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noeau
Ha`aha`a
USA
1105 Posts |
 Posted - 04/08/2009 : 10:02:11 AM
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I was just perusing this thread and thought that it was so interesting to me that it warrants further comment.
All the postings have brought up things I just think could be discussed.
For example, the phrase to name the pork bun introduced by the Chinese. Char siu bow is the Cantonese name. In Seattle it is commonly called Ham bow. I donʻt know if this is a collective name for anything stuffed into bread or if it is just the pork bun. I know I have said char siu bow and got extra ones for free because the lady who sold them appreciated my respect for the language.
I learned that manapua is a corruption of mea ʻono puaʻa literally pork cake. Lazy tongues changed it to manapua.
I really appreciated Keolaʻs input on tat other thread. I just wanted to say that when I was learning at Mānoa we pored over old newspaper articles looking for examples of idioms and phrases that would be useful in conversation as well as writing. Well, needless to say I started to unconsciously memorize some of the more common elements found in articles related to sentence structure and the like.
When I used some of them conversationally I sounded like I memorized lines from a play or something. In other words there was no spontaneity in my speaking.
Looking back I understood what it was. Imagine if one were to speak in sentences as written in books and news articles all the time. Compare that style of speaking with spoken language as used in the home or on the street. One would sound weird indeed. That was some of the problems I encountered in my studies. So then I would ask manaleo how they would say something and I posed the question in English instead of Hawaiian. So again there was some type of disconnect that occurred. Because of differences in outlook and worldview questions posed in English often could not be answered in Hawaiian with ease.
Keloaʻs statement about keeping our language use in the realm of the Hawaiian thought and psyche as I see it is spot on. That is the most exasperating situation to attempt to practice. For me it is because of being reared in Western schools and society that makes it difficult for me to become totally immersed in Hawaiian language. Outlook and perception of the world as a pre-contact Hawaiian is very difficult to practice. And then there is post-contact Hawaiian thought too. Kepelino and Malo have written excellent texts on Hawaiian culture yet there is a certain kind of Western/Christian judgementalism found in their writings that make it difficult for me to digest. So the idea that modern Hawaiian words being coined today make perfect sense to me. Laiana Wong Had children in immersion school and he became interested in tracking how the language might change as his children and their cohort became proficient in the spoken word. His findings were very interesting and I believe became a part of is doctoral thesis in linguistics. I suppose by now he has his PHD. I donʻt know Iʻve been out of school for a while now.
Anyway my respect goes out to those who care enough to take the time to attempt to understand the songs they are interested in. My gratitude goes out especially to people like Keola D as he cares enough to share what he has learned with out criticism of those of us who still struggle at times to make sense of our language.
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No'eau, eia au he mea pa'ani wale nō. |
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rendesvous1840
Ha`aha`a
USA
1055 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2009 : 4:06:02 PM
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When overused, the borrowed phrases sound stiff, but sometimes you just hafta say something like: "What we have here is a failure to communicate!"
"That's not a knife. THIS is a knife!"
"That's the most unheard of thing I ever heard of!"
"What, you like beef?"
Paul |
"A master banjo player isn't the person who can pick the most notes.It's the person who can touch the most hearts." Patrick Costello |
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keoladonaghy
Lokahi
257 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2009 : 4:27:10 PM
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Aloha e No'eau, first, mahalo for the kind thoughts. I don't even recall the Puamana thread you are referring to but sounded like a good one.
Yes, Laiana does have his Ph.d. now in Linguistics.
The issue of reflecting Hawaiian thought or not is tough, so it's really hard to be hyper-critical about it in everything except the most blatant cases. In many cases, we really don't know. We can go back as far as we need into the old newspapers and mele and whatnot, but have little certainty about anything. I could point out some blatant things but probably don't need to at this point. Even today, I had one:
I was buying a new battery for my car's key remote. As I was doing the transaction the clerk said asked how many of this kind of battery I needed, I say, "Two of this kind", and in my mind I did a quick translation, "‘Elua o kēia ‘ano iho" which is a straight word for word translation. Then I thought, no, that doesn't sound right, how about "‘Elua iho o kēia ‘ano." That sounded better to my ears, but I really don't know. Did I dismiss the first simply because the word order was exactly the same as English, even thought it was comprehensible? I dunno. But goes to show how @ n @ l I can get sometimes thinking about these kinds of things.
I'm close to wrapping up my Ph.d research and interviews with prominent haku mele and performers. While acknowledging the difference between grammar and vocabulary use in spoken and sung Hawaiian, all acknowledge that these aspects are important, many emphasized the importance of the mele being reflective of a Hawaiian perspective. Even mele that contain western technology, like Kaimuki Hula (He aha nei hana a ke kelepona la…) and Holoholo Ka‘a still place those elements in a Hawaiian conceptual framework. I tried to do the same with Holo Paikikala and while I don't consider it a masterpiece I think from that one aspect I was successful.
The best we can do is to continue to expand our knowledge of traditional language as written, composed in song, spoken and sung, understand some of the differences. There are some cases where right and wrong are as clear as black and white, but an awful lot of grey in between. |
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keoladonaghy
Lokahi
257 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2009 : 4:28:56 PM
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| E Paul, ‘ae, makemake au i ka pipi. ;-) |
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noeau
Ha`aha`a
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2009 : 11:54:57 PM
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E Keola aloha nō. The thread was labeled pua mana or puamana the date was wow wAy back like 3/20/2007. I never realize was that far back too.
E mahalo no kou manaʻo. |
No'eau, eia au he mea pa'ani wale nō. |
Edited by - noeau on 04/10/2009 11:55:56 PM |
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thumbstruck
Ahonui
USA
2165 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2009 : 04:33:08 AM
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| Language is, indeed, a strange earmark for humans. We all have similar feelings. We have family, friends, good experiences and bad experiences. Counting both sides of my family, we lost 2 languages in the last 2 generations. Ready access to jokes, puns and experiences was eclipsed because of language barriers. Garrison Kielor said that here an immigrant man was just a dumb Norksi whereas in his native tongue he was noble and sounded intelligent. Language changes to meet environment. Anglo-Saxon was softened by Keltic, pidginized by Norse, given the "doublespeak" ability by a Norman-French / Latin overlay, added Latin and Greek for science, and expanded by its ability to absorb words from around the globe. Other languages have undergone similar transformantions. There aren't enough words for the human experience. |
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noeau
Ha`aha`a
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2009 : 09:30:31 AM
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| Some experiences have no adequate language to describe them. Right on Kory you da best. |
No'eau, eia au he mea pa'ani wale nō. |
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