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sm80808
Lokahi
347 Posts |
 Posted - 02/12/2009 : 12:25:13 PM
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All these Grammy related threads have me wondering what the rest of you think.
What does it mean to you for someone to be considered a "Hawaiian Musician" or play "Hawaiian Music"?
Is it a style?
Is it the notes you play?
Is it how you phrase them?
Is it where you grew up?
Is it what you learned from your family?
Is it about lineage?
Is it about who your Mom, Dad, Uncles, Aunties, etc. are/were?
Is it about who you learn from?
Is it about how you learn?
Is it about ethnicity?
Does it mean you can't play other kinds of music too?
What is really important to you?
Just curious what you all feel at this moment in time, if you care to share.
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slackkey808
Akahai
USA
50 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2009 : 11:17:31 PM
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| To be a "Hawaiian Musician" and to play "Hawaiian Music" are two different things. Anybody can play Hawaiian music if they wanted to. I could bust out some blues riff, but that wouldn't make me a "Blues Musician." To be a Hawaiian musician, I think, is to know some history behind the songs you play and really feel some kind of connection to it (which I think is true in many genres of music). I don't think you can just record a bunch of Hawaiian songs onto a CD and you're automatically a Hawaiian musician, unless you know what those songs are about (and that's just starters). Knowing the language helps too (sadly although I went to Kamehameha, I don't speak Hawaiian, but if I find a new song I like, with words, then I look it up on the internet to find out what it means both literally and if possible metaphorically). One song I found particularly sad was "Ka Ipo Lei Manu." To think that someone would write you a love song for your return from somewhere faraway, only to find out months later that you had died. That makes the song have even more mana to it (plus it was written by Queen Kapi'olani for King Kalakaua) Royalty! Anyway the Hawaiian musician thing, I think what's getting some people upset about Tia is that she was awarded for something she hadn't really worked that long on (in comparison to artists like Amy). Of course the award was for best Hawaiian album or something and not best Hawaiian ARTIST, so what can we do... |
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slackkey808
Akahai
USA
50 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2009 : 11:26:23 PM
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Also more directly related to your questions,
Style - well I guess, you can't play rock and call it Hawaiian or vice versa
Notes - no
Phrases - helps but no
Where you grew up - no
Family/lineage - again helps, but no I don't think Danny Carvalho comes from a "musical Hawaiian family" and yet he's a slack key genius
Teachers - helps, it keeps some of the older styles alive (like from Uncle Sonny to Uncle Ozzie, and from Uncle Ozzie to however many people he teaches)
Learning - I learn by watching and listening which is the "traditional" Hawaiian way of learning. However, some people just can't do that so it doesn't hurt to use tabs. In fact I CAN'T use tabs, their just so confusing, I like it better when I get the "just put your finger here and pluck that string."
Ethnicity - NOOOO! I don't think Peter Moon was Hawaiian (not sure though), but look at him, he helped with Hawaiian music renaissance.
Can't play other styles - I think Sonny Chillingworth and even Leonard Kwan really liked jazz and incorporated some into their styles, but they still "promoted" Hawaiian music.
What's important to me is that you have some kind of understanding of what you're playing (not technical cuz I fail in that already) but just the spirit of the song I guess. And two, just have fun :)
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slackkey808
Akahai
USA
50 Posts |
Posted - 02/13/2009 : 12:30:57 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by sirduke58
Brah anoddah ting it takes to be a Hawaiian Music musician is a strong love fo' da music because you ain't making a decent living off of it.Even if you have CDS out you'll still need a day job unless you don't mind going hungry & homeless.Oz once told me the best advice that Gabby gave him was "Boy no make slack key your life, make'um one hobby & get one real job" So that's what he did & never regretted the decision.Zack,Peter Jr you guys lissening?
Malama Pono
 Braddah Duke
Hey Uncle Duke no worry beef curry I'm in Calculus remember? Now if only I could figure out what to do with it... |
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Auntie Maria
Ha`aha`a
USA
1918 Posts |
Posted - 02/13/2009 : 05:07:34 AM
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quoting:
What does it mean to you for someone to be considered a "Hawaiian Musician" or play "Hawaiian Music"?
