least we'd know how some of you feel,or what you know.Those who have the knowledge should jump in,once one does I'm sure more will jump in.Aloha braddah jay
Nah - just hard to reply w/ no power, no cable, and borrowed computer that keeps re-writing my text.--- ly |
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Momi
Lokahi
402 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2008 : 06:36:42 AM
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Right on, Noeau.
I was amused and relieved to read, in other media reports of the attempted takeover, that the group's intent was to chain Akahi to the throne, but they could not find the throne room. Chaining a person to the throne would have caused great damage to the artifact. |
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wcerto
Ahonui
USA
5052 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2008 : 10:57:42 AM
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What I am uncertain about from history is the point in time when it was determined to have an election for mo`i instead of blood succession.. I know that Lunalilo was the first elected monarch because Kamehameha V (Lot Kamehameha) died without appoint an heir. What I am less clear about is when did things change that if a monarch died without naming a successor that there would be an election. That seems to smack greatly of western influence. What would have happened in the older days if a mo`i died without naming a successor? Matter of fact, I thought it was normal for successor to be named as soon as the mo`i took the throne.
Once the office became an elected office, would that not end any claim of any of the descendants to the throne? Or are these people proving their lineage from Kamehameha the Great?
How havy is the involvement of Kau Inoa? Do the Hawaiians support or not support the Kau Inoa effort? I have heard some say that it is a way for the government to learn who the Hawaiians are so they can be "rubbed out" and thus the sovereignty movement will die out. Others I have talked to, believe that Kau Inoa is the logical, organized way of bringing Hawaiians together to speak as one and to show polital power.
I think everyone, mainland haoles and all, agree that a despicable unjustice was done, all under the protection of the official U.S. government. I also agree with what Braddah Al said about Pearl Harbor, especially with all the amount of DoD presence in Hawai`i, especially on O`ahu.
Clinton's Apology Bill did nothing. The legislative branch as well as the President have the power to do something about it. Why didn't they? Many people are diametrically opposed to the Akaka Bill. Why? Can there be a "do-over" ad this juncture? What needs to be done now? How can it be made better?
For those of you who have a rightful stake in sovereignty and reparations, what do you want to see? Can Hawai`i become a sovereign nation once again? Should Hawai`i as a nation try to live in both worlds -- the U.S. politacal one and the political one of a nation of self-determination?
Az y hahd. |
Me ke aloha
Malama pono,
Wanda |
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wcerto
Ahonui
USA
5052 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2008 : 11:02:00 AM
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| PS: Braddah Al - are you saying that things may have turned out differently had Pauahi accepted the throne? |
Me ke aloha
Malama pono,
Wanda |
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Hula Rider
Lokahi
USA
215 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2008 : 2:38:33 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by wcerto
What I am uncertain about from history is the point in time when it was determined to have an election for mo`i instead of blood succession.. . . . Az y hahd.
Well. . . . When I teach this stuff in my "Background to Monarchy Chant and Hula" class, we take November through July to develop the background to discuss these questions.
If you are interested, you are certainly welcome to join our discussions on-line in November, assuming enough students are interested enough to hold the class.
Malama pono,
Leilehua |
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noeau
Ha`aha`a
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2008 : 6:38:23 PM
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Yeah it gets convoluted. The move to a constitutional monarchy was at the behest of Western advisors. I donʻt go into detail but when I said there were numerous attacks on the Hawaiian rulers this is one way it was carried out. Things havenʻt changed much in politics. The worst kind of treason occurs from within under the guise of giving good advice. Some of it however was offered with good intentions. But all it ever did was delay the inevitable. If erosion of power and sovereignty goes slow like a tree rotting from the core no one thinks to question whether the cause was from outside influence. Instead they blame the occurrence on the ineptitude of the current rulers. It was their fault when the tree falls over. The traitors can then misdirect attention and begin to claim they can do better and the present ruler cannot do as well. It reduces confidence in the current ruler and his or her ability to rule effectively. One example was the spreading of the rumor that King Kalākaua wanted to market opium in Hawaiʻi to raise revenue for the kingdom. Their is no real proof that this was what the King wanted. But it had the effect of making the King look bad. Today the idea is that there is no one around that can lead the Hawaiian Nation. Now how does anyone know that for sure?
