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Ambrosius
Lokahi
132 Posts |
 Posted - 02/03/2012 : 2:33:19 PM
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On UkeleleUnderground, there is a beginners section, - place for stupid questions. May I Have a beginners thread? A place for stupid questions?
First of all, this is fun, if I were 40 years younger, you could count me in for the future. As for now, I'm 58 and don't expect anything from me but questions.
Secondly ... the coolest guys, - this is what I love about slack key, - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODhTr096FME&feature=player_embedded
My first question, - the vamp... The wamp in Radio Hula. I bought a book of Mark Hanson because it said it had the sheet for Kaapanas Radio Hula. The better thing in Kaapanas recording is the early vamp.. after the 'triolos' in D7, Kaapana has a vamp from G to D. Hanson does not record that on the sheet. Sir Duke (on YouTube) does an other figure. What exactly does Kaapana do there? Because I feel it is a major part of the characteristics of the tune.
First stupid question.
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Kapila Kane
Ha`aha`a
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2012 : 01:56:52 AM
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And may there be 10,000 more stupid questions!
I certainly have had a few "clunkers"! especially when first starting, but still now and then--probably the players and people who live it roll their eyes.
While we are blessed with many young and/or super-talented pickers here--and you never know who's standing in the back of the room--most of us aren't Superpickers...yet!
Of course, some of us are Super yada yada talkers...almost semi-bloggers when we come here. But most of us chase this for nourishment to the soul, and I would guess our average age to be around 58! If not for the young super-pickers who are in the room, It'd be more like 68, or more!
The 'vamp' (I think) that you speak of is more of a long, Improvisational-like intro, before it kicks into tempo...(IF I'm thinking right, and it is 5 am here, and I am almost 60.)
So IF I actually heard and understand the question...
Intro is long and rubato...(not in time)...
So while the piece is usually performed SIMILAR, It always has elements of improvisation, and Led probably has never played it the same twice.
Led, (and others' so similar playing around in their versions of this), do improvise, do long improvised, rubato sections in the intro (takin' their time--hey, it's Island time) working around with these Hawaiian licks, (many 6ths, or slack key scale intervals--again, don't let this music "psycho-babble" intimidate you we mean well!).
Right hand is playing around with articulation, as left hand climbs up and down playing with various 6ths or other melodic wanderings.
Mark's book is a really good version (from ONE of Led's recordings) and starting point...but familiarity over time will help understand all that we learned and constantly have to re-learn in "Slack Key 101"
You're in the right room, don't drop out.
But you have wandered into the Twilight Zone, and can';t leave!
Like John Sebastion said about music, "I knew I was in it for life."
Slack Key prison, It's a good sentence...fair, compassionate and kind.
try another recording, and it will be similar , but different.
Now what was the question?! |
Edited by - Kapila Kane on 02/04/2012 02:07:10 AM |
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Ambrosius
Lokahi
132 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2012 : 02:43:48 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Kapila Kane
And may there be 10,000 more stupid questions!
I certainly have had a few "clunkers"! especially when first starting, but still now and then--probably the players and people who live it roll their eyes.
While we are blessed with many young and/or super-talented pickers here--and you never know who's standing in the back of the room--most of us aren't Superpickers...yet!
Of course, some of us are Super yada yada talkers...almost semi-bloggers when we come here. But most of us chase this for nourishment to the soul, and I would guess our average age to be around 58! If not for the young super-pickers who are in the room, It'd be more like 68, or more!
The 'vamp' (I think) that you speak of is more of a long, Improvisational-like intro, before it kicks into tempo...(IF I'm thinking right, and it is 5 am here, and I am almost 60.)
So IF I actually heard and understand the question...
Intro is long and rubato...(not in time)...
So while the piece is usually performed SIMILAR, It always has elements of improvisation, and Led probably has never played it the same twice.
Led, (and others' so similar playing around in their versions of this), do improvise, do long improvised, rubato sections in the intro (takin' their time--hey, it's Island time) working around with these Hawaiian licks, (many 6ths, or slack key scale intervals--again, don't let this music "psycho-babble" intimidate you we mean well!).
Right hand is playing around with articulation, as left hand climbs up and down playing with various 6ths or other melodic wanderings.