As stated in an earlier reply, anyone can claim to play Hawaiian music.
But to be a "Hawaiian musician", one must have Hawaiian blood.
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Auntie Maria
===================
My "Aloha Kaua`i" radio show streams FREE online every Thu & Fri 7-9am (HST)
www.kkcr.org - Kaua`i Community Radio
"Like" Aloha Kauai on Facebook, for playlists and news/info about island music and musicians!
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sm80808
Lokahi
347 Posts |
Posted - 02/13/2009 : 11:45:01 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by sirduke58
Hey Braddah Shawn
Hacome noboddeh like respond to your query?Aaaaaah powah ting I go chrai.......
hehe, thanks Duke.. Actually, I never really expected that many people would respond.
For me, it would be nice if music and musicians were so easy to categorize. On second thought, maybe not.
Hawaiian music definitely has a sound, due to the notes played phrasing... but what defines that sound varies with the listener.
I don't think where you are from, your last name, etc. are important either. They can be useful for marketing purposes, but being related to so and so, or taking lessons from so and so does not make someone a good musician. Only hard work and a genuine love for what you do can do that.
After thinking about it, the only thing that is important to me in regards to music is if I feel anything when I listen to it.
Oh well, that's my opinion for now. And like Aunty Lanet said in the other thread . . .
It seems like the main beef people have in these "is it really Hawaiian?" threads here on TP is if people feel that someone is using "Hawaiian" or "Slack Key" as marketing language to promote a product.
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RWD
`Olu`olu
USA
850 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2009 : 04:00:50 AM
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I have to throw political correctness under the bus on this one.
I discovered this after thinking about how to respond to this thread...
All of the slack key CD's I own and listen to (that are not compilations) are from local Hawaiian residents and none of them are white.
1)Being from Hawaii is a big part of how music comes off as being Hawaiian. If you know the lifestyle and philosophy of the culture it is a great advantage--maybe even necessary.
2)Race does make a difference in cultural music. If you went to an authentic Mexican restaurant and saw four white guys with Irish accents playing Mariachi would you cop an attitude? I would.
Really now, when it comes to slack key think about who you look up to. Who are your icons?
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Bob |
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Russell Letson
`Olu`olu
USA
504 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2009 : 07:54:53 AM
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I don't know about political correctness, but "race" is one of those notions that says at least as much about the speaker as about what's being spoken about. Insofar as a person's appearance governs the degree to which he will be accepted as part of a culture, the perception of "race" can affect the production of, say, music. But what "race" is Peter Moon? If "race" means "genetic background," then he's Korean (or Korean-Chinese, depending on which source you look at). Does that make Peter Moon less culturally "Hawaiian" than, say, someone with one genetically-Hawaiian parent who has been raised in an urban setting, speaking only English and listening to mainstream/mainland pop music? How "Hawaiian" would this imaginary person's music be compared to that of, say, midwest-born, ethnically-Norwegian Keith Haugen?
Hawai`i has become a famously multi-ethnic society (just as slack key is a multi-ethnic musical form), and I'm not sure that any player I've encountered in more than a decade of interviews and research is genetically pure Hawaiian (and, after complexion and facial appearance, genetics is what "race" generally points to). Most of the ones I think of as significantly representative of the slack key tradition, however, have lived "inside" the *cultural* life of the music, no matter what their genes or faces said about their ethnic parentage. It's my ears that tell me what sounds close to the center of the tradition, not my eyes. (Of course, if I were dealing with hula it would be a different matter--but it wouldn't be faces I was looking at.)
The focus on ethnicity of the genetic kind is more than tricky--it's a distraction. The "four white guys with Irish accents playing Mariachi" situation isn't about "race," it's about *culture* and cultural competence. (And maybe about who owns the restaurant.) We can wonder just how much a player needs to absorb the non-musical aspects of a culture in order to produce convincing music, but skin and hair color and the shape of nose and eyes only matters if we let it. Sharpness of ear and eye and openness of heart seem to me to be the crucial factors.