The question of who might have done what and what might have happened if someone did a particular thing would be speculative at best. But I sometimes wish Kaʻiulani did not die if she ascended to the throne the Hawaiian people might have had a reason to pull together and support their ruler.
I donʻt know if Pauahi would have made a difference. Remember her husband was Bishop who seemed to be a good guy but he also attempted to take a lot pauahiʻs inheritance from Princess Ruth and give it away to his non-Hawaiian friends. If she were Queen who would have been her main advisor? |
No'eau, eia au he mea pa'ani wale nō. |
Edited by - noeau on 08/23/2008 6:43:53 PM |
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braddah jay
Lokahi
235 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2008 : 11:30:46 AM
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Noeau,thanks for the knowledge you share.That's why people need to hear what really happened,and not the watered down version.Everyone needs to know,hawaiians and non hawaiians.If you think about it,how many people today know what truly happened? Not enough,again thanks for the sharing noeau. NO UNITY,NO FINALITY,HOW CAN SOVEREIGNTY.
Good T-shirt! Aloha braddah jay |
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ypochris
Lokahi
USA
398 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2008 : 6:18:23 PM
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"Part of the reason Hawaiʻi got lost was because of the aliʻi abandoning their duty to become kings and queens. They neglected the duties that they were born to perform to make believe that they were as good as Europeans and Americans when they might have been better off just being Hawaiian."
No need get huhu cause I'm not Hawaiian, but I have read many many books writen at the time and later on Hawaiian history so I don't think I am one of those who don't know what they are talking about. I strongly agree with the above statement, and think Liliuokalani's overwhelming desire to prove she was on equal social standing with any European played a large role in the downfall of the Kingdom of Hawai'i. When you read "Hawaii's Story by Hawaii's Queen", it is striking how much was written about who was there and what they wore, and how little about the concerns of the Hawaiian people. Perhaps if Liliuokalani had paid as much attention to politics as she did to clothes she might have gotten herself restored to the throne or even not have been deposed to begin with.
Another fault, from a member of races who fought the European invasion of America almost to the last man, is in the utter passivity of the Hawaiian people. I'm sorry, but how could a few planters, even with the help of a single warship and a few solders, have taken over an entire nation? Instead of literally lying down and dying, as so many Hawaiians did, if the people had fought back at the time, no matter what the cost, the treasonous sugar planters would have been killed and the American solders repelled if they had actually gotten involved, which is doubtful in spite of the apparent show of force. It took a lot more than that to subdue even the smallest of Native American tribes! Other nations would have supported Hawai'i if the people had resisted the coup, and the United States was not the all powerful, world dominating nation it is today back then.
As to claims to the throne, as Kamakau said in the time of the kingdom "any Hawaiian who claims NOT to be decended from Umi is ignorant of their ancestry". Perhaps the same could be said of claiming NOT to be decended from Kamehameha today- and as Umi made clear, purest bloodlines a king does not make.
Again, remember that this is all said with deepest love for the Hawaiian people. I hope for only the best for all the people of Hawai'i, native or not, and think all need to work together for a brighter future.
Chris |
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wcerto
Ahonui
USA
5052 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2008 : 01:13:28 AM
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I find what Lili`uokalani did to be the wisest thing for the Hawaiian people. Hawai`i had no military might. The Queen knew only carnage would result if she tried to oppose the U. S. Marines. It was her decision to do so only in the interests of not bringing further physical harm to her people. And the document she signed stepping down from the throne made it perfectly clear that she was not doing so just because she felt a flight of fancy. She made sure she spoke to the issue of "illegal" overthrow and of it being temporary. What the U.S. Marines did was in direct contravention to what the President said to do. Those Marines should have been tried for treason for not following the orders of the Commander-in-Chief. I often wondered why she would have rolled over and played dead, but really what she did do was probably the only thing she could have done.