Mark's book is a really good version (from ONE of Led's recordings) and starting point...but familiarity over time will help understand all that we learned and constantly have to re-learn in "Slack Key 101"
You're in the right room, don't drop out.
But you have wandered into the Twilight Zone, and can';t leave!
Like John Sebastion said about music, "I knew I was in it for life."
Slack Key prison, It's a good sentence...fair, compassionate and kind.
try another recording, and it will be similar , but different.
Now what was the question?!
Wise words and well written. Twilight zone, - yes I'll tell you. But it's both fun and rewarding. I learn more every day. It might be I've not the full grip on the 'vamp' term. In my honey moon, well year actually playing ukulele, I understood a vamp to be a 'descendant' down to the root via II7 - V7 and root. In Taro Patch that should be A7 - D7 and G. Am I off here?
Ozzie Kotani in 'Guitar Playing Hawaiian Style' marks in the tabs a slide from D to G (4th to 5th fret, first string) as a vamp... hmm...
The question? Well, - in 'Radio Hula', I count it to be the 9th measure after 'a tempo' (after the rubato intro). The measure before the bass kicks in the record (CD - Waltz of the Wind). It's even more pronounced in youtube version.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7g9OgTWrTo
Well I just have to keep on listening, - I'll figure it out. |
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Fran Guidry
Ha`aha`a
USA
1579 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2012 : 06:37:34 AM
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The II-V-I vamp on the `ukulele is often played as a V-I vamp in slack key, with maybe a bit of implied II with the use of the flat 5 (C# in G).
I can't be sure we're talking about the same figure, but the vamp in the video is a classic, based on the first position D9 chord. I got something like this:
Does that seem right to you?
Fran |
E ho`okani pila kakou ma Kaleponi
Slack Key Guitar in California - www.kaleponi.com
Slack Key on YouTube
Homebrewed Music Blog |
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Kapila Kane
Ha`aha`a
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2012 : 07:46:21 AM
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vamp terminology is a whole new topic!
but yes, seems guitar turnarounds/or Vamp...I'll call it vamp, are simply V7 to I, like D7 to G (in the key of G).
Meanwhile, the uke players like to do: II 7 to V 7 to I. (think am7-D7-G...where G is I (the one chord in key of G)
Of course, when we allow uke players in, we do it their way, it sounds better when we all play the same....
let someone else "chime" in! (you'll learn that term in Ozzie Kotani book I--highly recommended and required text for course!)
Also will need to wear your hair like all of us.
Ya know, the twilight zone is sometimes no bigger than one topic.
Now for a word from our sponsors...(hey wait, this is taropatch...NO SPONSORS OR POP-UPS!) We love you Andy! |
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Ambrosius
Lokahi
132 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2012 : 10:24:54 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Fran Guidry
The II-V-I vamp on the `ukulele is often played as a V-I vamp in slack key, with maybe a bit of implied II with the use of the flat 5 (C# in G).
I can't be sure we're talking about the same figure, but the vamp in the video is a classic, based on the first position D9 chord. I got something like this:
Does that seem right to you?
Fran
Thanks a lot Fran. I learn every day, and the more I learn the more fun it gets. I realize my roots are in a stricter classical tradition (you play how it is written), - I just have to enjoy a bit freedom, I guess. Learn the main building blocks of the tune, and then add on as it comes. I've learnt that older threads has a well of information, and how one participant 'collects' vamps.
With regard to the phrase I felt was so important for the overall feeling of the tune, - I'm afraid I misled you. After careful counting, it might be the measure before the 9th, the 8th after a-tempo. Sorry. Anyhow, after this 'talk', I feel more easy about it. |
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Ambrosius
Lokahi
132 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2012 : 10:33:44 AM
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quote:
Also will need to wear your hair like all of us.
You fellows are the only friends I got. Hair? Any pictures I can take on to my barber?  |
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thumbstruck
Ahonui
USA
2168 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2012 : 1:05:48 PM
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| The "vamp" is also called "kaholo" in hula, allowing the dancer(s) time to get in position for the next verse. II7-V7-I is common, as is V7-I. Some artist have used a Vdim. The guy who showed me back in '74 said, "Can play any kine as long as it fit. Go try make'm up. Noddah one, noddah one." For 2 weeks all we played was vamps. It's a great way to relax and get to know the fretboard. |
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Retro
Ahonui
USA
2368 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2012 : 2:57:50 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by thumbstruck
The "vamp" is also called "kaholo" in hula, allowing the dancer(s) time to get in position for the next verse.