All this seems painfully obvious to me, but the R-word sets off so many alarms that it's worth the risk of seeming to offer egg-sucking lessons to lay out the distinctions. (The recent election has raised also some questions about just what it means to belong to an ethnic or cultural group, so it's not just our corner of the world that's thinking about these matters.)
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Edited by - Russell Letson on 02/16/2009 6:56:46 PM |
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PearlCityBoy
Lokahi
USA
432 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2009 : 08:17:41 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Haole_Boy
Really now, when it comes to slack key think about who you look up to. Who are your icons?
Some non-Hawaiians on the list whom I look up to are:
- Ozzie Kotani: One of the biggest influences on my education and style and an instructor at the Kahumoku Maui workshop.
- Peter Moon: Never met him, but what an inspiration.
- Ron Loo: Not sure if he's pure Pake or has any Hawaiian blood, but he was my first slack key teacher when he taught adult-ed at Kamehameha Schools.
- Cindy Combs: More contemporary slack key. I like many of her interpretations and techniques. I love the original Olomana's version of her song "So Free."
- Bob Brozman: Yup, haole guy originally from the island (Long Island  ])and now in Santa Cruz, steel guitar extraodinaire, but also can play slack key, ukulele, as well as many other genres and instruments. Very helpful in breaking down slack key/guitar/music techniques. Provides an outsider/broader world perspective and philosophy. Also an instructor at the Kahumoku workshops. You should see Brozman and Led with a couple of beers pushing each other musically to unworldly places under the plumeria tree in Napili.
Aloha,
Doug |
Edited by - PearlCityBoy on 02/14/2009 9:14:56 PM |
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RWD
`Olu`olu
USA
850 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2009 : 1:09:50 PM
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Just a few things.
In the list of sm80808 the only real exception was Bob Brozman. Everyone else lives in Hawaii,including the great Sonny Chillingworth, or else is brown. Note that I did not specifically single out Hawaiians as the race even though some jumped to that conclusion. I do not have a problem with brown--my sis in Hawaii is hapa. Just pointing out the obvious!
This is what I think is obvious:
All (pretty sure anyway) slack key "masters" have had considerable time living in Hawaii and most are brown. I don't see this as a problem, I see it as correct for the survival of Hawaiian music.
No need to back me up if you agree.
Also, too much baggage on my use of the word "race" I think, Russell. To be sure, I am not a word-smith.
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Bob |
Edited by - RWD on 02/14/2009 1:12:29 PM |
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PearlCityBoy
Lokahi
USA
432 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2009 : 8:57:20 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Haole_Boy
Just a few things.
In the list of sm80808 the only real exception was Bob Brozman. Everyone else lives in Hawaii,including the great Sonny Chillingworth, or else is brown. Note that I did not specifically single out Hawaiians as the race even though some jumped to that conclusion.
Haole Boy, I thought you meant Hawaiian race. To me, as a local boy (now living in CA but with strong ties to HI) and part Hawaiian, "local Hawaiian resident" (Hawaiian blood living in Hawaii) is different than "local Hawaii resident" (someone living in Hawaii, regardless of race; is this what you intended?), especially when you talk about race in the next paragraph.
Also, not sure what you meant about Sonny Chillingworth. He passed away years ago, was part Hawaiian, and lived in my hometown of Pearl City. |
Edited by - PearlCityBoy on 02/14/2009 9:05:30 PM |
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Hula Rider
Lokahi
USA
215 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2009 : 10:49:36 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Russell Letson
I don't know about political correctness, but "race" is one of those notions that says at least as much about the speaker as about what's being spoken about. Insofar as a person's appearance governs the degree to which he will be accepted as part of a culture, the perception of "race" can affect the production of, say, music.
Aloha e Russell -
Your post addresses one of the major reasons my daughter left Hawai`i - perceptions of race. She is a beautiful red-head of very fair complexion. As a (quite good - she was my lead dancer) hula dancer, after shows, she was constantly told by audience members, "why are you doing HULA? You should be in RIVER DANCE!" RARELY did she get complimented on the actual skill of her hula, and then usually only by other hula dancers.
