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RWD
`Olu`olu
USA
850 Posts |
 Posted - 09/19/2008 : 11:17:12 AM
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I have had very mixed experiences with host PA systems and the host "knob-turning dudes" that are running the sound. I think I need to amplify and control my own sound a little bit more.
At the moment I have all LR Baggs Active Element undersddle pickups and a Roland AC-60. I use a Zoom A2 acoustic processor. It sounds pretty good and it removes the undersaddle quack nicely. I have not full used my equipement yet because I have been trying to be mic'ed with my own supercardioid mic through the PA.
I have heard some pro's play (and record) with guitars quacking away, seemingly by choice. It does make the notes penetrate a little more, but I dont care for it.
I am just wondering what some of you use.
What equipment do you use to get good acoustic sound on stage?
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Bob |
Edited by - RWD on 09/19/2008 11:27:50 AM |
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Darin
Lokahi
USA
294 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2008 : 2:00:02 PM
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Hi Bob,
I like the LR Baggs Para Acoustic DI (PADI) is still the best unit on the market.
I used to think the TC Electronic G-Natural was the best acoustic guitar pedal on the market, but it has a freeze-on-startup problem. I think it's a design defect. I had my G-Natural replaced twice and gave up.
The TC Electronic Nova pedals sound decent (Reverb, Delay, Compression). |
Darin
http://www.hawaiiguitar.com/ |
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noeau
Ha`aha`a
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2008 : 3:59:53 PM
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| I have begun to use studio condenser mikes you know the kind you hang in da spider web and a pencil condenser, sounds good like that. But out doors is different so then I use a dynamic cardioid and plug in . I used a Baggs DI but with most of my guitars. But lately I play a Seagull with a K&K pickup. It has awesome out put and PA 1/4 inch inputs are good enough without a DI. So I just plug straight into the PA like that. Different rooms call for different set ups. I wish I had a sound guy that could set me/us up where ever we play. |
No'eau, eia au he mea pa'ani wale nō. |
Edited by - noeau on 09/19/2008 4:00:25 PM |
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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2008 : 5:46:15 PM
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I play a lot less 'cause of the keiki.
Pretty much the only thing I use is Baggs Dual Source through a Paracoustic DI into SWR California Blonde. I don't have time and energy for the big festival type stuff anymore. At open mic =- well I would prefer to play without amplification, let people get close up, but I can't always do that, so I let the house guy crap up my sound, when I play. |
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RWD
`Olu`olu
USA
850 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2008 : 02:07:40 AM
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Darin:
Do you use an amp very often or do you usually go from the DI into a sound sysytem, or both?
The Baggs Para DI is on my list and it has been recommended plenty of times already. It must be very good.
I just tried a Fishman Aura pedal and found I could nearly duplicate it with the A2, and I get better clairity between strings with the A2. The fishman gives very very excellent acoustic sound at low volumes but problems show up at higher volumes. |
Bob |
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Fran Guidry
Ha`aha`a
USA
1579 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2008 : 05:00:14 AM
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I've probably not used my G Natural as often as Darin, but I've never had it fail to boot up. The G provides very high quality compression and time based effects (reverb, delay, echo, chorus, etc) along with three bands of parametric EQ. Since the EQ is menu driven it's too tweaky to use on stage, so I program EQ settings for each of my guitars to achieve the most acoustic sound I can get, and store the settings. Then I use the EQ Lock feature, which applies the selected EQ setting to all the patches in the unit. I've had several sound guys tell me they were impressed by the feed I gave them from the G Natural.
My biggest gripe about the G Natural is that it does not provide a DI function - the manual warns that phantom power applied to the outputs can damage the unit, so I run the output of the G through a Baggs PADI to protect the outputs of the G. I would prefer a simpler DI but I had the PADI before getting the G Natural, so I've continued using it.
The PADI is a rugged, reasonably priced, flexible interface device with two gain stages, an effects loop, and a lot of EQ in a small package. It includes fixed EQ for low, "presence", and high frequencies, a sweepable mid EQ (semi parametric) and a notch filter. It's a lot easier to use for last minute EQ tweaking than the menu driven tools in the G Natural. The noise performance is not the greatest, at least that was my experience when I have recorded the PADI, but it's never an issue on stage.