"Kaholo" is not synonymous with vamp, it's a particular hula step. It's just the side-step that is most commonly used during the musical turnaround between verses. |
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thumbstruck
Ahonui
USA
2168 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2012 : 04:53:18 AM
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| Thanks, Gregg. My 2 left feet prevent me from being an authority. I just referred to various "songbooks" I've observed while jamming and drew a quick but inaccurate conclusion. Could it be conjectured that the "vamp" is played for the "kaholo"? Plus, it helps orient the musicians. |
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Retro
Ahonui
USA
2368 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2012 : 06:20:12 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by thumbstruck
Could it be conjectured that the "vamp" is played for the "kaholo"? Plus, it helps orient the musicians.
Yep.
Where it really gets fun is in the kahea - the calling out of a few words from each verse, to be certain that the musicians are going to be singing the same verse that the dancers are dancing.
Sometimes, there's a wee battle over who is calling the "correct" verse. In most cases I've seen, it's the dancer who is "in charge" - but they usually defer to the musician if the dancer is just popping up as a special guest of a well-known player.
But more often, the musician can't hear what the dancer has said for kahea, so by default, the musician "wins." A lesson to all dancers: be strong and firm in your kahea! |
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hwnmusiclives
`Olu`olu
USA
580 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2012 : 06:49:38 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Retro
quote:
Originally posted by thumbstruck
Could it be conjectured that the "vamp" is played for the "kaholo"? Plus, it helps orient the musicians.
Sometimes, there's a wee battle over who is calling the "correct" verse. In most cases I've seen, it's the dancer who is "in charge" - but they usually defer to the musician if the dancer is just popping up as a special guest of a well-known player.
But more often, the musician can't hear what the dancer has said for kahea, so by default, the musician "wins."
If we use hula kahiko as the model, then the musician always wins. Is it not the role of the ho'opa'a to call the next verse to be danced? If the ho'opa'a wants to chant the third verse over and over and over again, that is the prerogative of the ho'opa'a. Sure, the dancers are going to be pretty miffed, and it would likely not occur except in cases of amnesia or some form of demensia. But the power of the hula/mele connection has always been in the word. The mana lives in the word.
Typically, musicians yield the right of way of the kahea to the dancer because every dancer didn't learn every verse to every song ever written. The musician does not wish to embarass the dancer. In other words, the musician should try harder to listen when the dancer shouts out the next verse.
But that is courtesy - not a rule.
~ Bill
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Edited by - hwnmusiclives on 02/06/2012 06:50:32 AM |
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Retro
Ahonui
USA
2368 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2012 : 10:49:53 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by hwnmusiclives
Typically, musicians yield the right of way of the kahea to the dancer because every dancer didn't learn every verse to every song ever written. The musician does not wish to embarass the dancer. In other words, the musician should try harder to listen when the dancer shouts out the next verse.
But that is courtesy - not a rule.
Not only that (see the bolded portion of the quote), but a musician should always strive to NOT be a distraction from the dancer(s). The attention of the audience should be on the dance, no matter how famous the musician. |
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Ambrosius
Lokahi
132 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2012 : 11:26:15 PM
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Can play any kine as long as it fit
So just as long as it fits ... no rules for duration. On ukulele I were told two beats II7 - two beats V7 and four beats I. |
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Ambrosius
Lokahi
132 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2012 : 03:02:58 AM
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quote:
Also will need to wear your hair like all of us
I did check with my barber. The only alternative within a reasonable budget, was to go for SirDuke's style.
An other alternative was to start wearing a hat, like many of you guys seems to do.
Trying to go for my all time slack key man's style, would be a disaster, according to him, - no matter how much money I would be willing throw after him. He was afraid I'd go into a permanent 'bad hair day' condition.
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PearlCityBoy
Lokahi
USA
432 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2012 : 07:38:58 AM
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If was me, I'd wear one hat instead of looking like Duke  . I'm trying to keep the hair that I have for as long as possible.
Aloha,
Doug |
Edited by - PearlCityBoy on 02/07/2012 07:39:10 AM |
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Beginners
