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wcerto
Ahonui
USA
5052 Posts |
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thumbstruck
Ahonui
USA
2168 Posts |
 Posted - 02/14/2012 : 05:21:11 AM
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| The human ear loves to hear resolution. D7 to Gmaj. Try ending a song on a 7th and it sounds unresolved (commonly done as a musical joke). Even worse is ending on a dimished chord. |
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Retro
Ahonui
USA
2368 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2012 : 06:10:18 AM
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| It's that classic major 7th-minor 7th progression that usually makes me fall for a pop song; that's a combination that says "poignant" to me. |
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slipry1
Ha`aha`a
USA
1511 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2012 : 07:29:30 AM
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| When I took ethnomusicology, I discovered that a seventh chord elicits a demand for the root chord - e.g.: G7 -> C in western (NOT country and western) music. I like songs that move from major to minor, with descending progression. Example" "If" by Bread, although the words are among the dippiest I've ever heard. For Hawaiian music, there are songs like "Pohai Ke Aloha", "Pua Lilia" and "Ku'u Ipo I Ka He'e Pu'a One" that move me. |
keaka |
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wcerto
Ahonui
USA
5052 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2012 : 10:07:59 AM
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| So why do we look for that resolution that Kory talks about. Is it innate or is it a learned expectation in western music? One time (the only time) that we knew of live Hawaiian music coming to the Cleveland area, it was back in 2006 -- Patrick Landeza and Cyril Pahinui but they were on the bill with the foremost Egyptian piano player and composer who just happened to be a professor emeritus at Kent State university. OMG. When the Egyptian guy played, it hurt my ears. Seriously. It was the most dischordant sounding music I have ever heard. Cyril and Patrick had to play a couple pieces with this man. OMG. If that didn't turn people on to the beauty of Hawaiian music and slack key, I don't know what would. The difference between the Egyptian music and the slack key was HUGE. It seemed even sweeter than it usually did. I have been thinking ever since then if an Egyptian person heard the ki ho`alu, would he have thought is sounded awful just because it was not something he was used to? |
Me ke aloha
Malama pono,
Wanda |
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Retro
Ahonui
USA
2368 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2012 : 10:32:35 AM
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The particular type of resolution that our brains want to hear is certainly learned from what we are exposed to. Keaka/slipry1 has studied a wide range of music from around the world, and can tell you that traditions that sound dissonant to us (like gagaku - ancient Japanese court music, for example) are "chicken skin" in other cultures.
While I deeply love many kinds of music using Western harmonic structures, from classical to jazz to Hawaiian, my twisted brain also enjoys music that takes me on unexpected journeys, one reason why some contemporary classical compositions and unfamiliar sounds from other human traditions often appeal to me. I like the (to me) unusual, right alongside the familiar.
That's why I also admire musicians who take a traditional foundation and try new ideas with it. That's what musicians and composers have been doing for centuries, and it's how we get the varieties of music we have at any time. (Look up information on how Stravinsky's "Le Sacre du Printemps" was first received by audiences.) Performers today are trying radical ideas that will be mainstream, even old-hat, a couple generations from now. Doesn't diminish the traditional and familiar to do so, but it keeps music alive, evolving and growing. |
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hwnmusiclives
`Olu`olu
USA
580 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2012 : 04:43:09 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Retro
That's why I also admire musicians who take a traditional foundation and try new ideas with it. That's what musicians and composers have been doing for centuries, and it's how we get the varieties of music we have at any time. (Look up information on how Stravinsky's "Le Sacre du Printemps" was first received by audiences.) Performers today are trying radical ideas that will be mainstream, even old-hat, a couple generations from now. Doesn't diminish the traditional and familiar to do so, but it keeps music alive, evolving and growing.
And they will take crap for it while they are alive, and they will be revered for it long after they are dead.
So perhaps the lesson here for budding musicians is to take the crap as a compliment.
Here is a long list of most worthy crap-takers in Hawaiian music history:
Sonny Cunha
Johnny Noble
Andy Iona
Alvin Kaleolani Isaacs
Lena Machado
Richard Kauhi
Eddie Kamae
Kahauanu Lake
Robert and Roland Cazimero
Peter Moon
Tony Conjugacion
Zanuck Kapala Lindsey
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Edited by - hwnmusiclives on 02/15/2012 04:43:27 AM |
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Retro
Ahonui
USA
2368 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2012 : 07:04:11 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by hwnmusiclives
And they will take crap for it while they are alive, and they will be revered for it long after they are dead.