When I play in situations that include a sound engineer, I have to rely on that person to manage the house sound since all I hear is the monitor sound. I don't have a wireless or a 100' cord to take my guitar into the room and hear the PA sound, so any EQ tweaks I would make on stage would be done blind (actually, deaf, I guess). So I just aim to give the most natural feed I can and leave the rest to the sound engineer.
Fran |
E ho`okani pila kakou ma Kaleponi
Slack Key Guitar in California - www.kaleponi.com
Slack Key on YouTube
Homebrewed Music Blog |
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Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2008 : 09:07:28 AM
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quote:
any EQ tweaks I would make on stage would be done blind (actually, deaf, I guess).
I think I've worked with that engineer... 
Actually, I have. Years ago there was something called CETA-- the Comprehensive Employment and Training Act. Many non-profits discovered they could hire staff using CETA funds.
I was playing a gig at Eugene's (in)famous WOW Hall. During soundcheck the engineer deafened me and my partner by ringing-out the monitors–boosting each band of EQ to the point of feedback–while we were onstage. (This usually done when you first set up the PA, in case you didn't know.)
When our ears stopped bleeding I found out he'd gotten his job via CETA-- because an accident on his previous job had damaged his hearing! Yep, he was functionally deaf... and a soundman.
True story.
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Darin
Lokahi
USA
294 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2008 : 4:35:39 PM
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Bob, for smaller gigs I use an AER Alpha amp. I swear by it. It's sounds absolutely fantastic and weighs 13 pounds. You can also run a mic in addition to the guitar (2 inputs), so it's like a mini PA system. A Sennheiser 935e sounds amazing through the AER for vocals. Andy (Admin) has an AER Compact 60. It has the same basic guts as the Alpha, but it's slightly bigger and has additional EQ and effects controls. Andy can attest to how great the AER is. Jon Yamasato also bought an AER Compact 60 and loves it. Jon and I do small gigs with the AERs instead of a full PA. Jeff Peterson also has an AER Compact 60 and loves it. On the national scene, Tommy Emmanuel, Pete Huttlinger and Mark Hanson all travel with AER Compact 60s and use them as a DI/monitor. The other great thing about the AERs is you can mount them on a mic stand. The drawback is price. They're expensive and the price recently went up.
So, as a roundabout answer to your question, for small gigs I use the AER and for big ones I run through a full PA. I pretty much always use a pedalboard as a DI, whether it's with the AER or a PA. My current pedalboard is rigged with a Baggs Para DI, JamMan loop pedal, TC Electronic Nova Reverb, Delay and Compression pedals. It's a little over the top and looks like a spaceship, but I like it. Plus, since it's already rigged, it acts like a single pedal and I don't have to plug very many things in.
Fran, I envy your success with the G-Natural. I love the sound of it, and I'm guilty of encouraging too many people to buy it. Unfortunately, I don't think the G-Natural liked my pedalboard. Maybe it had pedal envy. . . Jeff Peterson's unit also froze on him in Japan.
Another thing that I think really makes a difference in guitar sound for a slack-key or fingerstyle player is the cable. I really like the Analysis Plus Pro Studio cable. You can hear the difference. Again, problem is price. It's about $300. But, if you get a chance to try one out, it's worth taking a listen. On Oahu, Dan's guitars sells them. I saw Jake on the morning news this week and it looks like he took it to the next level. Looks like he's now using an Analysis Plus Gold cable. I think they're about $2000. Yep, that's not a misprint. But, given Jake's facility and touch, I'll bet he can hear and feel the difference.
Hope I'm not rambling too much. I love talking about gear. Did I mention Tortis picks for anyone who uses a flatpick? Andy can attest to that one too. |
Darin
http://www.hawaiiguitar.com/ |
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Peter Medeiros
`Olu`olu
546 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2008 : 5:58:35 PM
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As an artist I prefer playing through a microphone because I like the sound of my acoustics and it is the only way that members of an audience can hear the true overtones of a guitar, especially when playing slack key. In slack key, the overtones create a certain richness and character that cannot be duplicated through a preamp. However, once a preamp is put in line as a sound source, the acoustic guitar is now compromised and becomes in effect an electric guitar. The quality of the sound is now determined by the quality of the preamp. Plugging in is done basically because people are lazy, and they have forgotten or do know how to use microphones on an instrument.
