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wcerto
Ahonui
USA
5052 Posts |
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Auntie Maria
Ha`aha`a
USA
1918 Posts |
 Posted - 07/08/2012 : 04:21:36 AM
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Mahalo for this, Wanda -- I'll never say "paniolo" again! 
Nor will I say "`okole"...
1. n. Anus, buttocks (less polite than lemu). ʻŌkole maluna, Hawaiian translation of English toast “bottoms up” [this expression is condemned by older Hawaiians as vulgar and indecent because of the sacredness of the human body in, old belief].
...when "elemu" is it:
n. Buttocks. |
Auntie Maria
===================
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TerryLiberty
Lokahi
USA
207 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2012 : 05:53:37 AM
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Wow! Even Ray Kane uses "paniolo" in his version of Ulupalakua.
Go figure. |
Terry
Olympia, WA
Forever a haumana |
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Russell Letson
`Olu`olu
USA
504 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2012 : 06:09:08 AM
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Etymology and lexicography are not exact sciences--they are observational and statistical, which means that dictionaries report the usages, spellings, pronunciations, and range of meanings that their makers find in the field and (where applicable) the printed record. The Advertiser story says that Claude Ortiz cited "three old-timers" as authorities, explained their understanding of the etymology of "paniolo," and added that he thought that "a non-Native speaker of Hawaiian" working on a dictionary was responsible for applying Spanish gender rules to a Hawaiian borrowing. But if he's referring to the big Pukui-Elbert dictionary, Mary Kawena Pukui was not only a native speaker but from the Big Island (where the term presumably originated), and non-native-speaker Samuel Elbert learned Hawaiian from her (at least according to the infallible Wikipedia).
In the newspaper piece, Mr. Ortiz and Danny Akaka Jr. report on preferences among "old-timers" on the Parker Ranch. I wonder what print sources reveal about the history of the form of the word, and what current Big Island usage is beyond the Parker Ranch (or on Niʻihau). There are plenty of examples in English of words changing or falling out of use because they sound like a taboo term--try using "niggardly" in any public situation and see what happens.
In any case, we have on this forum not only native speakers but folks like Keola Donaghy and Amy Stillman, who have the linguistic expertise to help us figure this out.
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Edited by - Russell Letson on 07/08/2012 06:10:47 AM |
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wcerto
Ahonui
USA
5052 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2012 : 09:31:56 AM
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I consulted Keola Donaghy who said:
From the newspaper Ka Lama Hawai‘i, May 9, 1834, page 4:
ka nehiwa, o ka okoleke, o ka olelo haole, o ka olelo paniolo, o ka olelo…
It's a shame that Lee didn't bother to talk to people who could have provided a counter point to her contention. The earliest reference to "paniola" I found was 1876. There are just over 500 instances of "paniolo" in the text of the newspapers that is available, only 3 to "paniola", but it appears they are reprints of the same letter by the same gentleman, from O‘ahu.
Sad they chose to blame this on Dr. Elbert.
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Me ke aloha
Malama pono,
Wanda |
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Russell Letson
`Olu`olu
USA
504 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2012 : 10:08:53 AM
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This is why reporters (and any researchers) ignore the multiple-source rule at their peril. (Second-sourcing is for reporters on daily deadline; all others need to take the time to quadruple-check.) When I brought up the link to the article, I noticed that while it had appeared nine years ago, I had not come across its central assertion anywhere else before or since. And while I'm not an expert on Hawaiian language matters, I did put in a few years teaching undergrad courses that dealt with linguistics, lexicography, patterns of usage, and things like folk etymology, so alarm bells went off.
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Edited by - Russell Letson on 07/08/2012 10:09:46 AM |
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thumbstruck
Ahonui
USA
2168 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2012 : 1:31:21 PM
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The more we learn the less we know.
Human speech is, at best, inadequate to document the human experience. Language changes incrimentally, words lost, pronunciations changed, stories barely remembered. When a language is exchanged, even more worse! |
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hwnmusiclives
`Olu`olu
USA
580 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2012 : 07:27:53 AM
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I found the article interesting but by no means gospel - for the reasons Russell so eloquently elucidates as well as for strongly held beliefs of my own.
I have referred to "insider/outsider theory" here before, and it applies here. As an outsider to the culture, I need to be considerably more careful as a practitioner of Hawaiian things. If there is a long established practice - even if it can be proven wrong - it is but for the outsider to go along with it. All of the academic approach in the world that you can muster when learning a Hawaiian song will not endear you to your audience when they say "you're singing it wrong." For example, since Keola Donaghy's masters thesis on John Almeida and the subsequent release of the Almeida CD on Cord, I have understood - thanks to Keola - that in the song "'A'oia," Johnny had intended for the line to be sung, "Na'u 'oe, na'u no e lei ha'aheo." For decades prior to this, Hawaiians had heard - and sung - "Na'u 'oe, na'u 'oe e lei ha'aheo" - simply repeating the phrase "na'u 'oe." I have stopped trying to sing it correctly for whenever I did, one of the beloved kupuna - usually an entertainer - exclaimed that I was singing it wrong. What is one supposed to do? Get into a spitting contest over recent developments and research? All of the data in the world mean nothing when the audience is prone to confirmation bias. And correcting the kupuna will earn you nothing but a kick in the elemu.