Indeed. That is why I respect both those who bring us the valued traditions of the past - keeping it alive for us to hear and to learn from - as well as those willing to risk ridicule by following their soul's impulse to build upon those traditions and develop something new and different.
Would people be happy if EVERY novel published today were written ONLY in the style of, say, Jane Austen or Charles Dickens? Yet some people demand a slavish bond to the musical styles of past masters. Let Gabby be Gabby, let Sonny be Sonny, let Cyril be Cyril, let Makana be Makana.
(And a special note to thank Bill for mentioning Zanuck Kapala Lindsey, one of the best innovators in Hawaiian music today.) |
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hwnmusiclives
`Olu`olu
USA
580 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2012 : 09:46:57 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Retro
[quote]Originally posted by hwnmusiclives
(And a special note to thank Bill for mentioning Zanuck Kapala Lindsey, one of the best innovators in Hawaiian music today.)
(1) I had to mention some living crap-takers
(2) I am his biggest fan. He is my hero. He has absolutely no fear.
I would mention also a group of youngsters that call themselves "Ke Kauoha: The Jazz Project" who - if they would get off the stick and make a CD - would also quickly become crap-takers. They already are based on their live performances. The interesting thing about this group, however, is that it is comprised of musicians also already widely known for their faithful rendering of traditional Hawaiian music. Nobody doubts the qualifications of guys like Halehaku Seabury-Akaka* (of Na Hoa), Kapono Nailiili (of side work with Kuana Torres), or Ioane Burns (formerly of duo with Hoku Zuttermeister and now of Na Palapalai).
*If I were a journalist, I would have to admit here that my affiliation with Mr. Seabury-Akaka runs a little more deeply than my admiration for his music as he was also the best man in my wedding.
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Edited by - hwnmusiclives on 02/15/2012 09:51:40 AM |
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slipry1
Ha`aha`a
USA
1511 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2012 : 10:54:29 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by wcerto
So why do we look for that resolution that Kory talks about. Is it innate or is it a learned expectation in western music?
Wanda - The resolution is so old that it might as well be innate. Since most of us are surrounded by music all of our lives, we learn the resolution at an early age. The old ballads those of us who are familiar with Appalachia know often end without the resolution, which bugs people not used to it.
One time (the only time) that we knew of live Hawaiian music coming to the Cleveland area, it was back in 2006 -- Patrick Landeza and Cyril Pahinui but they were on the bill with the foremost Egyptian piano player and composer who just happened to be a professor emeritus at Kent State university. OMG. When the Egyptian guy played, it hurt my ears. Seriously. It was the most dischordant sounding music I have ever heard. Cyril and Patrick had to play a couple pieces with this man. OMG. If that didn't turn people on to the beauty of Hawaiian music and slack key, I don't know what would. The difference between the Egyptian music and the slack key was HUGE. It seemed even sweeter than it usually did. I have been thinking ever since then if an Egyptian person heard the ki ho`alu, would he have thought is sounded awful just because it was not something he was used to?
[/quote] Egyptian (and other Arabic/North African) music has the reolution but uses scales and modes not common in European based music. Those modes sound discordant to most of us not familiar with them. imho, the use of these modes in modern jazz is what turns some people off. btw, think of "Pretty Polly" or the fiddle tunes "Kitchen Girl" or "Cluck Old Hen". People unfamiliar with Old Timey music find them discordant, too.
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thumbstruck
Ahonui
USA
2168 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2012 : 04:33:14 AM
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| Modes, scales, meters, heart. Some languages sound "better" to some ears than others (contrast the "click" languages of Southern Africa with Italian or French for contrasts). Still, the full range of human emotion can almost be expressed in each one. Music is communication. |
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Admin
Pupule
USA
4551 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2012 : 05:08:28 AM
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Interesting article about technique and music theory. I think that it is difficult to define or even speculate a "formula for commercial success."
There are a lot of factors that make you have chicken skin. If the vocal performance is good enough, the lyrics might not even matter... chicken skin. If the lyrics are moving or even if the back story of the song is personal or heartfelt... chicken skin.