In general, each type of pick up has its’ own character. Many of the under saddle pickup designs are piezo thinline transducers mounted directly under the saddle and have a characteristic quack to them. Western under saddle pickups have a different design with three (some have two) small transducers mounted under the bridge plate. They have a warmer character with no quack. The magnetic pickups also have warmth and more midrange. But there are attempts nevertheless to come up with an acoustic compromise, but we’re not quite there yet. The L. R. Baggs and Fishman hybrids kind of address the overtone issue but doesn’t really succeed because the location of the mini-mic has a limited pickup pattern and is not in an optimum pickup location.
I go through hearing tests every six months. I have the hearing of a young kid. Now, speaking as one of the guys who work at sound for a living because at this point in time there is no one advocating for them, here are my two cents. Over the last several decades I have worked with some of the best guitarists in the world and they all had different rigs, needs and attitudes. In order to get good sound there are a number of different factors that come into play; first your attitude and then the attitude of the guy(s) handling sound; there’s also the venue; the sound system available; your guitar; the size of the audience; and even the weather if the event is held outside.
First, and probably most important, if really you care about how you sound then you should at the very least meet the person who has been hired or delegated the responsibility of operating the system. This simple act does establish communication and usually prevents problems later on. No matter who you are working with try and be as professional as you can and you will more than likely be treated well. Be an asshole and you will be treated as one.
If you are a featured act, then a tech rider with your specifications should have been sent prior to the engagement thus assuring that equipment with which you are familiar or equivalent is available and working. If you are a casual act, then a tech rider is not necessary but you should introduce yourself to the sound guy and see if you can do a sound check. If the guy is inexperienced help him out if you know what you’re doing. If you don’t know anything, well then it’s going to be a case of the soon to be deaf blind leading the blind. But try and work things out at sound check – especially the gain on individual sound source levels.
For a sound operator, gain staging and dynamics are perhaps the most important factor in any performance. It’s not good to have sound sources exceeding the amount of headroom established during sound check. A seemingly innocent 6 dB adjustment upward on a guitar preamp by the guitarist during the performance effectively doubles the volume of that instrument. If there are other guys on stage then they start increasing their volume, so it then turns into a battle on stage and the sound gets loud and muddy. They all blame the sound guy.
If the system is at or near unity gain – optimum volume -- then this may change the overall balance and volume of everything coming through both the mains and monitors. If the sound system does not have an experienced operator with EQ or an automated notch filter in line, an adjustment like that can easily kick a system into feedback. He can change levels but this should all have worked out during sound check. Individual monitor sends help immensely; ear monitors should be mandatory. They are discreet and can be fine tuned to the individual needs of the performers on stage. Unfortunately, they cost a lot of money, and as an artist you may have this option only with mid to large sound systems.
If this is just a casual gig at a small venue like a restaurant or community or church hall, then you should make it a point of meeting and becoming familiar with the sound operator and his equipment. Although the experience of the operator; quality of the PA; mix location; speaker and mic placement come into play, gain staging is still the key to getting good sound.
Anyway that’s my two cents. Didn’t we talk about this earlier?
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Edited by - Peter Medeiros on 09/20/2008 7:21:24 PM |
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Trev
Lokahi
United Kingdom
265 Posts |
Posted - 09/22/2008 : 02:47:41 AM
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I use a Zoom as well - the green one with the pedal - often on bypass. It has a volume pedal, built in tuner and an XLR output. Just having that on the same unit is worth it for me, never mind the presets. I go straight into the PA - I don't want to be carrying an amp around. However, there are some excellent acoustic amps around for people who need one/want one.
I use a replacement (Fishman) bridge for the mandolin and a small mic, made by Accusound for the guitar. It clips on, and is the most accurate guitar sound that I've come across. However, it is very very sensitive, and more likely to produce feedback.