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Me ke aloha
Malama pono,
Wanda |
Edited by - wcerto on 08/25/2008 09:08:10 AM |
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wcerto
Ahonui
USA
5052 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2008 : 09:19:46 AM
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I am wondering if Kauikeaouli and Nahi`ena`ena did not shock all the western people in Hawai`i at that time. Having sexual relations with your sister was absolutely outrageous in western society. All those business men and missionaries were shocked and outraged by such behavior, especial by Nahi`ena`ena who professed her belief in Jesus as the Saviour. They were caught in the conundrum between their traditional Hawaiian ways and those of the western people who came to Hawai`i. Perhaps it was that Puritanical moral outrage that made these malihini determined to do away with the monarachy since they could not seem to wrest all the old Hawaiian ways away from the ali`i. The story of Nahi`ena`ena is simply tragic and one can readily see how conflicted she was about wanting to be a "good Christian" and at the same time preserving her Hawaiian-ness. And then when westerners started marrying into the ali`i class, boy things really went to you know where in a handbasket. Reading Lili`uokalani's story about her philandering husband and his hateful mother just about breaks your heart. Or Kaiulani with her Scots father trying to make her into a haole and deny her Hawaiianess, by keeping her away from home so very long. Those stories are so sad and just about break my heart.
On the other hand, many stories have been written speaking to the issue of the men of the royal class being so addicted to alcoholic beverages, and so many cite this as the down fall of Hawaiian culture. Just like they have said about the First Nations here on the mainland. Why do they say these people are more "genetically susceptible" to becoming alcoholics?
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Me ke aloha
Malama pono,
Wanda |
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noeau
Ha`aha`a
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2008 : 10:31:01 AM
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Wow , so many replies so little time to address them..The discussion of the above topics could and has filled volumes of writings.
Chris I like what you say and as a man who as worked the land you certainly have a say so. It is not necessarily about color. I just question any statements that come from merely reading the history of Hawaiʻi. Remember history itself is clouded and shaped by the historianʻs viewpoint. Many good books have to be taken with a grain of salt so to speak. Kamakau for example,was a converted Catholic and wrote with that influence. Hawaiian studies scholars today are trying to write out the biases of Western Educated viewpoint. I donʻt know yet if they are succeeding. I did not temper my statement about aliʻi with apologies for the Queenʻs actions during the occupation and subsequent overthrow since it was common knowledge that the marines might have started shooting all people of color indiscriminately to make their point. Another example of this is when the Queen was accused of treason against the provisional government and some of them wanted her executed when she was found guilty by ,get this, A MILITARY TRIBUNAL. When she was questioned by US officials at another time as to what she would do to the traitors if she was reinstated she replied by quoting that Hawaiian law called for execution of traitors. She was made to appear that she was a savage who had no compassion and should not be reinstated if she was to execute the traitors. She did not say she would do that she merely quoted the law. So here we have another example of the pot calling the kettle black.
It seems that all non alcohol using societies were susceptible to alcoholism more readily than societies who had centuries of experience with the substance. Research seems to indicate there may be a specific genotype that allows for some people to not handle alcohol as well as some other groups. It is normally accepted that most non-Western cultures fall into the category of people that canʻt drink alcohol safely. Again not all people are vulnerable to alcohol in those groups but the numbers of those who are is much higher statistically than those cultural groups who are not as a whole susceptible. However this viewpoint could be challenged if one were to take a census count and list all known alcoholics by ethnic grouping. Iʻm sure opinions on this topic are myriad.
The use or misuse I might say of religion by Western colonialists is legion. Spaniards and Jesuits, fire and brimstone missionaries in the Pacific have one thing in common. Undermine the existing target culture by pointing out the so called inadequacies of their religious practices and institute change that eliminates the spiritual and economic underpinnings of that society so the invading culture may then move in and take over. This works especially well with cultures who value the land as a spiritual entity that may not be owned by individuals for personal economic exploitation. Change this basic idea of land tenure then the native culture can be successfully disenfranchised and the infection introduced by colonialists can spread. In due time the original host dies.
Jay, what I say from being edumacated in da schools dat make us homoginized. Is ok. I believe that we need fo get some smarts to make progress in the movement. It seems contradictory but I think this is what Pauahi wanted when she bequeathed her wealth to the education of hawaiʻiʻs children. I tend to begrudgingly agree that we must adopt the ways of the stranger in order to effectively fight back and exercise our God given rights to freedom and justice for all. Know your enemy but donʻt be completely like them. To do so would only enslave us to their way of life and we lose too much in the process.
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No'eau, eia au he mea pa'ani wale nō. |
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