Great music is great music... but even that, is a moving target. LOL. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, right? |
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hwnmusiclives
`Olu`olu
USA
580 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2012 : 07:25:44 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Admin
There are a lot of factors that make you have chicken skin. If the vocal performance is good enough, the lyrics might not even matter... chicken skin. If the lyrics are moving or even if the back story of the song is personal or heartfelt... chicken skin.
You introduce an interesting concept that is not merely tangentially related to this forum: the question of kaona.
In the oral tradition of Hawaiian music, the performer very often concerns himself/herself with "composer's intentions" - singing the song exactly as the composer intended it to be sung, understanding why the composer wrote it and who it was written for, and - whenever possible - the hidden meanings and stories within the song. Some performers seek out this information because the tradition has taught them that the right to sing the song is privileged to only those who seek out this information - that if you learned the song from sheet music or some folio in which the song was contained, you are disrespecting the composer by singing or recording that song. But some further argue that this additional information on the background of the song that can be revealed only by the composer aids in the performance and intrepretation of the song. One might argue... Who actually does the interpreting of the song? The performer? Or the listener?
Louise Rosenblatt, a researcher in the field of the teaching of literature, puts forth a theory that a piece of reading does not contain all of the information that is required to interpret it. She sees the interpretation as a continuum. She asserts that there is reading for pleasure - or the "aesthetic" - and reading strictly for meaning - or the "efferent" - and that all reading falls somewhere in between these extremes. Rosenblatt views reading as a "transaction" between the reader and the text. And this interaction between reader and text will always be different because we will always bring to bear our own "schema" - or set of life experiences that are unique to only ourselves. In other words, it is possible for the same exact words to mean two different things to different people.
So if we look at music as just another form of text, how much of the responsibility for the meaning lies with the composer and how much lies with the listener? Alvin Kaleolani Isaacs wrote "He Nani Helena" for Helen Owens, wife of his friend Harry Owens. Do I need to know this to enjoy this song? Can this information possibly inhibit my enjoyment of this song because I have already been told what to think about when hearing this song - Mrs. Helen Owens - before the first note is even sung? Is it possible for this song to make me think of my wife Helen? How about my aunt Helen? Or might this song make me think of a special someone who isn't named "Helen" at all? If we all bring to bear our own experiences when hearing the song, how can there possibly be a formula for producing "chicken skin?"
The blogs and music rags are skewed. Adéle has sold a record number of singles and albums. But 11 million is not the sum total of people in this universe. Obviously somebody - or millions and millions of somebodies - do not get chicken skin from Adéle. We're just not hearing from them.
But it should also make us question the importance of having all of this background information about a song before we perform if in the end somebody else's background information is going to more greatly inform the interpretation of the song.
The best book I have read on music and emotion is "The World In Six Songs" by Daniel Levitin in which he posits that there are really only six universal themes for songs which have resonated throughout the ages and across cultures. Perhaps every story has already been told after all.
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walterotter
Aloha
United Kingdom
20 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2012 : 08:03:52 AM
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i don't have a clue who Adele is and I stay well away from science when it reduces everything to paint by numbers. For me music played by numbers I can hear a mile off, real music is as natural as breathing and I'm reminded of a nod to the genius of Duke Ellington when someone said "Duke lifts is finger, three horns make a sound, no one knows how he got that sound . . ."
The essence of real music for me is in the freshness taking a song or a tune out of the rim to explore the possibilities, as very much a novice player and appreciator of Hawaiin music I love to sit down and explore the nuances and tones within tunes, the inner heart beat particularly love playing something by Johnny Almeida though it may only be my interpretation I get the feel of some ancient church and a tack piano from his tunes, it is that spiritual meaning I hang onto though I ain't big on religion more the church of huck finn and a lazy river rolling down to the sea.
Scientists are a dime a dozen, as probably are multi million sellng artists, good as they might be real folks make music for back porches and country suppers what Van Morrison once called 'the real soul people' bless 'em, they won't make alot of money but they'll sure have a lot of fun . . .
Mike
quote:
Originally posted by Admin
The blogs and music rags are skewed. Adéle has sold a record number of singles and albums. But 11 million is not the sum total of people in this universe. Obviously somebody - or millions and millions of somebodies - do not get chicken skin from Adéle. We're just not hearing from them.
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'the lights in the sky are stars . . .' |
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Why do we like songs that make chicken skin?