I prefer not to use standard mics - it's not because I'm 'lazy', it's because you have to sit/stand stock still in one position while you play, which I find a bit of a drag, and I'm not terribly good at it. The clip on's the best thing for me. The Fishman on the mandolin is my favourite, because I can use a wireless with no belt pack, and can move about to my heart's content and not trip over the pesky wiring.
I always find it fascinating to hear what other people use. |
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ricdoug
`Olu`olu
USA
513 Posts |
Posted - 09/22/2008 : 10:21:12 PM
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I've gone to an all battery powered stage, so that the sound at our kanikapila is the same as at our events. I personally plug my Ovation Applause uke straight into a small combo amp.:
http://www.taropatch.net/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7224
The microphones you see in the photos in that thread are all super cardiod. I've been experimenting with large diaphram microphones, to allow for more movement on stage. The condensors don't work as well outdoors, because they pick up a lot of the wind noise and require phantom power. Ric |
It's easier to ask for forgiveness, than permission! |
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RWD
`Olu`olu
USA
850 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2008 : 02:56:30 AM
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It looks like I have slightly lesser versions of the equipement some of you are using, so I am going to go with it.
My Roland amp has a socket for a stand and weighs 25lbs, plus it has a lot of output options on the back. The Zoom A2 I use is quiet, has 6 band parametric/regular EQ, a bunch of effects, and a good tuner. The plug in footpedal also does bypass or mute depending on if you tap it or hold it down and when it goes into mute the tuner is running--a nice combination.
I started out trying to use a mic but I am going to aboandon that idea for now and use my amp to send DI to the PA.
Right at the moment I like undersaddle piezo because they do not amplify squeaks or finger noise. With a pedal to remove the quack they sound good.
Thanks to everyone that responded. I enjoy reading and responding to equipement and technique issues way more that any other kind of topic.
Darin: I appreciated your detail. I already have the stuff to do it that way so I am going to use that setup next time out. That is--amp on a stand and DI to the PA, or use the amp as monitor and DI to PA.
My last time out was horrendous. On stage the monitors were loud and howling with low freq feedback--it was very hard to keep going and not just quit--and I later found out that the PA volume was very weak and no one could hear it beyond 30 feet.
You can bet I made a solumn vow to myself after that one! |
Bob |
Edited by - RWD on 09/23/2008 03:00:42 AM |
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ricdoug
`Olu`olu
USA
513 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2008 : 07:44:59 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Darin
Bob, for smaller gigs I use an AER Alpha amp. I swear by it. It's sounds absolutely fantastic and weighs 13 pounds. You can also run a mic in addition to the guitar (2 inputs), so it's like a mini PA system.
That's an interesting combo amp, Darin. I wonder who carries them in southern California? With a 40 pound luggage limit that could actually be carried to gigs abroad. With the onboard digital reverb, compression and subsonic filter I bet it rejects feedback and plays very clean. It even has phantom power for a condenser microphone. I've gotta' try one! Ric
Here's the manual:
http://www.aer-amps.de/pdf/ENGLISH/Manual%20UK%202004/APH_MAN_UK_0310.pdf |
It's easier to ask for forgiveness, than permission! |
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Admin
Pupule
USA
4551 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2008 : 07:53:03 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Haole_Boy
My last time out was horrendous. On stage the monitors were loud and howling with low freq feedback--it was very hard to keep going and not just quit--and I later found out that the PA volume was very weak and no one could hear it beyond 30 feet.
You can bet I made a solumn vow to myself after that one!
That is no fun. I played a college gig where they were very formal and required a contract. So I wrote in on the contract that a specific PA must be provided by the University as described to me by their AV staff. When I arrived, they said, "Oh, instead of the PA, we decided it'd be better to amplify you through the room speakers." Um, that is really made for announcements, not acoustic guitar. Now, I carry my own rig in the trunk of my car, just in case. Live and learn.
I am glad that Darin chimed in. He is the expert. I just let him try everything and then try to follow what he does (when I am willing to spend the $.) That guy has very good taste.
The AER is great. Cannot beat the sound quality to weight. It is expensive but I found a lightly used one. Paid for itself after a few gigs and now an essential tool.