Well, ethnically, being descended from me, my daughter has as much Irish blood quantum as she has Hawaiian. But she gets her fair skin and her red hair from her father's side - she is 50% PORTUGUESE! So, by the logic of those who questioned her "right" to dance hula, though she has never even seen Portugal or had an interest in it, she should confine her dance to vira, chula, corridinho, tirana and fandango.
But on my side she is descended from generations of hula dancers. My St. Louis-born grandmother learned from our own Yuen family of Hanapepe and Hilo, and from Helen Desha Beamer; my mother learned from my grandmother and Louise Beamer; and I learned hula from my grandmother, grandfather (Hawaiian/Chinese), various aunties and uncles, most notably my Aunty Hazel Carter Yuen, from Kumu Hula Tis`a Kalili (Haumana to both Uncle George Na`ope and `Iolani Luahini), and I was privilaged to be mentored in Hawai`iana by Aunty Nona.
My daughter knows every word of every song she dances. She can translate her songs herself. She can choreograph. She can compose. Once she was big enough to do so, she made her own hula costumes, including a kahiko costume of kapa she made herself. She made her own hula implements: ipu hula, ipu heke, ka la`au, ka`eke`eke, pu`ili, ancient and modern `uli`uli. She made the cases, and she made her own lauhala basket to carry it all in. She was given her lau hala mat to dance on, and repaired it herself as needed.
She quit performing because after EVERY show, she had to put up with, "How come a HAOLE is dancing HULA?"
She is very happy on the Mainland where she is accepted in both the Spanish and Anglo communities as the loving, kind human she is. But she no longer dances hula.
I am happy she has found a place that accepts her. But it breaks my heart that she could not find acceptance in the culture in which she was reared and trained, in the islands that gave birth to her.
As far as I am concerned, if a person has "heart," that is what is needed.
Malama pono,
Leilehua
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Edited by - Hula Rider on 02/15/2009 11:12:43 PM |
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Hula Rider
Lokahi
USA
215 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2009 : 11:33:34 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by sm80808
All these Grammy related threads have me wondering what the rest of you think.
What does it mean to you for someone to be considered a "Hawaiian Musician" or play "Hawaiian Music"?
My own views, your milage may vary.
Is it a style?
The term "Hawaiian Music" is inclusive of a number of styles often characterized by a distinctive bass rhythm which is descended from the ancient ipu and pahu rhythms. Hawaiian music has a 2,000 year heritage. It would be surprising for any genre with such a long heritage to not have a diversity of styles.
Is it the notes you play?
Only when I can reach them!
Is it how you phrase them?
Phrasing is certainly part of how the Hawaiian "feel" is achieved.
Is it where you grew up?
I suspect it is more "How" than "Where."
Is it what you learned from your family?
In many cases, yes.
Is it about lineage?
I would say lineage can establish credibility, though I would not discount the possibility of a prodigy or savant.
Is it about who your Mom, Dad, Uncles, Aunties, etc. are/were?
Only if you actually spent time learning from them.
Is it about who you learn from?
I suspect that would be true for many. Some people are better at passing on the heritage than others.
Is it about how you learn?
I suspect that plays a part
Is it about ethnicity?
To some degree, I believe it is. I have taught hula to many people from around the world. Certain bone and muscle structure proportions are more easily able to master hula moves than others. These proportions are more common in some ethnic groups than in others. I suspect that certain proportions of hands are probably more adept at playing certain progressions than others. And vocal quality is hugely influenced by the mechanical structures that created the voice.
That said, in my experience, a person who has a great will to learn, study, and practice has a greater chance of developing into a competant hula dancer than has a person with ideal build who does not apply his or her self. Presumably, that would apply to playing guitar and singing, as well.
Does it mean you can't play other kinds of music too?
For me, it takes me so long to master any given thing, that I have had to focus and give up rock, Latin, and other forms of music and dance because there simply are not enough hours in a day to study all I would wish.
What is really important to you?
Hawai`i-ana, Hawaiian cultural preservation and perpetuation, are my life's work.
