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Allen M Cary
Lokahi
USA
158 Posts |
 Posted - 09/23/2008 : 12:49:04 PM
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I am a real rookie at this, but I have an experience that wasn't so good and would like advice from this august group. I have a small Crate amp that has worked well for me in small rooms, but last weekend I did an outdoor gig--sort of quiet background acoustic slack key for a garden wine tasting event. I was set up in an alcove/gallery off the main tasting area, and had a lot of trouble getting any volume without feeding back at certain frequencies. I am wondering:
Is the Crate simply inappropriate for this type of venue?
Do I need other bits to go together with it?
Should I s**tcan the Crate and get something else (e.g., the AER)?
Does anyone have experience with the new Fishman Portable or the Bose L series?
I don't do a lot of these gigs so I don't want to spend an arm and a leg,(couldn't play with only one arm) but I did enjoy doing it and would like to do more of them and be a little more "professional"
thanks for any help,
Mahalo,
Allen |
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RWD
`Olu`olu
USA
850 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2008 : 1:07:31 PM
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| What kind of pickup were you using or was it a mic? |
Bob |
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wcerto
Ahonui
USA
5052 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2008 : 1:08:15 PM
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| Where is Lawrence? He is the sound guy extraordinaire. Ask George Kahumoku. |
Me ke aloha
Malama pono,
Wanda |
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Allen M Cary
Lokahi
USA
158 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2008 : 1:25:28 PM
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I guess I should add a bit more information. I was using a Taylor 614 with undersaddle piezo (factory installed) and a nylon string with a Highlander undersaddle pick up and running them directly into the Crate, channel 2 with the tone controls.
Allen |
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cpatch
Ahonui
USA
2187 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2008 : 1:30:36 PM
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| I sound best on stage when I don't plug into anything and remove the strings from my guitar. But that's just me. |
Craig
My goal is to be able to play as well as people think I can. |
Edited by - cpatch on 09/23/2008 1:31:56 PM |
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ricdoug
`Olu`olu
USA
513 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2008 : 1:54:43 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Allen M Cary
I have a small Crate amp that has worked well for me in small rooms, but last weekend I did an outdoor gig
Sounds like the amp was clipping, Allen. Feedback occurs, then. You also might try plugging the soundhole. What model Crate were you using? Outdoors, with no reflective backdrops and walls requires more power and positioning to raise the level above the ambient noise. Ric |
It's easier to ask for forgiveness, than permission! |
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Lawrence
Ha`aha`a
USA
1597 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2008 : 1:58:14 PM
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Allen,
quote:
Is the Crate simply inappropriate for this type of venue?
No - it should be fine (unless it is a tiny Crate and really does not have enough power - as already mentioned). Most amps and pickups have some "peakiness (strong response at certain frequencies)", which will make feedback more likely, but the items you list are not especially known for these problems. quote:
Do I need other bits to go together with it?
If you do have excessive peakiness (such as the well-known piezo "quack" that comes from undersaddle pickups) then you can moderate it some with an equalizer that has notch filters (like the Baggs Para Acoustic Direct Interface Box PADI).
quote:
Should I s**tcan the Crate and get something else (e.g., the AER)?
The AER is better, but the differences, relative to your feedback problem, are not extreme.
quote:
Does anyone have experience with the new Fishman Portable or the Bose L series?
Yes- The Bose are a little less susceptible to feedback not definitely NOT immune to feedback (in spite of what Bose says) and the feedback generally occurs at an earsplitting frequency of around 6-8 Kilohertz. Personally I would not buy anything from Bose... EVER (and I have lots of good engineering reasons for this statement but they would fill a book and most folks on this forum would not understand them). The only company worse than Bose is Monster (for even more reasons).
Usually outside venues have the LEAST feedback problems (the sound does not bounce back toward you). However, if you are near a wall or other sound reflecting surface you can have the same problems as in a room.
Things to remember:
1) Put the speaker (amplifier) as far away from your instrument as you reasonably can, and place it in front of you pointed toward the audience (not you). Remember, what you hear your guitar also "hears". Same goes for the vocal mike and speaker distance. If you are using the amp/speaker as a monitor as well as providing the main sound, then this distance is a compromise but you should always favor getting a better sound to the audience as opposed to yourself. (After all you are supposed to be so professional that you can play deaf like Beethoven).
2) Make sure your system (amp and Guitar pickups) do not have strong peak frequencies. Equalize these peaks away as much as possible with "notch" filters or get a different pickup. Undersaddle pickups are usually not very prone to feedback, however Nylon string guitars are generally more subject to feedback (since they are naturally quieter).
3) Stay away from things that reflect sound (like walls) as much as possible.
Other that those things, I would pretty much have to see and hear your setup to give any more help.
P.S. - Thanks for the compliment Wanda.
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Mahope Kākou...
...El Lorenzo de Ondas Sonoras |
Edited by - Lawrence on 09/24/2008 08:30:44 AM |
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Trev
Lokahi
United Kingdom
265 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2008 : 01:11:36 AM
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Again, a lot of interesting stuff on this. Thanks everyone, for your different perspectives.