Try what you have. The more you use it, the more comfortable you get. THAT results in better playing and performing. Regardless of hi-tech, lo-tech, big $$$, or little $$$, that is what we are going after.
I use the AER for all my solo gigs. I use a Fender Passport PD-250 portable PA when I need more inputs. When provided, I will use a provided PA, but you need to do the legwork ahead of time to find out exactly what will be provided. Specifically, what mixing board, what type of speakers, inputs, etc. Get as much detail as possible. I love it because it is a lot less gear to carry but from experience be prepared for surprises.
I always have my LR Baggs PADI. I got a TC Electronic G-Natural for Christmas last year. Santa (read my wife) was very generous. She got tired of hearing me talk about it and spending all the time online reading about it. My guitar has the old style Fishman barndoor onboard electronics. Always striving for a better live sound... I guess it's an addiction. |
Andy |
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Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2008 : 11:31:00 AM
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quote:
If there are other guys on stage then they start increasing their volume, so it then turns into a battle on stage and the sound gets loud and muddy. They all blame the sound guy.
Amen to that. I shudder when I see a bunch of acoustic musicians on stage, each with an amp.
Since this has turned into a "worst live sound" bull session -- for which I take no small amount of responsibility -- how about we turn it around and talk about how to work with the sound man/woman/droid to get the best sound on stage?
Petter made some very good points-- chief among them "don't be an asshole."
Here's how I handle a club, concert or festival situation:
It is all about communication.
I always make a point of talking to the sound operator in advance-- even if there was a tech rider. I introduce myself, talk about my instruments and what they sound like, and mention how I like to be mic'ed: two mics (vox & instrument) on booms coming in from my right side.
I bring my own DI & a guitar chord with a switch it so I can swap it between guitar & uke-- or let the operator supply a second DI for the uke. I tell the operator to use his/her ears to decide if the DI'ed sound should go into the house mix. Generally it does, but only to fill things out (my DI has a an incredible bass boost--- nice for the guitar.) But, like Peter, I'd rather let the audience hear what my guitar sounds like with a decent mic.
I do not get picky about mics-- if the operator does not set up a mic that I feel is appropriate, that tells me volumes about how to deal with the rest of the sound check and concert, doesn't it? I may ask for another mic if I see one handy, or I may suggest we go with my DI by itself and let it go at that.
No matter what I keep the tone light and I let the operator know I respect his/her judgment as far as the room and equipment goes. Even if I don't, no sense in annoying someone who can make me sound bad.
Ditto for effects-- I let the operator handle that after discussing what I like and why. In most cases they have something in the rack that is a lot better than my foot pedal. Also, an effect that sounds great through an amp can sound too wet or too wide through the mains.
At the sound check I make sure to check each instrument, and I play at different intensities for the operator to know how to deal with things. Ditto singing.
I make sure the monitors are just loud enough to hear what I am doing--- and to mask the sound of the mains, which can throw me off (they always sound wrong when you are behind them.)
What I don't do at the sound check is play my entire set-- or even any single song all the way through. The purpose of the sound check is to set the sound-- I can rehearse on my own time. I certainly do not want to waste the operator's time.
I also make sure the operator and I can see each other so I can give signals like "I'm going to unplug my uke." or "take the vocal down in the monitor, please" , and I may even rehearse a couple hand signals so we are on the same page. If I think it is warranted I'll talk a little about my set.
I also make sure to thank the operator after the sound check. Then I know I have someone on my side when I walk onto the stage.
Guess what? In 99% of the gigs I play, the sound is pretty dang good.
A little communication goes a long way.
I know I left off some tips... anybody else? |
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Retro
Ahonui
USA
2368 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2008 : 12:40:03 PM
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Best acoustic sound man I ever knew was one who, early in the sound check, turned off all the p.a. gear, walked to the edge of the stage and asked the musician to just play unamplified for a few minutes. He told me it was so he would know what that specific instrument really sounded like in that particular performer's hands - and that his job was to get exactly that sound to be heard throughout the hall.
(That engineer is still the best acoustic mix engineer working in Seattle, afaic.) |
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