So this is a go-along-to-get-along situation. I am not going to start singing "paniola" because I am going to get creamed every time I do.
But as long as we're dispelling long-held misconceptions (or trying to), I would love for musicians to stop using "pa'ani" to mean an instrumental solo and use instead the appropriate "ho'okani." "Pa'ani" means to play with as a toy, ball, or game. "Ho'okani" means to play an instrument. Musicians instinctively know this. You have never heard anyone say, "Come to the pa'ani ka pila!"
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Admin
Pupule
USA
4551 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2012 : 09:05:48 AM
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quote:
As an outsider to the culture, I need to be considerably more careful as a practitioner of Hawaiian things.
Very true. We all try our hardest to do what is respectful and right.
As I see it, most of the time, you are damned if you do, damned if you don't. Is it Molokaʻi or Molokai? 
Ask two kumu and you might get two different answers. Uh oh. There is no hard and fast way to KNOW what is correct.
Generally, I can only do things as I was taught. If kumu told me to do it a certain way, I will do it. After that, if enough evidence says to do otherwise, I need to carefully consider that and make a decision. Do you listen to your kumu? Do you follow the latest research (or newspaper article)? Do you do whatever the audience is used to hearing? Well, even then, the direction you take must be evaluated on a case by case basis and ultimately comes down to a personal choice. |
Andy |
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hwnmusiclives
`Olu`olu
USA
580 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2012 : 10:18:11 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Admin
quote:
As an outsider to the culture, I need to be considerably more careful as a practitioner of Hawaiian things.
Very true. We all try our hardest to do what is respectful and right.
As I see it, most of the time, you are damned if you do, damned if you don't. Is it Molokaʻi or Molokai?
Ask two kumu and you might get two different answers. Uh oh. There is no hard and fast way to KNOW what is correct.
Would this be a bad time to raise the "onaona" and "umauma" issue again?
If not, then I wonder if instead somebody could help me pronounce "Mä'ili," the town on the leeward coast of O'ahu? 
You are "damned if you, damned if you don't." What you cannot do is let these issues discourage you into completely giving up - a place I have been far too many times.
As a native speaker (and lifelong student) of English, I don't know many people who have perfected it either. We simply aren't as protective of it.
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wcerto
Ahonui
USA
5052 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2012 : 11:35:33 AM
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I do remember discussing the onaona issue with Kihei de Silva and his esteemed scholar daughter, Kahikina. They both said that there is evidence that the old timers, the Hawaiian speakers who were no scholars in the language but who were speakers long before many of these scholars ever were twinkles in their daddies' eyes were saying ona`ona not o-now-na. Me, I would sing the song the way I have heard someone sing that I consider very knowledgeable about both the language and thte mo`olelo of a mele.
Just for the resons that Bill and Russell say -- I have butchered the language plenty with my West Virginia twang -- just like in English, drawing out my vowels just because, well, that's the way I was "drawn" to quote the Roger Rabbit movie.. People have no trouble telling me when I am mispronouncing something or even when I choose the wrong word. I am sure in something as "big" as this, I would have been corrected.
And plus.... Uncle Kihei says "paniolo" and if he was wrong, Aunty Mapu would give him the raised eyebrow or even the stink eye and NO ONE wants that, believe you me!
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Me ke aloha
Malama pono,
Wanda |
Edited by - wcerto on 07/09/2012 11:36:05 AM |
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TerryLiberty
Lokahi
USA
207 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2012 : 2:25:33 PM
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| So now all we have to do is settle on the plural. I vote for panioli. |
Terry
Olympia, WA
Forever a haumana |
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Admin
Pupule
USA
4551 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2012 : 3:55:19 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by hwnmusiclives
What you cannot do is let these issues discourage you into completely giving up - a place I have been far too many times.
Agreed. Better to do than not do at all. If everyone stopped, then we all lose. |
Andy |
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Retro
Ahonui
USA
2368 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2012 : 4:25:24 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by TerryLiberty
So now all we have to do is settle on the plural. I vote for panioli.
Sounds like a dessert option. I'll have two, please. |
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malihini
Aloha
36 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2012 : 10:11:09 AM
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While being respectful to and preserving history, one might also accept that nothing in life is static. It's a fact of nature that everything evolves including language. As for trying to pronounce things correctly as stated above, what to do when everyone you know pronounces a word incorrectly? Do you come off as a smart aleck haole or do you just go with the flow. Examples I have in mind: Waialua and Wahiawa. I have to date never heard any of my local friends pronounce it Wa-hi-a-wa or Wai-a-lua, but as 'Wai-lua and Wa-hiwa', yet I'm pretty sure the former is the correct pronunciation.
Sussi |
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TerryLiberty
Lokahi
USA
207 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2012 : 11:37:16 AM
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Sussi:
Interesting about "Waialua" and "Wahiawa". I'm a haole with no Hawaiian background except having been stationed there with the navy for a little over three years in the early 70's. I do remember then that the locals I knew pronounced both those words with four syllables. Perhaps the common usage of the language has evolved in that respect over these 40 years? It certainly has with English. I also remember that people used to pronounce "probably" as "prob-a-bly", not "prolly". We all get a bit lazy perhaps?
Aloha. |
Terry
Olympia, WA
Forever a haumana |
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Paniola