All due respect to Lawrence's knowledge, but for me personally,I find the Bose units absulutely superb.I have used the Bose units a few times, in quite a few different situations, and I believe that for me, they are the best sound I've had, for 'acoustic' music. There are times when they're not the best solution - they're not so good for the sort of 'alcove' gig that you mention, and for anywhere with raked seating, or a very high stage, they wouldn't work. And if you're not gigging very often they are very expensive. But for most gigs (in the small/medium venues that I play) - exceptionally good, I've found. I don't have any engineering defence for this and don't have a bookful of reasons, but from an everyday practical point of view, here are the reasons I like them.
1) No need for a PA- for small to medium gigs, they're all I need. This means a very quick sound check.
2) No need for monitors - you put them behind you and hear the same sound as the audience.
3) Very high quality sound - I've never experienced a better on-stage sound. The first time I experienced them I was in a 6 piece band going through 4 Bose units. I was initially highly sceptical, as I'd never seen anything like it before. However this lasted about 10 seconds into our first song. We'd never sounded so good.
4) You control the mix yourself through a small unit that can fit on your mic stand.
Now this won't suit everyone - I've come across performers (especially older ones) who are not comfortable twiddling the knobs themselves - they want to play music, not learn how to operate electronic gear. Also, people who nead reading glasses don't want to necessarily wear them on stage, so operating the mixer, and peering at LCD screens is a nuisance. Also, while smaller than a PA, it's bulkier than an acoustic amp (and much more expensive). And no, they're certainly not immune to feedback, (but then again neither are other amps/PAs.) Personally, given the choice, (and the money) I'd use one pretty much all the time, but they're not for everyone.
It's different for everyone - you have to weigh up what is available, what your specific requirements are, how much money you can spend etc. |
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Lawrence
Ha`aha`a
USA
1597 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2008 : 07:36:08 AM
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Sorry if this seems like a Rant (and it IS one  ). There are just a few audio companies that I would rant about and Bose happens to be one of them.
The design Concept that Bose is using for the L1 system (wide horizontal dispersion with narrow vertical dispersion) is not new and has been tried before (back in the fifties to seventies) for stage amplification. These systems were not very popular at the time and went out of production, but there is nothing wrong with this concept. I might add that the new professional PA array systems from JBL and others are heading back in this direction, except that with these new arrays the sound designer can choose wide or narrow dispersion by re-arranging the array. Many modern venues (like Villa Montalvo and Shoreline here) are equipped with these array systems and they work quite well. The JBL Pro Sound division will give you real specs on their systems that are mostly accurate and truthful.
I will not buy anything from Bose because they over-hype and flat-out lie about quality and performance on ALL of their products. Of course lots of companies give "optimistic" reviews of their own products and will stretch a few facts, but I will not buy from companies that blatantly lie and cheat their customers.
I have performed in front of L1's and have experienced them on several occasions and I am not particularly impressed. Their frequency response is anything but flat but certain instruments (like voice and acoustic guitar) sound good through them and some folks do seem to like them. They claim 170 degree horizontal dispersion but the dispersion at middle frequencies is more like 150 degrees and at high frequencies becomes very narrow at about 30 degrees (no surprise... they use cheap lousy drivers - a Bose standard approach). Folks should avoid placing them directly behind the microphone for this reason. Their electronic design is atrocious (they did not even have a recording output, but maybe the version II units do have this). And the feedback, which I have heard many times, was extremely painful. The units I used belong to a friend who bought them used from a musician who gave him a very good price (in retrospect it seems this musician, too, had decided that they were not his "cup-of-tea").
Here is a SMALL part of that book I was talking about, which is an simple engineering analysis of their "acoustamass" system.
http://intellexual.net/bose.html
They have been selling bad products since they first started in business, so even if the L1's were "Kind-of-OK" (meaning they made a "mistake" and accidentally made a good product) I would not buy them.
This is of course, my own personal opinion, but it is backed by many other electronic engineers and several Civil Court Rulings.
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Mahope Kākou...
...El Lorenzo de Ondas Sonoras |
Edited by - Lawrence on 09/24/2008 11:20:27 AM |
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RWD
`Olu`olu
USA
850 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2008 : 2:27:54 PM
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I can recall so many times that I had wished to have had more money so I could buy something "really good" from Bose. It's been just pure luck and circumstances that I have never bought anything them.
After reading that link I am feeling like a very lucky person!
Thanks for that important information.
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Bob |
Edited by - RWD on 09/24/2008 2:28:52 PM |
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Darin
Lokahi
USA
294 Posts |
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Reid
Ha`aha`a
Andorra
1526 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2008 : 02:05:16 AM
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Bob, is that guitar you are playing the one built by Hank Mauel?
...Reid |
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RWD
`Olu`olu
USA
850 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2008 : 02:58:17 AM
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Darin: Thanks so much for the nice words and posting my link. You can bet I never expected that to happen! Sometimes I get lucky recording, lets say it's on take #58, then feeling good about it I post the song...and then I hope no one calls me out on it. LOL!
Reid: Yes, that is the Mauel.
Has it been two years already? That was (is) my first good guitar and I thank you for taking the time to help me find it. |
Bob |
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Reid
Ha`aha`a
Andorra
1526 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2008 : 07:05:37 AM
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Bob, you make it sound as good as it looks. Good goin'.
...Reid |
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Leonard
Lokahi
USA
124 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2008 : 05:03:30 AM
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| I've been following this thread with great interest. A question occurs to me, because I've used so little amplification: How do you know where to set your notch filter on the Baggs PADI to eliminate quackiness? Thanks in advance to the technically minded. LRR |
Be the change that you wish to see in the world. M. Gandhi |
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