Malama pono,
Leilehua |
Edited by - Hula Rider on 02/16/2009 01:32:46 AM |
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Retro
Ahonui
USA
2368 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2009 : 2:39:22 PM
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| Thank you, Leilehua, for your contributions to the discussion. They resonate, believe me. |
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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2009 : 3:46:49 PM
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Ignorance and intolerance, from any source, must be actively fought. Our world has seen too many examples of what happens when ignorance and intolerance are allowed to go unchecked.
One person giving up what makes his or her heart come alive because of others' opinions should not be tolerated. |
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guitarded
Ha`aha`a
USA
1799 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2009 : 5:28:32 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Hula Rider
Aloha e Russell -
Your post addresses one of the major reasons my daughter left Hawai`i - perceptions of race. She is a beautiful red-head of very fair complexion. As a (quite good - she was my lead dancer) hula dancer, after shows, she was constantly told by audience members, "why are you doing HULA? You should be in RIVER DANCE!" RARELY did she get complimented on the actual skill of her hula, and then usually only by other hula dancers.
[...]
My daughter knows every word of every song she dances. She can translate her songs herself. She can choreograph. She can compose. Once she was big enough to do so, she made her own hula costumes, including a kahiko costume of kapa she made herself. She made her own hula implements: ipu hula, ipu heke, ka la`au, ka`eke`eke, pu`ili, ancient and modern `uli`uli. She made the cases, and she made her own lauhala basket to carry it all in. She was given her lau hala mat to dance on, and repaired it herself as needed.
She quit performing because after EVERY show, she had to put up with, "How come a HAOLE is dancing HULA?"
[...]
But she no longer dances hula.
[...]
As far as I am concerned, if a person has "heart," that is what is needed.
Aloha, Auntie. It really saddens me to read your post, and it's regrettable that those comments from people truly ignorant of what they were fortunate enough to witness ended up having that effect on your daughter's decision to quit performing hula.
I've personally witnessed this very same kind of thing here on the mainland where I play music for a hula halau. At this one particular performance, a small group of people in the audience heckled and even sometimes loudly laughed at our non-Hawaiian-looking dancers who had practiced so hard to put on this performance which happened to be at a church, no less. But guess what. Those hecklers in the audience were not haole. They were actually some displaced Hawaiian wahines who had for unknown reasons decided to grace our performance with their presence that night. The girls were crushed and in tears. I was enraged, but I had to set aside my rage in order to try and salvage whatever self-esteem our girls had left as I took them backstage to tell them how I as a person born and raised in Hawaii felt so ashamed and embarrassed for what they were forced to witness, and to not let a few ignorant, arrogant and apparently extremely insecure Hawaiian wahines change the fact that they actually did a great job in seeing their performance through to the end IN SPITE of those bozos in the audience. I think I used a B-word other than "bozos", but you get the idea.
Now here's a story in contrast that goes back to the mid to late 90s at an eatery called Shipley's Ale House that used to be located in the Manoa Market Place above UH Manoa. The house band that night was the Native Hawaiian Band, which IIRC, consisted of Dennis and David Kamakahi, Mike Kaawa, Ocean Kaowili, and Bobby Ingano. As usual, the music was awesome, but what occurred that night started very innocently and caught the entire mostly local crowd totally off guard. There was a table that was occupied by a quiet group of haole-looking people. I had assumed they were tourists who appeared to be there celebrating the birthday of a young early 20-ish looking blond haole girl wearing several beautiful flower lei. I don't remember the name of the song the band played next, but whichever one it was, that young tourist-looking haole girl immediately got up from her chair, and with a very big no-shame smile on her face, started to dance hula -- mean hula -- you could tell she had been dancing for years kine hula. Talk about a major chicken skin moment! Everyone started poking at the others to watch what the haole girl was doing. Her smiling face was aglow with the pride that had been instilled in her from her kumuhulas past and present. Needless to say, she brought the house down with a standing ovation and there were lots of tear-filled eyes in the audience, including my own.
Auntie, I feel so sad that your daughter couldn't have had a similar experience that might have made her change her mind. Maybe sometime down the road? Can only hope, yeah?
Aloha,
braddah ed |
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